All About Android, Episode 571, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Jason Howell (00:00:00):
Coming up next on All About Android. It's me, Jason, Howell, my co-hosts Ron Richards and Huyen Tue Dao, and our guest Mishaal Rahman from esper.io. Android 13: Is it coming to a Nest Hub near you? Also Android 13, throttling your apps, but is that a good thing? Is Nothing's phone 1 something to get excited about? Do we care? The Xiaomi is throttling its new phone for geek bench. The same thing that Samsung did, do we want messaging interoperability? Should I stop asking questions during this tease? All About Android is next!

Speaker 2 (00:00:38):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:42):
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Jason Howell (00:01:12):
Hello, welcome to all about Android episode 571 recorded on Tuesday, March 29th, 2022, your weekly sourceful latest news, hardware, and apps for the Android faithful I'm Jason Howell.

Ron Richards (00:01:25):
And I'm Ron Richards

Huyen Tue Dao (00:01:27):
And I'm Huyen Tue Dao

Jason Howell (00:01:28):
Oh yeah. And we are the three Amigos. Right? Good to see y'all and yeah, I know. You know, that's actually, I have to say that's a, that's a pretty darn funny movie.

Ron Richards (00:01:41):
That is a classic film. Let me tell you that is, I mean, you got comedy giants in it. It is, it is a wonder, well written one of my favorite shots of all cinemas in that film. I love it.

Jason Howell (00:01:52):
It's easy to think that you can write that one off, but when you watch it, it like, no, it's great. It's it stands the test of time. It's pretty classic. Joining us, not one of the actors from the Three Amigos. Oh No, It's Mishaal Rahman from esper.io. Welcome back to the show, Mishaal.

Mishaal Rahman (00:02:11):
Thanks for having me, Jason.

Jason Howell (00:02:12):
Yeah, always good to get you on Mishaal, if you didn't know, was at XDA Developers for quite a while now at esper.io, senior technical editor, also author of the Android edge newsletter also co-host of the Android Bytes podcast, which I think, I think the last time we had you on correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think we've had you on since you started that podcast. Tell us a little bit about it.

Mishaal Rahman (00:02:39):
Yeah. So Android Bytes is a podcast, we don't cover like news stories or anything that, we focus on. We pick a specific topic that relates to the Android ecosystem or the Android platform. For example our episode that went up this week was about the safety net at station API and how developers can use that to detect, you know, if their applications are running in a environment, a software environment that's tampered with or not, and how app developers and hackers and modders bypass that API. We also talk about things like Android auto, Android Automotive, we think talk about things at a broad high level. We try to educate users about all different app aspects of Android and not just like app of the week or use the week.

Jason Howell (00:03:24):
Right. I mean a lot of things that really, that really

Mishaal Rahman (00:03:26):
There's definitely gotta yeah,

Jason Howell (00:03:27):
Yeah. With what you guys do at esper.io, Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Of course. Your co-host friend, friend of the show, David Ruddock as well. So right on congratulations. You you are obviously keeping very busy, not only because of the podcast and the newsletter, but you're writing a ton, which we're gonna be talking about in the top news block. We've got a bunch of your articles to talk about. So why don't we dive right in and learn a whole bunch that we didn't already know about Android 13 it's time for the news... Burke's giving up,

Ron Richards (00:04:12):
Which is the irony is, is that he didn't turn his mic on. So there you go.

Jason Howell (00:04:16):
Yeah. I'm here in the studio. I didn't even hear a whisper bit. I think Burke was just like, you know what, today it's another not feeling it. Yeah.

Ron Richards (00:04:24):
It's fun. Which,

Jason Howell (00:04:25):
You know what? We all need a little break from time to time. So it's awesome.

Ron Richards (00:04:28):
Listen, 571 episodes without a break.

Ron Richards (00:04:32):
We take a break, we take a break at the end of the year. That's not, that's not accurate, but we do 50, 50 weeks in a row.

Jason Howell (00:04:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well so yeah, so Android 13 let's dive into this and actually Mishaal, you wrote an article that kind of seemed to happen right about the time that nine to five Google had an article, they kind of seemed to play hand in hand together nine to five. Google had an article last week that was about out a detachable tablet form factor for the nest hub for the nest smart display, like a future smart display, some coming sometime this year, I believe. And then you wrote about changes in Android 13, that seemed to pave the way for this in some capacity. So I guess tell us a little bit about you discovered, cause you were kind of the, you know, of all the sources that I read, who, who dive into, you know, what's going on in like future versions of Android. You're, you're the most prolific like you really seem to get in there and really pick apart the mores that a lot of other people are missing. What did you discover about Android 13?

Mishaal Rahman (00:05:42):
So whenever you look at new features in new versions of Android whenever Google releases a developer preview, they announce a couple of changes, but often times there's a whole bunch of under the hood platform changes and new APIs and new features that they introduce, but they don't really tell you why they're introducing them. And if you dig deeper and peel back a few layers, you, you kind of are able to piece together the why. And usually it's related to some hardware or product they're planning to release. It's just the way it is. They, they try to do, they do a pretty good job of hiding, covering up that fact. But you come to these conclusions based on, you know, what product they're working on. And in this instance, 9to5, Google came out with a report that as you said detailed Google's Google Nest plan to release a detachable tablet slash smart display form factor.

Mishaal Rahman (00:06:33):
And coincidentally, I was piecing together a whole of APIs and documenting a whole bunch of new features that were coming and Android 13. And I was like, Hmm, a lot of these seem like they're perfectly suited specifically for this device and this form factor and knowing Google's history of releasing features that are, you know, coincidentally or not coincidentally with a new product they're working on, you know, that helped me put two and two together. So that's why I'm confident that a lot of these features that I mentioned in that article are probably related to this upcoming product.

Jason Howell (00:07:11):
So what, what exactly ties these things together? Like is this, is this an API, like a discovery of a certain like API or a couple of APIs that would facilitate this? Like what I guess, where, where I'm coming from is what is, what would prevent Google from doing this prior to Android 13 that is now enabled with Android 13 and a, a future detachable tablet version of the Nest Hub.

Mishaal Rahman (00:07:40):
So I think the, the two biggest blockers for releasing, you know, these for releasing Android as a smart display OS would be its support for, you know, big displays. Prior to Android 12 L there wasn't much in the way of, you know, adapting or native support for adapting our applications to big, to big screens and launching applications on big screens, 12L Tove, introduced a task bar, which is being massively reiterated on Android 13. And then in 13, we're seeing the introduction or the, the revitalization of screensavers, which is a feature that was introduced all the way back in Android 4.2. That feature is getting a whole lot of love from Google this time around none of which they've announced, it's all hidden under the hood, but if you were to peel back, you're able to see that a lot of the features that they're working on are proprietary to Google devices.

Mishaal Rahman (00:08:36):
So none of this, a lot of this won't be available in the AOSP build of Android 13. But it will be available in Google specific like system UI applications. So that happens, that makes you wonder why is it, why are these features being built specifically for Google products? It doesn't really make much sense for a smartphone to be docked and constantly displaying a screensaver or in the same vein, doesn't make much sense for a foldable to be docked and displaying a screensaver. So that, that makes you question, like, why is Google doing this? And then, oh, low and behold, Google's working on a detachable tablet slash smart display Nest device and, you know, the pieces, the puzzles pieces fit together perfectly.

Jason Howell (00:09:20):
Yeah. So I guess the question that came up to me as I was kind of like reading through, you know, both your article and the nine to five Google article and kind of thinking about these synergies between these two efforts is we've been hearing about, you know, a, a tablet coming, tablet, hardware coming from Google, is this the tablet like, is, is this the tablet or are we, you know, or is there gonna be a Pixel tablet alongside this? Like, I guess, I guess it depends on whether this is, I mean, if it's a smart display, it's not tablet first, but it is a tablet at the end of the day. If, you know, if this is to be, if this is accurate I don't know. What, what do you think, Huyen, do you think we're gonna see multiple tablets coming from Google or, or would this be it, or I don't know. What are your thoughts here?

Huyen Tue Dao (00:10:09):
Yeah, I, I, I honestly don't know. I mean, like we, we've kind of been waiting around long enough for all these advices. I don't know. I don't, I don't really see a cadre, a Cadra cadre. Hmm. Whatever that word is, a, a fleece, whatever the plural of tablets are. I don't really see it coming. I, I do think that that, that this is actually pretty interesting this like detachable tablet which is kind of like in and of itself a pretty unique, large screen. So it might be a, I think what would be really interesting to see is, you know, kind of like a standard, you know, tablet, but then also kind of taking the idea of large screens and really bending it. Cause I, again, we're, we're kind of looking for the killer use cases. Did I say bendit, like I said, bend, like

Ron Richards (00:10:52):
I was, I was hoping we would merge tablets and and fold folds and foldables

Huyen Tue Dao (00:10:56):
That be agree? Yeah. Well, yeah, like maybe some kind of just exploring the, kind of the use case for large screens. And I think something that we've mentioned, but that is a good point that maybe doesn't get enough attention is smart displays, smart screens and kind of alternative to what we traditionally think of as tablets are even foldable. So I think it'd be interesting to see Google release at least some kind of, I guess, standards or kind of like killer, not killer, but unique use cases for the large screens that kind of like allow you to see what the possibilities are. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I, I'm interested to see what this is in particular and how this shakes out.

Ron Richards (00:11:31):
Well. Yeah. I, and I, I echo that. I, I like, I wanna see what the possibilities are, but also like the idea we've talked about, you know, I I've dubbed 22 as the year of the tablet. Right. Like, I feel like we're gaining momentum here, large greens, like this all kind of stuff happens. But if you think about, if Google's gonna reenter the space, are they just gonna do what they did previously? Are you gonna try to do something different? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And if you, and if you have an entire line of smart displays that already exist out there, how do you switch that up? How do you inject some energy into that line? You make a, a detachable tablet display. Now you've got two, a two in one, so to speak, right? Yeah. And it's like, I mean, that's really, really compelling.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:12:07):
Yeah. It's drawing direct lines. Yeah. It's like drawing, like, I mean, like it's, it's, they basically kind of mutating, hybridizing kind of all the different, like large screens, all the different experiences they have and trying to make it coherent is maybe like a little bit too positive of a word, but yeah, really just kind of drawing a very distinct line. I mean, it's both a, it's both a, it's both a smart display and a tablet. So I just think that's really interesting. Isn't not what I would've expected, but I like it.

Jason Howell (00:12:36):
Yeah. Well, I wonder how fully featured of a tablet it actually is. You know what I mean? That's fair. If it's a smart display that's running on Android and can do some tablet things, or if it's like a, Fullon like Android 13 tablet that when it docks in that display, it kicks into, you know, the mode that turns it into like the full fledged smart display. So it actually serves both, both needs equally. You know, like if I put my pixel on the pixel stand, it automatically kicks into a mode that kind of has some smart display, you know, functionality to it. Is that what we get, you know, here with this tablet you know, obviously we don't, we don't know the answer to that, but

Mishaal Rahman (00:13:20):
So I actually have a prediction in that vein. Yes. I I'm predicting that this device will run a full fledged version of an Android 13, which would be a first for Google prior, previous nest hub displays. The first generation run a very, very stripped down version of Android, which they call the Google class platform. And then that was migrated over to FIA OS. But the second gen UB continues to run that stripped down version of Android called Google cast. And I believe that's based on Android seven new get, so it's ancient and you it's so stripped down, it doesn't contain Google mobile or services. It doesn't really contain anything that you could use to install regular and Android applications on. But I'm thinking this device will include a full-fledged build of end Android 13 in order to facilitate, you know, using it as an actual tablet that you can detach and, you know, run your various applications on and then dock it and have it sit there as a smart display, like you're previously used to.

Mishaal Rahman (00:14:19):
And that's why they're adding a lot of these features. And I'm thinking that the way Google would market this product, that'll be two use cases. One will be the bedside use case. So you say, I, I have a smart display. I have a second gen hub next to my bed and that monitors my sleep. But once I get outta bed and leave my bedroom, you know, that display just sitting there is useless to me. It's not doing anything when I'm outside of the room. Whereas this hypothetical, this detachable tablet once it's sitting on the dock and then once I'm outta bed, say it's a Sunday, I could detach it and just go around the house and just LA sit on the couch and browse Reddit or whatever. And some of the features that are being added suggest that Google is trying to, you know implement this bedside use case, as well as implement the family room use case.

Mishaal Rahman (00:15:09):
One of the APIs that I saw Google introduce, or they're working on it's called ambient context, and this API would allow applications to provide event detection for things like snoring and snoring. And what's it called coughing. So if you recall the sex and gen nest hub actually supports something called sleep sensing. And one of the things that it detects is snoring and coughing. So my idea is that this API is being introduced in enter 13. So Google can reimplement this feature when it introduces this device because whatever feature, whatever way they implemented it before wouldn't work, once they port full fledged and or 13 over, and then in the media room use case, there are other features that point to Google wants this to be the center of the family room. There's a media type of transfer feature that Google is working on that would let you move your smartphone close to the device, and then you can transfer whatever media is being played back from your phone to the device.

Mishaal Rahman (00:16:15):
So if you have a tablet docked in your living room, you could just move your phone close to it, tap it, and then it would transfer playback from your phone to that device, which obviously will probably have much better speakers. And there are other APIs like cross device calling, which Google has been working on that would you to, whenever your phone receives an incoming phone call, it could seamlessly transfer the audio to the doc tablet, which doesn't have a telephone capability. So there are a lot of features that I've spotted in Android 13 that seem to hint at, you know, supporting these various use cases in the bed room and in the living room. And I think that's the direction Google is taking with these features. And maybe that's the way they'll implement it in this nest product.

Jason Howell (00:17:02):
Yeah. And part of what you wrote about you know, alluded to the fact that like Android 12.1, we're used to that being the, oh, Google cares about tablets. Again, here's a bunch of things that it really great for tablets that appears to be the foundation on top of some of the really cool, you know, and more interesting kind of tablet influenced functionality that seems like is going to come with Android 13. So you could be right, Ron, you're the tablet, although have we had the year of the tablet before in Android world, maybe,

Ron Richards (00:17:34):
But you could have another year of the tablet. I mean,

Jason Howell (00:17:36):
So every year it's new decade tablet. Yeah. It's a new decade, right. Every, every 10 years we can have at least one year that qualifies as the year, the year of the tablet. So we're in that right now. All right. When you got, you got Mishaal's other awesome article.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:17:54):
Yeah. So I, I like, I love the title of this article, Mishaal, because it, so the title of Mishaal's article is Andrew 13 will add a setting to throtle internet speeds. And if you kind of just read that as given, you might be wondering why would they do that? But there's actually pretty good reasons to do that. Mishaal, if, if you don't mind, like kind of maybe just highlighting, why does this setting exist? I mean, I'm excited about it, but I'd love to kind of hear you what, hear your thoughts on why this is a good thing to be adding. Cause we've talked about a lot of bad throttling lately in the few weeks, but why could this be a good thing?

Mishaal Rahman (00:18:32):
So the official reason that Google is adding a setting thorough internet speeds is for app developers. Currently, you know, a lot of developers probably live in countries or have access to much faster internet speeds than the average worldwide internet connection. So that poses a problem. Whenever you try to mock a user's device who lives in maybe like you know, an Asian country and they have maximum of like one MVPs down the speed, which is like, you know, painfully slow, how do you, how do you test the, your application's behavior when your internet speed is a hundred MVP and things load instantly versus like users who has one MVPs and like things load painfully slowly, you might have unforeseen problems that like, you know, something loads too slowly, and the application continues to, you know, move on without everything loading fully. And there might be some like unforeseen bugs and in order QA test that, you know, you need some way to mimic that internet condition.

Mishaal Rahman (00:19:36):
So right now there are some really convoluted ways you can do that. There's a funny solution on stack overflow. Someone mentioned putting your phone in a literal microwave, don't turn it on. Of course, cuz that would destroy it. I saw that, put it in a microwave. So that would completely block any signal. And of course there are some, there are saner options like using, launching the Android emulator in Android studio with the command line to to, to throtle the speed manually. And you could also hotspot your phone or your device or another device and do that. You could VPN, you know, there, there are many ways, but finally Google is adding a native option in developer settings. Presumably that will let you just set a cap on the internet speed.

Jason Howell (00:20:17):
That sounds insanely useful.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:20:19):
It is so useful. And I, I can definitely attest like that. This is something that, you know, I think a lot of us on dev teams kind of find our own ways around. Like for example, in Trello, you guys, you y'all, don't get to look at it, but we actually have a panel where we actually inter inter intercept our network calls and either add delays or add like mock exceptions to try to catch some of this. It's not the best solution it's not consistent. And I keep forgetting to turn it off while I'm actually, deving something where I, I don't want any exceptions to kind like, like kind of like fake exceptions to come in, but it is like as you mentioned, kind of really important. And I think we, I mentioned a few weeks ago about kind of like one of the great things about Android.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:21:00):
And one of the thing, things that I'm most proud of is being an Android dev is that Android is kind of meant to be for everybody and is in places where yeah, you don't have great connectivity. They're still like I was looking at a GSMA state of mobile internet connectivity report from 2021. And in places like which they call low to middle income countries, there's still like a large prevalence of 3g, even 3g in places. And as we kind kind of like keep getting better Android features as we keep like doing more and more in terms of like what we do in the net in terms of streaming and video and all that kind of stuff, there's always gonna be kind of a gap in connectivity and what you kind of wish you had and what you actually had. And actually the dev it's kind of easy to forget that very often will, you know, be deving under like our opt more like here I am in my office with my wifi and certain things are hard to test.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:21:51):
Like I actually was testing image, loading this, this, this week on a, on a feature that I'm working on. And I kind of forgot to work on the error screen because very like when, when, when is my image loading on error, unless like maybe my wifi blows at. So it's an easy thing to kind of buy I pass, especially for a lot of deaths, if you're in like kind of ideal situation. So having this as an easy way to kind of go through a checklist of, okay, here's how I deal with latency. Here's how I deal with like throttle connection speeds and, and, and having it be a consistent and nine microwave, non microwave involved way of testing. These things is super important and kind of, again, part of like the hopefully Android ideal of developing for and developing for and optimizing apps for all kinds of, you know, connectivity, all kinds of like locations and all kinds of like users around the world.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:22:39):
And even like in, you know, high income countries like here, you still have, you know, opportunities where you might not have great internet speeds. Like I think a big example we always talk about out is even in say New York where Trello's headquarters, whereas people go into the subway and you don't always have internet on the subway. So it's kind of like a high tide lifts, all boats kind of thing. When you have the ability to, when you have the ability and drive and kind of like the discipline to, you know, develop and optimize for these conditions. So this just makes it easier. It, it really just makes it easier. Sometimes it it's, it's really strangely hard to test for suboptimal conditions. Yeah. So yeah, I'm, I'm actually pretty excited about this and hopefully will make it easier because I, it is, it, it is like ideally the right thing to do, but like in your day to day life, when you just wanna get crap working, you don't always think about these things. So hopefully this will will be, make it easier and also make it so that I don't keep leaving on insert exceptions into my network calls, setting on our dev panel. So we, so again, like it'll be less us having to manufacture our own solutions and kind of relying on Google stuff. So I actually was really excited about this. Nice. And yeah.

Jason Howell (00:23:47):
Well, and anytime that you are resorting to putting your device into a microwave, that's probably like a signal that like, yeah, there's probably a better way. Google could probably figure out something, that'll save some phones from getting newed in the microwave.

Ron Richards (00:24:04):
It's just not good for the, it's not good for the display. It's not good. Like there's

Jason Howell (00:24:08):
A lot that it's not good for. Turns out, look

Huyen Tue Dao (00:24:11):
Up for your microwave. Right. I mean, that can't be good for your microwave or your food to

Speaker 6 (00:24:15):
Have not for any of the plastic that's built with.

Jason Howell (00:24:18):
Yeah. In general, just don't put your phone in your microwave. It's probably gonna turn out down don't if you do that. Yeah.

Ron Richards (00:24:24):
Yeah. If anything, here's a, here's a microwave pro tip lower the power level and cook longer. Oh, right. So, yeah. Cause so, I mean, I don't know if that would affect the phone at all in that way, but I find when I'm reheating food, I'll drop the power level to 60% and do it for like four minutes. You get a nice even cook as opposed to, you know, center being cold and the outside being hot. So like, you definitely don't want the center of your phone to be hot.

Speaker 6 (00:24:49):
It really depends on how much the phone is made up of water actually,

Ron Richards (00:24:53):
Too. Right. True.

Jason Howell (00:24:55):
There's another,

Ron Richards (00:24:55):
You can get, you can, you can wet a paper towel and put it over the phone. Right. Exactly. And I mean, that works with dumplings that works with your standard rice, you know, things like that. So maybe that works with your phone too.

Jason Howell (00:25:06):
So yeah. If, if it has thermal cooling, it's it might work better than if it doesn't, you know, you,

Ron Richards (00:25:10):
I just wanna warn anyone, anyone who's listening the past several minutes was all parody and jokes. Yes. Was not serious. Please

Huyen Tue Dao (00:25:17):
Not do

Ron Richards (00:25:17):
That. Don't

Jason Howell (00:25:18):
Please your phone, please, please with wave. Yes. Not, not just to say that you did just, just

Ron Richards (00:25:23):
Don't. No. Yeah. Don't not. Don't don't try to get email the week.

Jason Howell (00:25:27):
That's right. No, no, we don't. You will not get email

Ron Richards (00:25:30):
By sending a photo. You will not get email the week. Thank you. By setting a photo of your phone. Yeah. Can we do it in backwards? Like the Beatles? Yeah, we don't, we don't wanna see any stories of people microwave their phones, please. Just

Jason Howell (00:25:43):
Don't sure. For sure. Right. We have a whole lot more. This was just one of those weeks where like story after story. It's like, ah, this is good. This is good. So we've got some really great hardware news coming up next in hardware.

Ron Richards (00:26:09):
Oh boy. Oh boy.

Jason Howell (00:26:10):
Oh Ron, I need you be excited.

Ron Richards (00:26:14):
Let the puns begin because I am getting all excited about nothing. Can I tell you that it's, that it's even more confusing for me, by the way that Carl pays new company is called nothing because, and I've talked about this, but like one of my favorite more recent bands is also called nothing. And so, and so like now I need to, not only do I need to deal with the language of going to see a band called nothing, but I also need to now make the adjustment as to when I'm talking about nothing to my wife or to someone else, whether I'm talking about the phone or the band, it's very confusing. But yeah. And

Jason Howell (00:26:51):
Then when you get, when you actually pick up a nothing phone and then you go see the band, nothing, nothing.

Ron Richards (00:26:56):
And take my picture with the nothing heroin. Yeah.

Jason Howell (00:26:58):
World is gonna explode

Ron Richards (00:26:59):
Be my favorite world. My favorite word play was that nothing playing in Brooklyn at a venue called elsewhere. And so I told my wife, I said, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna go see nothing at elsewhere. And she just looked at me and she's like, I don't know what you're saying anymore.

Jason Howell (00:27:12):
This is not even, yeah, this

Ron Richards (00:27:14):
Is just nonsense. So Right. Well, anyway, so we got some, nothing, we got something outta of nothing. Yes. Where Carl's Carl pays company finally announced the company's first smartphone smartphone with some details to share. I thought they were gonna share their whole roadmap by the way. We'll get to that in a moment. But so the phone is called and I don't even know what to call this phone. It's called phone one.

Jason Howell (00:27:40):
Yeah, I think, I think that's how you'd say it. Phone phone one,

Ron Richards (00:27:42):
But you got, you got a whole hold your hands up and cup your hands. Like you're making parentheses around your head for the number one phone one. Yeah.

Jason Howell (00:27:49):
One is not it's spelled out. It's the number one. Yeah.

Ron Richards (00:27:52):
Yeah. It's phone space op left parentheses number one, right? Parenthesis it.

Jason Howell (00:27:58):
Just roll off the tongue. Doesn't it? Yeah. Oh my

Ron Richards (00:28:01):
Nothing phone one. So there it is. It's coming summer 2022, which cannot come fast enough. Let me tell you everybody. And the promo video that they showed on this announcement, they alludes to some light strips on the back of the device, but Carl paid did not comment on their function. Nothing also released shots of the OS, but don't get too excited because it was just a lot of dot matrix text that matrix text, and a lot of black, white, and red like

Jason Howell (00:28:29):
A launcher, you

Ron Richards (00:28:30):
Know? Yeah. Gone are the days of like the, of like the pretty photo of flowers or anything like that. This is very minimalist and simple. And I, I actually kinda love it. They Carpay did do an interview with the verge and some details came out of that specifically around nothing's acquisition of essential, which as was speculated, was all about the trademark. They didn't know if they'd want to call the company essential or nothing. And in the end they opted for nothing. So they spent all that money for nothing. Ha ha. And and car pay compared nothing to apple and it, and this, this is, this is the only thing that kind of worries me about all this. And I wanna get everybody hear what you think about it. He compared nothing to apple in its aim to compete with Apple's walled garden approach to ecosystem. Yeah. So does that mean that they're trying to position nothing as another apple or are they trying to break down the walled garden of apple? What do you think?

Jason Howell (00:29:22):
I think that what, from my understanding ending from the interview, it, it was almost like car pay is looking at Apple's wild garden approach for how all of their devices are sync synchronous together. Yeah. That, you know, that kind of enjoy that interoperability, that easy access to each other and, and the deeper, deeper functionality that is enabled when you have control that whole ecosystem. My understanding from the interview is that he was looking at that and saying, we kind of want that for nothing, so,

Ron Richards (00:29:56):
Well, you gotta pay, you gotta, you gotta pay something. Yeah. Just can't get that for nothing. I'm sorry. These jokes are impossible to avoid everyone. I'm sorry. It's just

Jason Howell (00:30:06):
So, I mean, you know, maybe there is something to be, be concerned about with that, unless you are the type of person that enjoys, you know, this kind of like seamless ecosystem play, which I know, is there a way to have, have your cake and eat it too? I, I'm not, I'm not so sure, but

Huyen Tue Dao (00:30:24):
Yeah, it does seem like, especially as we, you know, I, I feel like as we keep talking about large screens and white Android tablets don't have the same, you know, success as iPad, that, that one of the things that does keep coming up as I kind of anecdotally talk to people is the integration is kind of wild garden where everything seems to fit together. And it seems to be something that Samsung more or less is trying to fall lead on, you know, with having their, you know, Cadra, there it goes again, using that word again. Oh,

Ron Richards (00:30:53):
You cannot avoid that to

Jason Howell (00:30:54):
Her.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:30:54):
I, I, I wanna use it. That's my word tonight, you know, trying to like develop a, a family of products that are both ran it tightly together, but also hopefully fit tightly together, including, you know, things like an iPad ish, huge butt tablet. And it seems like this is kind of, again, kind of echoing that sentiment of, Hey, maybe what is making the apple ecosystem, you know, successful is this integration is control. And I've heard my friends say that like, well, I buy an iPad because it works with all things. I buy the, a watch because yeah, it works well, other things, and that is very appealing. I thought it was interesting. I think at the end of the art, they talked about possibly white labeling to like, like, like, so, so instead of just making their own walled garden, they might end up being your landscaper and making, you know, different companies, their own walled gardens so that it wouldn't just be, yeah, one more waled garden, but a kingdom of waled gardens that

Jason Howell (00:31:47):
You,

Huyen Tue Dao (00:31:48):
Yeah, you,

Jason Howell (00:31:49):
You bring, that's a, that's a really good point and something that I'm not super familiar with about Shay's business, which was the comparison there. Mishaal, are you, are you familiar with this aspect? I like, I'm just, I'm just not super dialed into SHA me, you know, their business model and everything. We talk about their phones on the show and, you know, it comes up from time to time, but I wasn't aware of this like white labeling approach that Shami is apparently involved in it. Are you?

Mishaal Rahman (00:32:17):
Well I am aware that there are a lot of Shami branded products that aren't actually made specifically by Shami the company. They, they, they like pretty much license their name out to companies that make products and under the me brand. So there's a lot of products that specifically weren't made by Shami, but that will carry their branding. And I believe that's what most people are referring to.

Jason Howell (00:32:44):
Hmm. Okay. So, and it might not necessarily have to do with phones because it it's true, but Shami has their hands in a lot of different different products, not just devices, not just phones. So yeah. Interesting. I guess we'll find out what what that amounts to might amount to nothing.

Ron Richards (00:33:08):
I mean, seriously, they write themselves, they write themselves, everybody. It's just a,

Jason Howell (00:33:12):
There is capable really.

Ron Richards (00:33:15):
That's a good, yeah.

Jason Howell (00:33:17):
Oh, just gonna say somewhat, somewhat a disc. ILOG. So they didn't spend all that money for nothing. The purchase was essential, so

Ron Richards (00:33:25):
That's

Mishaal Rahman (00:33:26):
Bravo. That's a good one. There you go. So I gotta say seeing all the, the hype around nothing just reminds me that CarPlay is a marketing genius. Like he's pick up a lot of what he learned from OnePlus. Yeah. Which just kind of aggravating aggravating. When I was at XDA, you know, having to cover all this news, the, the drip, drip, drip of here's one thing here's a teaser for our teaser for our

Jason Howell (00:33:47):
Information. Yes, exactly. Like

Mishaal Rahman (00:33:49):
He's carried that over tremendously. And even though we all recognize he's doing it, it still works. Like people are still coming well, keep, but let small little Tibit

Ron Richards (00:33:57):
Keep in mind though, that, that early on in one pull plus in Carl pays days of one plus one plus could not get out of their own way when it came to marketings and did numerous poor taste thing. So hopefully he's learned from that as well. And, and like, it seems that nothing is taking the I don't wanna say higher road, but like the more pretentious route with brand in terms of no, which is, which is, which is a page for the app, which makes sense, given that. Right. And so, you know, we'll see how it all plays out. I mean, I am very intrigued. I wanna see this phone, I wanna play with it. I'm tempted to get it. So we'll see. We'll see what happens.

Jason Howell (00:34:32):
We'll see what happens. Yeah. Well, I was just saying that, you know, we do talk about SHA me from time to time on the show and this this next story has do with cha me, although not necessarily in a good light, Samsung me remembered not too long ago, a few weeks ago was kind of embroiled in this throttling controversy. And now apparently a SHA me's turn, although it isn't their first time doing this, but geek geek benches, John pool actually took Twitter to claim that Shami is throttling its performance on certain apps said, here are the results from a Shami me 11 running geek bench and geek bench disguised as fortnight single core scores, 30% lower multi core scores, 15% lower in the fortnight build is, so then this is basically essentially what we were talking about, you know, a few weeks ago, as far as what Samsung had done, although there, there was a much larger list of apps that were, that were studied.

Jason Howell (00:35:33):
And I know that a police has done some, some work around this to kind of look into look into this, this charge by by John pool and, and test it out. And they were saying as well, they're seeing drops when they disguise the geek bench app as other apps. So there you go. Is this just a thing that phone companies do? And we're just like, at this point real, oh, wait a minute. They all kind of do it. Not, you know, and, and again, is it wrong to throttle or is it wrong to not tell someone that you're throttling Mishaal, I'm curious to know your take on this. Cause we we've all talked about the Samsung controversy to great length. What do you think?

Mishaal Rahman (00:36:14):
Yeah. So benchmark cheating, as you might, as you might have heard has been a thing for years it's been around, you know, every company, you know, we've been calling out companies doing this for, for years now, one plus Samsung, Shami, you know, most of them have done it at one point. And I think the reason they do it is obvious is because people care about benchmark numbers. And even if you see the marketing campaigns, they run in, in like China or India, for example, they, they actually put like their Antu two or their key bench scores as part of like their slides, when they're announcing a phone, you know, say they, this phone has the highest NTU, two score ever, and that's actually something they're marketing on. So the fact that users care about these scores is the reason why, you know, companies go to the effort of cheating on these benchmarks and there's not really many repercussions for them to do so.

Jason Howell (00:37:08):
Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, getting, getting banned from geek bench I mean, it's, it's something, but how

Ron Richards (00:37:17):
It's, it's not nothing.

Jason Howell (00:37:18):
It's not nothing I was trying not to go there.

Ron Richards (00:37:22):
I did.

Jason Howell (00:37:22):
You did. Yeah. I mean it, but it, it's not much of a consequence. I, I suppose. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, because, because when we, when we heard about Samsung, like the internet was on fire, or at least rather the Android internet was the, shall me news, how many days old is this now? And it didn't didn't seem like people have been nearly well, okay. It's a day old, two days old,

Ron Richards (00:37:48):
But here, but here's the thing though, is that, is that you, I'm trying to put this, how do I put this nicely and not super insulting to show me you stop anyone on the street and ask them if they know Shami, you're not gonna get as much brand recognition as you will Samsung at least here

Jason Howell (00:38:04):
In the states here in the states. Yeah, that's fair.

Ron Richards (00:38:06):
Right. Right. I mean completely. Yeah. That, that, so like, you know, it just, you just because of the, the trade imports and, and all that nonsense and all that sort of stuff, Shami is not as well known, you know? And I can't speak to what the reaction to this news is in other markets. And maybe they don't care. Maybe we're just a little too uppity, a little too looking for you know, things to freak out about. Yeah. You

Jason Howell (00:38:27):
Know? Oh yeah. I'm always looking for things to freak out about. Yeah.

Ron Richards (00:38:30):
I'm a little too uppity. I can

Jason Howell (00:38:32):
Tell you. So anyways, that's, that's SHA me's controversy and we'll see how that that all plays out when you got this exciting news.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:38:45):
Yeah. Yeah. So from one of, you know, the Internet's favorite leakers in Meemers John Prosser, we've got some news that the pixel six, eight could still L debut at IO 2022, but it still would be delayed in terms of launch according to John sources, because of, again, the global chip shortage, which we've all are very sadly aware of the last few years. Yeah. It looks like though we will hear something of what the six a will be at IO 2022, but won't be looking to get them into our are great little grab little phone person hands until July 28th. And according to process source, we also might be looking at a tease, not necessarily a full announcement, but teases of the pixel watch, which also is delayed and what, and while we might just get a T that I O 20, 22, we might be looking at an October launch.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:39:35):
So the pixel watch would be launching alongside the pixel seven and seven pro. And just to kind of like, you know, round out the rumor mill, we got some kind of ideas of what a pixel six a might look like. Of course, maybe probably also carrying the tensor chip, which we talked a little bit about last week in terms of like putting a dent into the kind of worldwide share of high end. It's gonna probably have a 6.2 inch Ola display, a nice 12 megapixel Sony main camera and a 4,800 milli amp battery with 30 wat fast charging. And for the pixel watch, we're kind of thinking in the rumors, hearing in the rumors, rather, that's gonna have a round display use the same XO w 90 w nine 20 chip set that other Samsung watches like gala, like the galaxy have 32 gigabytes of onboard storage, LTE support and quote, next generation Google assistant. And it sounds like the rumor is that it will be priced a bit higher than the best Fitbit watches, which would put it around 300 to 400 us. You all excited, you gonna, you, you get, you get in your watch, you're getting your wrists kind of like warmed up for that pixel watch at all.

Jason Howell (00:40:42):
I'm just curious more than anything, like, I'm curious to see it. I'm curious to see Google kind of finally release their own wearable, but I mean, time and time again, I get a watch, like even the galaxy watch four, like I have that, it's a really great watch. I just never wear it. It like, I just don't think wearables are for me. Apparently I can't be motivated enough to continue wearing them more than like a couple of months. So I'm curious. I just don't know if it's gonna be my device, but I don't know. What about, what about y'all?

Huyen Tue Dao (00:41:16):
Hmm I'm same. I, I just, whatever you just said, Jason, I, I generally like the idea of where I think there's always, especially as like an app developer, I think there's a lot of op interesting opportunities there to kind of bring certain like capabilities, certain experiences, certain kind of conveniences to these are through where OS, but me personally I'm about the same. I get, I kind of get hot about it for like a month or two. And then I'm just like, okay. Back to like, yeah. You know, my very stripped down like fitness tracker. That's really all I needed. It's, it's a fun curiosity. And, and as like a developer, like the possibilities, but personally

Ron Richards (00:41:52):
It's, and, and I just gotta say, like, I have, you know, I've been off the wearable bandwagon for years now just because partially because like I'm just uninterested and I don't have, and it doesn't, it doesn't align with my lifestyle as it is, especially, you know, post pandemic where working from home totally home. Yeah. I'm literally at home 90% of the time now, you know what I mean? Like I don't need, I, I, I don't need to track my steps to the kitchen. I don't need to, I don't

Jason Howell (00:42:19):
Need to, although aren't, I'm curious, aren't you curious?

Ron Richards (00:42:22):
No, yeah, I don't need, I don't need to know my heart rate. I need, I need to get text messages. Like it's like, so it's just like, if it, now, if I was, if it was me, when wearables came out, you know, Jesus, Jason, 10 years ago, you know, you know, nine years ago you know, young bachelor living in San Francisco, you know, like that sort of thing, like yeah. On the, go on the move, this is great. This is so cool. But now it just doesn't, I don't care.

Jason Howell (00:42:43):
I don't care. Yeah.

Ron Richards (00:42:43):
So I'm more interested in the, in the in the pixel six a cuz my sister needs a new phone. So

Jason Howell (00:42:48):
The pixel six a that is rumored to not, no longer have the headphones Jack. So keep that in mind as well. Yeah. The a series apparently is saying goodbye to the headphones, Jack. I mean, it was just bound

Ron Richards (00:43:00):
Bound to happen. I've I've gone on record, but it's it's, it was time to say goodbye to the he Jack years ago. So yeah.

Jason Howell (00:43:06):
Yeah. We know how you feel about it, Ron. How do you feel about it, Mishaal? Is that something that you're, that you're missing at this point? Or have you gotten over it?

Mishaal Rahman (00:43:15):
Yeah, I'm over it. I mean, my daily driver is a pixel six pro and before that you know, I, I use these says phone eight, which had a headphone Jack, but I didn't really use that often. Yeah. Because I have a whole bunch of Bluetooth headsets, so it didn't really bother me.

Jason Howell (00:43:31):
Meanwhile, now it's like, it's like trendy to use well headphones again, apparently. So, you know, the, the world works in mysterious ways. Once everybody gets used to the wireless thing, it's like, well, no, actually I want the wired thing.

Ron Richards (00:43:46):
This

Jason Howell (00:43:46):
Is just how it goes, people. All right. Let's let me tell you something, we've got some really great new news coming up in the app section and that's right up next. Yeah. We got a one, two punch in apps news this week, starting with, with you Ron.

Ron Richards (00:44:12):
Yes. All right. So this one I actually somewhat agree with. So EU lawmakers are crafting the digital markets act and it could have big ramifications for messaging both on Android and iOS press release by the EU. We know the EU loves to legislate. The EU says that quote, unquote, gatekeeper companies such as meta apple, et cetera, would be required to make their apps IOP interoperable with smaller messaging platforms at the developer's request. This would ensure cross platform and cross app communication by bias users. And they would find a company up to 10% percent of its global revenue for first time infringement up to 20% for repeated infringement. Wow. If the laws passed it's, it's expected to come into effect in October. And honestly this could be the, the break in iMessage that we've been hoping for. You know, like, you know, you know, similar to the EU regulating Microsoft than breaking IE, you know, internet Explorer out, out of being, you know, kind of a man, you know, mandatory for users of window windows.

Ron Richards (00:45:19):
And it's funny because it's funny that this came up. Cause I recently had a conversation with someone about the whole iMessage thing and they said, well, what about, well, use WhatsApp? What about WhatsApp? That's a closed platform. I'm like, you know, you're right. Like, oh, oh gee. I wonder if only there was an open protocol that worked with various different applications and phones and things like that that allowed you to have choice. Like I'm actually in support of that, you know, like, and if we can come up with some sort of, and it's also really, really interesting seeing WhatsApp, sponsoring, you know, the Oscars and sponsoring like media events now under the, like, they have a commercial where it's talking about like how SMS is not encrypted and anyone can read SMS messages, but on WhatsApp it's end, end encryption and it's private and it's privacy and all this sort of stuff. It's, it's similar to just WhatsApp is taking a page out of the IMEs iMessage playbook in creating a false sense of you have to use this for this reason. And it's just continuing that kind of, you know, market, you know, boundary setting. So if the E if this EU law kind of breaks that all apart, I will be curious to see how apple and meta respond and whether it creates changes that only work in Europe.

Jason Howell (00:46:28):
Yeah, there is that question, right? We'll do that, but only you get it cuz we have, have to where you are and everybody else is still gonna have to. I mean, but, but at the same time it seems like the us and the EU are very much, you know, riding in the same direction as far as this stuff is concerned. So if that were the case, I, I would guess that the us would be there soon after, but maybe the companies would take the higher road and be like, you know what, you're right, fine will make this easier for everyone should also point out that like it used to be very cross platform, you know, messaging years ago, Yahoo messenger, Facebook messenger, windows, live messenger, AOL, instant messenger Gmail chat, you know, all these services in one way or another, what, what was it Jabber?

Jason Howell (00:47:12):
Or, you know, they, the X, M P protocol, they had ways where these things would interate. And at some point they all realized that if we don't make it interate, it actually helps us, you know, it ensures customer lock in and you know, it promotes all these other things that we can do with our services integrated into them. So this, you know, the article, but on the verge points that out that this was a choice, this wasn't a technological barrier. Although the, the involvement of encryption in these services, I would guess would create a little bit of a, of a, of a snag or the, a challenge in the interoperability aspect of things. But Mishaal, what do you think about all about all this?

Mishaal Rahman (00:47:58):
Yeah, I think just, you know, the EU is kind of taking a really heavy handed approach to this problem. As you mentioned, like interoperability between services that offer encryption is going to be a technical technological challenge. Yeah. Like how are they going to solve two messaging service, like signal, you know, all your chats are encrypted. How are they going to be interoperable with every other messaging service out there? You know, the fallback in signal, just SMS. But you know, if I'm sure every app could just add SMS and say they're interoperable with each other.

Jason Howell (00:48:28):
Yeah. That's question that I had. That's a really good point. Right. Yeah. And, and if that's the case then yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean that really, it's not really a solution. It's not a solution. It's definitely not the solution that I think some of us would hope for, but it might be the loophole and they might be like, well, yeah, okay. At least that's something, you know, SMS is pretty ubiquitous. So that, that solves the problem. I don't know.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:48:54):
Yeah. Especially with the timeframe that they're given. I think for, I think, was it the basic interoperability they have to implement in three to four months? Is that right? Like,

Jason Howell (00:49:02):
Yeah. It's seemed really fast. I was,

Huyen Tue Dao (00:49:04):
I was sweating reading that. I was like, oh my gosh,

Jason Howell (00:49:07):
You know, this thing that's really taken us like years to figure are out. We need you to do it in three months or else, But Hey, maybe that would motivate them to actually get it done. I don't know. But, or,

Ron Richards (00:49:20):
Or just, or they could just pay, I mean, like get this, the other thing is that like, they can choose not to comply. Right. Yeah. And, you know, but, but that said 10% of global revenue and 20% for repeat is like, how do you ex how do like that that's kind of bananas in terms of a fine, like 20% of Apple's global revenue,

Jason Howell (00:49:37):
Global annual, I should say I left that out, but yeah. Yeah. It's cause

Speaker 6 (00:49:41):
They know the fines don't mean anything to most of the companies.

Ron Richards (00:49:44):
Yeah. Yeah. It's true.

Jason Howell (00:49:45):
Yeah. So, so true. Yeah.

Ron Richards (00:49:47):
So yeah. So Mishaal, when you say this is a heavy handed approach from the EU, I feel like the EU exists in a heavy hand. Like that's, that's, that's where, that's where they do their best work. Right. So it's it's crazy.

Jason Howell (00:49:58):
Yeah.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:49:58):
Yeah. It's always, it's always weird cuz it feels like there there's like a good intention here. Just like with a lot of the other kind of like laws in the recent years that E has put out like, you know, GDPR, there's a, there's a good, there's a good intention. There there's a good idea there, but it, sometimes I'm seeing like the actual technical reality is a little bit more comp, more complex or more make developer, sweat, like, like the actual, like logistics of it haven't been thought through. There was like that one law. That was it about another privacy law about like H I, I can't remember. So I'm not gonna keep talking about it, but it does seem kind of heavy handed. Although it's like, again, two minds, like this is kind of probably where we want ideally things to go, but probably not the avenue with which we wanted them to kind of come to us from.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:50:44):
So yeah, but I mean, in other news of laws, making companies do things and kind of knocking on the gatekeepers door and then saying, excuse me, the Google play is actually going to pilot a third party billing option with debut partner for this kind of new pilot program called user billing choice with Spotify. So this is kind of following up with, of course, as we've, you know, talked occasionally about in the last year with Fortnite and apple and most more recently with South Korea, basically putting out Antigo Antigo mandates kind of basically demanding that ma that Google make alternative billing systems available. This is going to be a pilot per program for basically offering alternative third party billing options side by side in Spotify. So Spotify is the debut partner and it's kind of interesting that this is kind of where we start with the Spotify, because it seems like, you know, it, in the case that Google has to do this, like this is, this is where the direction of things are going.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:51:47):
So Spotify was called by Google a natural first partner, because of course they are one of the largest subscription based developers they're everywhere. And not just in terms of region of where users are, where subscribers are, but also in terms of a wide range of devices and form factors as a good, basically testbed for this pilot program with, sorry, I lost it. User user billing choice. And again, Spotify's kind of been at the forefront of a lot of this kind of basically pushing back on, you know, these, the, the larger developers like app, like mostly apple, but to some degree to some, to a larger extent is also Google as well. All Spotify has been part of the coalition for app fairness, which includes of course, epic games but also match group, which is the developer of Tinder and hinge. And basically kind of, again, pushing back and trying to rest a bit more control out of the hands of apple and Google over their respective stores.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:52:46):
And this coalition has also been doing things like backing the open act app, mark Mo and markets act, which again is just again, trying to get a little more nominally choice and you know, just third party options for users. And of course, a lot of this is about money. As, as noted, you know, apps are commission charge commissions ranging anywhere from between fit of two to 30% on subscriptions and in-app purchases. So hopefully, you know, with the user billing choice, you know, as a developer, you might not have to pay as much commission on third party payment platforms, but I mean, maybe, maybe not as noted in South Korea where Google has already had to follow these, the reduction in commission was only 4%. I actually read that incorrectly. I thought it was the commission was down to 4%, but it's really a reduction of 4%.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:53:38):
So it's, it's kind of working, but it's not like all of a sudden, you know, as a developer, you, if you're on a third party platform, you just get all the monies again, it's a process. It, it looks like Google is looking to really kind of build this program experiment with it in with Spotify. And so we'll see how this goes. This isn't this isn't out yet. It is being, I think it said the Spotify anticipates launching the first iteration of this user choice billing later this year. And yeah, we'll, we'll see how it goes. I mean, I don't know, is, is this a good thing? I mean, I, I can't help, but think it's a good thing, but how do you all feel about, I guess, how this is rolling out and do you, do you think that this will be a effective and lasting change so that we don't get situations? Like, again, like Fortnite V apple or even, you know, kind of like other things that, that we've heard about? What, what do y'all think?

Mishaal Rahman (00:54:35):
I like user choice.

Jason Howell (00:54:36):
Yeah, exactly. Choice is good.

Mishaal Rahman (00:54:38):
Oh boy.

Jason Howell (00:54:38):
More choices better, but how do you feel Mishaal? Are you, are, are you breaking with the choice thing? Oh boy.

Mishaal Rahman (00:54:44):
Oh boy. Oh boy. This is a, this a quagmire like Google chose that term user choice very specifically because yeah, I know Google like apple, they're doing everything they can to stave off like government regulation. Yeah. They already got hit with that in South Korea, but one thing that I noticed in I think it was the, the Netherlands that introduced a requirement that dating apps can implement their own, you know, in-app purchase services. And apple said, okay, we'll let you do that, but we'll charge you 27%, you know, of any dating app sales that use non apple payment tech. And, you know, they already charge 30% if you use their tech. So like, what's the benefit here?

Jason Howell (00:55:24):
That's 3% less companies that's 3% less or in their pocket. That's amazing. I

Mishaal Rahman (00:55:29):
See. Yeah. I see like apple and Google. They're like watching what happens in each, every government and seeing how much they can get away with. Yeah. And, and giving the tiny bit like conceding a little bit to make it seem like, you know, they're fully opening up to everyone like this announcement with a user choice filling with Spotify, they didn't announce the terms. How much is how much is Spotify paying for every payment? They didn't announce you know, how other developers can sign up and how much they'll be charging other developers. Like there's so much they didn't announce. And I'm, I'm really given all the documents and everything that's come out from the app, apple, from the epic fee, apple and epic fee, Google cases. I'm highly skeptical of pretty much anything, apple and Google announce when it comes to payment revenue sharing related.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:56:16):
Yeah. It's, it's worth noting that Spotify, like, as, as you, as you said, Mishaal they didn't really lease any specific details and numbers. Spotify also did not mention any specifics, but they did say that the commission that they have arranged meets their standard of fairness. And Google also mentioned that, you know, while they will offer alternative billing systems that does not preclude service fees. So, you know, it, I,

Jason Howell (00:56:45):
So 27%,

Huyen Tue Dao (00:56:48):
That's where it goes. It

Jason Howell (00:56:49):
Seems to be the going rate. Yeah.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:56:51):
Yeah. So I, I think that's a good point that this could be just a nominal kind of like performative fairness when we don't actually know the details and we don't know what this is gonna progress and there it's a work in progress. So if, if anything, it's good, it's, it's good press to say, Hey, we care about user choice, but how, what, what the end, what the end will look like in terms of commissions and fairness and whether this will be actually be true, true user choice and not just two more crappy options

Jason Howell (00:57:22):
Well,

Huyen Tue Dao (00:57:22):
And are more crappy options in,

Jason Howell (00:57:23):
So some ways this ties in with what we were talking about in the previous story, because the DMA that we were talking about, the digital markets act also has as part of its kind of, you know, list of, of things that they want to implement with this app store requirements that would that would make it so that platforms couldn't require the use of certain service. Right? And so maybe this is a clue getting back to what we were talking about maybe five minutes ago, maybe this is a clue as to what at least Google may end up doing worldwide. You know, if, if there are requirements that tie into this, and I think there, there Spotify news came before the DMA news happens. I don't think that they, you know, it wasn't a reaction or anything too, but it indicates at least a little bit that Google is saying, all right, because you're right, Mishaal, like they are under the micro microscope right now in the EU and in the us and other places, you know, for antitrust investigations and everything.

Jason Howell (00:58:23):
So maybe this is in, in at least an insight into how Google might play this on a global scale, just saying, okay, well, we'll, we'll do this for everybody. Having said that the terms may just not be as great as anyone is hoping. We just don't know yet. We don't know what that's gonna be. And it sounds like we probably won't know for a while. We aren't gonna know at least until the end of the year, but hopefully we'll find out more about this, but interesting. Nonetheless, at least there's change. At least there is some change here because it need, it has needed to happen. I just don't know how much that change is going to amount to hopefully a lot, but I'm not optimistic

Jason Howell (00:59:06):
Right. Coming up next, your feedback, AAA@twit.TV, 347 show AAA. That's where you can hit us up with your with your feedback, with your insight, your reviews, as the case with this first email when you've got it.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:59:24):
Yeah. This comes from Juan de Columbia. And I had to say S in colo in part particular Meine Android. I actually gave a talk in Meine in 16 to they, they actually have a really amazing like developer community down there. So when I saw this was in Columbia, I had to just be like, Hey

Jason Howell (00:59:44):
Android.

Huyen Tue Dao (00:59:44):
Anyway. but that's that that's, that's not, who was, that was not who's mailing us. This was Juan from Columbia, giving us a review of the Shami pad five. Hey guys just wanted to share my three week experience I've had with the Shami pad five, my first Android tablet, before I even got it, I was a bit concerned about the app experience. Hearing most apps for tablets were just expanded phone apps, but it really is not the case. Sure. Apps like Facebook and Instagram are exactly like this, but most apps like YouTube and Ms. Office apps work perfectly. Me UI 13 on tablet is very iPad, like, and has tons of feature to make multitasking easy and productive. It comes with mouse and keyboard support, allowing it to be used to be used mostly without touch. The speakers are awesome. And the display very bright and crispy for video watching. Sometimes you'll run into uttering issues with the UI, but this seems to be an app issue rather than me, U I O S too bad SHA and keyboard, or a bit on the pricing side. But other than that pretty great tablet overall. Thank you so much, Juan. That's really exciting to hear,

Jason Howell (01:00:51):
Not bad. I know, not bad.

Ron Richards (01:00:54):
Look at this. He know he knows yame if I stopped him on the street and asked him about it,

Jason Howell (01:00:58):
He would. So,

Ron Richards (01:00:59):
Yeah.

Jason Howell (01:01:00):
Yeah. 120 hurts display snap, 8 60, 87, 20 milliamp hour battery. I'm trying to find like a converted price for this me pad five. I it's, it's hard to say, cuz they're all over the map, but 300, $400 ish somewhere around there, you know, converted anyways. Right on. I love when people who watch and listen to the show, send in reviews of things, especially when we've not had a chance to, to play around with them or see them. It's great to hear that. So thank you for writing in Juan. Appreciate it. Yeah.

Ron Richards (01:01:37):
Cool. All right. Our next email comes in from Greg and we have no idea where Greg is writing. Come on, Greg,

Jason Howell (01:01:44):
How dare you, Greg?

Ron Richards (01:01:46):
We know what you did. All right. So Greg says I, and listen, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to my, my whole Google nest hub home, whatever device experience. I didn't mean to overshadow the show as much as it is, but these are practical use. These are devices. Right. Great.

Ron Richards (01:02:04):
So so if you watch last week, you saw the, in the past two weeks, we've been talking about the interaction with Google home and how it works and controlling lights and not having the, the Google home talk to you and all that stuff. So Greg says, I also did a deep dive like Ron and had to silence the Google assistant particularly at night. So when I turn the lights off, it doesn't wake anyone. The method I use to talk to the assistant via text, rather than voice on my pixel six, I fire up assistant by holding the power button down, which reveals a little keyboard icon in the bottom right corner. If you tap that, you can then type in your command, which in my case is night for a custom routine to turn off all the lights, Google then replies with her usual response back at you is text. Once you've done this once you've done, once you've done, once you've done this, once the last use commands are displayed above the keyboard meeting, you don't have to type night or whatever. Again, you just tap it. That's clever actually. So if you do like it is learning enough that if you're doing the same response over and over again, it will predictive text us that for you, which is great, which is really cool. This is a great solution. I don't wanna do that sometimes. I just wanna talk sometimes. I just wanna say you

Jason Howell (01:03:09):
Wanna talk if you don't want a response

Ron Richards (01:03:11):
Turn off the lights. So I will say that after a week of doing it, my, my solution of using night mode and the volume go down to nothing after eight o'clock until, you know, until the morning has worked like a charm, it's been FA it's been fantastic. Thank you. I didn't even have to regroup all of my lights into one room, like the other solution. Although I did confirm that my Google home mini in the bedroom, if I say, turn off the turn off the bedroom lights, it just does the ding and then turns off the lights. It doesn't talk. So those two solutions are good. This is another solution. This is great. While we're on the topic, I will share the fact that I recently installed a new light above my garage is very exciting. There was an old motion detector light that didn't work anymore in the house that we moved in. So I got up on a ladder. I took that down, rewired it put up a, a nice, new, very nice light. And then I got to the point and realized that the circuit that, that light was on had no switch, oh, anywhere in the house. And so

Jason Howell (01:04:11):
No.

Ron Richards (01:04:12):
And so I'm standing there looking at it going, oh God, how am I gonna turn this light on and off? And then I realize if I throw a smart bulb in there, yes. I can set it. So what I did was I, I I I've got Phillips hug bulbs in the house. And so, and I've got the hug bridge. And so I put the, so I put an outdoor floodlight in there and then I got it all linked up and on Google home, I set a routine to say at sundown, turn on the light and turn it off at midnight. And now it all works like a charm. It's fantastic. And perfect. Yeah. Very happy. Yeah. So, so Google home, there's some positive there, so

Jason Howell (01:04:46):
Yeah, yeah. Right on. Cool. I love it. And I mean, you could always see when I read this email, I was like, yeah, you could, you could totally do that. But I mean, if you're going to your phone, like, if, if your, if the phone is the solution, then I could always just open the smart home controls. Right. Thing, the thing not have to type anything. It just goes to show everybody has a different way of doing it.

Ron Richards (01:05:09):
But if he has a routine Jason, or if he set up that routine, when he says night, it does everything. Then I see why you'd wanna do that. He's he's done the work to program it, I assume. But you could also set that to be a button on your home screen that just triggers that routine.

Jason Howell (01:05:23):
So yeah, I suppose so, yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Ron Richards (01:05:26):
Okay. So there, there are a lot of lot

Jason Howell (01:05:28):
Of different ways,

Ron Richards (01:05:29):
Lot of ways to skin this cat. Yes. So

Jason Howell (01:05:32):
Indeed thank you, Greg. From nowhere. Appreciate it. All right. We have coming up now the email of the week

Jason Howell (01:05:45):
And it is from TLED PIP, John in Luton, UK. Did I say that right? I hope I did. Awesome. All right. TLE PIP. John says, and it's actually kind of a two parter. First of all TLE PIP. John says my solution to the headphone controls problem. This was in response to an email. I believe we had last week where someone wrote in saying, Hey, I, I have, I like the Bluetooth earbuds that, you know, have the like neck brace that have like all the buttons, but they're all moving to like a single button that does multiple things profile. And I don't like that. What are my options? Well, Tule PIP, John has a solution for you. He says my solution to the headphones. It's just so much fun to say my solution to the he phone controls problem is to use a Bluetooth adapter like this.

Jason Howell (01:06:35):
And he links to the philio B R five says I've been through various in ear and wireless Bluetooth round neck headphones. These adapters, let me choose headphones, earpieces, or even the radio in the kitchen that doesn't recognize my pH my phone on its 3.5 millimeter Jack auxiliary input. Also one can use it as a USB sound hard. And there's a fancy music player with loads of things to tweak. That's a solution that I had not considered, cuz honestly, I didn't know that this existed. So it's the, it's the FIO. Sorry, not Philo. It's the FIO F I I O BTR. Is it FIO or fi? I think

Speaker 6 (01:07:15):
It's

Jason Howell (01:07:16):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:07:16):
I'm familiar with these. They're amazing. Are they?

Jason Howell (01:07:18):
Yes. How do you use them?

Ron Richards (01:07:21):
One

Jason Howell (01:07:21):
Approved. Yeah. Oh, okay. Wow. How do you use it? Tell, tell us how

Speaker 6 (01:07:25):
You use it. Well, it's a headphone the, what I have is a head, a headphone app by them. It's USB. Okay. But it also outputs coaxial digital out also at the same thing.

Jason Howell (01:07:36):
Nice.

Speaker 6 (01:07:37):
Yeah. All their stuff is great. I was just looking at one of their other things that they have on here. It, not that one, but there's like this really awesome portable device. It's like this M 17 thing. Yeah. It's like 1800 bucks.

Jason Howell (01:07:52):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:07:53):
That's awesome. I would never pay that, but yeah, that's what I said.

Jason Howell (01:07:56):
That's pretty, cool's like a music player.

Speaker 6 (01:07:58):
Yeah. Essentially. Well, that's like calling a Tesla a, a battle. Oh

Jason Howell (01:08:05):
Yeah. Oh, so it's like a, a music file player. Yeah.

Ron Richards (01:08:08):
Oh my

Jason Howell (01:08:09):
Goodness. That's all it does. That's interesting. Is this a, a category that you're familiar with Mishaal? I don't know why, but I don't know that I had ever really realized like this Bluetooth adapter thing existed. What about you

Mishaal Rahman (01:08:24):
I'm loosely familiar with it. I'm I'm far from an audio file. So I haven't justified forging on purchasing one of these things, but I have considered it strong in the past.

Jason Howell (01:08:35):
Yeah. Yeah. And actually Virgil and the chat is saying FAO have some really good music players. So you know, apparently this is a brand that just wasn't on my radar. So thank you. Tule pit, John, that was part one of your email of your, your, your award winning email. Part two is a question and I actually have an answer for it, but I thought I'd just bring it up. It'd be one of those things where either we figure it out or, you know, maybe folks listening or watching can have an answer. Tule PIP. John says, I do have a question about Android auto audio sorry, not auto audio Android, I think. Okay. Not really quite sure what he mean. Okay. Android audio is what he said. I think I initially read it as auto in a particular app, an app called vocal pitch monitor.

Jason Howell (01:09:23):
I wanna choose the input source and I've tried various apps from the play store and none of them seem to do it. All I wanna do is use the adapter or the microphone on an earpiece. So it's close to my mouth. This work, this works during phone calls, but otherwise no something like P a V U control and Linux. I'm not familiar with what that is, but I'm sure someone listening is could this be a reason to root my phone? So it sounds like, okay, you're not alone. This could go a lot of directions. Oh yeah. If like bazillions, I have no idea. Okay. Do you, do you have an answer? No, I'm trying to figure out what he's asking. Oh, okay. No, I think I understand what he's asking. So this app vocal pitch monitor, it's an app that analyzes pitch. Right. And so, I don't know.

Jason Howell (01:10:11):
It's, I'm guessing that maybe or to trigger something. No, I think, I think what, John, I think what John is using it for is I'm guessing, you know, maybe you're singing into it and you wanna be sure that you're singing on pitch. And so this is a pitch analyzer and shows you on a graph, you know, how close you are to true pitch and, and that sort of thing, just to guess. And he wants to use a earbud, let's say an oh yeah, you're right. As, as the input source instead of having to hold up the phone or whatever, but apparently the app doesn't allow for that. It, you know, it, it only takes the mic from the phone. And there are other apps in the play store that might, you know smartly route, you know, a plugged in earbud with a microphone into other apps, but the that's not working in the case of this app. So I don't know at a, on a broad scale, on a broader scale, maybe not specific to this app, but have, have any of you heard of the ability of taking like an in the earbud, you know, inline microphone and routing that into apps that are recording audio through the onboard microphone of a phone? Like, is that possible? Is that something that root is going to enable?

Ron Richards (01:11:25):
It's almost like, it's almost like there's rogue amiga who does yeah. Right. audio, audio hijack. They have a application that is like the equivalent of an audio studio routing board, right. Where you can take the audio from one app or a device and send it to another one all through software. I've seen that, you know, obviously, and I, I have the name of it. Hang on. I can find out what that's called, but that that's an, that's a Mac OS app. It's not a right, right, right. It's it's, it's not a, it's not a mobile app. Yeah. Sound source. That's what it's called. So it's essentially, I've never seen, and I'll share this for, just for anybody who wants to care about it. Burke, I'm putting it in the slack it's called sound source by RO MEbA Miba, which basically lets you route audio devices and control all from the menu bar. I've never seen it on the mobile side of things. I would have to, I don't know if it's, if it's something that is able to be done you know, with, or without root. That's really interesting though, but yeah, that I have never

Speaker 6 (01:12:23):
Heard. I have a little bit of experience in this.

Jason Howell (01:12:24):
Oh yeah. What did you

Speaker 6 (01:12:25):
Do? So it really depends usually on the device, in my, or the I'm sorry, the app I, there are many E Android apps that let you use builtin mic, the builtin mic, but they also let you use an external mic or a USB device as an input source. It really, it, but it also can be the device itself also can make a difference, but usually it's the software. I think

Jason Howell (01:12:50):
If the developer is baked in using an external mic

Speaker 6 (01:12:53):
Yeah. Like a CellScope apps there's on Android, you know, they'll let you use a mic that you might plug in. That's a calibrated mic. Right. You know, to stuff like that or a worry or something like a, that would let you tune your guitar.

Jason Howell (01:13:08):
Right. Right, right, right. Mishaal former XDA editor achieve, I don't think so. Yeah. Is this a, is this something that root could solve potentially? What do you think?

Mishaal Rahman (01:13:24):
I don't know of a way it can be solved with root. I know it POS it probably could because with root, especially with something like exposed, you could pro probably, you know, hook, whatever code is responsible for defaulting to the built in speakers as the default audio output. And then probably like modify that to point to some external device. But by default it's app dependent, I'm pretty sure the app has to itself enumerate what devices are connected and then choose or provide a way for the user to choose which source to use for audio input. And yeah, since this app dependent, your mileage may vary.

Jason Howell (01:14:07):
Yeah. This app, which I'll put the link into the slack the app itself was last updated and Google, please don't remove this information. I know we talked about it a month or two ago, the last updated July 9th, 2019 saw, you know, who knows if it even has the ability to do this, but an app like this, I think would be it would be really beneficial to be able to do something like that. But yeah, like that

Speaker 6 (01:14:35):
Spectrum might analyze our app over there in the like here would, I would think would be more in tune inclined to do it, but, but not necessarily, but that's

Jason Howell (01:14:43):
Not is that might not be given pitch, which yeah, yeah. It might be capable of it, but it may, might not be pulling off the same, the, and function it's made by the same developer. I

Speaker 6 (01:14:53):
Wish every have, would do things like this would let you

Huyen Tue Dao (01:14:56):
Plug. You can get some really, yeah. You can get some really detailed information about, I'm just looking through docs. Like I'm not, I haven't done hardware in a while, so this is just me looking randomly at some like docs, but you can get some really fascinating and detailed information on the kind of audio ISIS. Like I'm not, I, I haven't found where you can actually request and change the audio device for recording, but they've got like inform, like you can get device info, like specific to the type, like you can get, whether something is an ox mic, whether something is Bluetooth, whether something is built in earpiece, built in mic built in speaker. So the information is there, it just might be, as y'all have already said, just the, app's not giving you the capability to switch audio devices or is not looking for them. It's just going for whatever is active at the moment. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. But wow, this is pretty cool. Really cool stuff. FM tuner. Really cool.

Jason Howell (01:15:46):
Wow. That's pretty

Huyen Tue Dao (01:15:47):
Cool. There's a huge, yeah. There's a huge list in under device info of all the kind of different devices that I guess Android is able to, you know, let you know, this is this device type and there's just, there's a whole ton of crap in here. Hearing aids. You can determine whether like an audio device is a hearing aid, a TV tuner. Oh, this is, this is cool. Wired headset, wired headphones. Yeah. So it might, I, I think that definitely just is contributing evidence that it's app dependent on whether they have enabled you to change input sources.

Jason Howell (01:16:16):
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. That makes a lot of sense. Well, thank you. Also I will have, you know, scooter X pointed out in chat that TLE PIP, when you Google search that every, every, every time, every time TLE PIP is actually a way of saying goodbye. So that was just that wasn't your, your, your first name or even a nickname as much as I

Speaker 6 (01:16:40):
Really goodbye. John,

Jason Howell (01:16:41):
As much as I really enjoyed calling you TPI John,

Huyen Tue Dao (01:16:44):
Like the signoff, like instead of saying best or thanks, John. Yes. TPI. John.

Jason Howell (01:16:50):
Exactly. Oh,

Speaker 8 (01:16:51):
Says name. Oh, wow. TPI. Oh,

Jason Howell (01:16:54):
I, I just really enjoyed the name being TLE PIP, John, you know, you will forever be TLE PIP, John, to me,

Huyen Tue Dao (01:17:00):
All of our Bri Brit listener, just like rolling.

Jason Howell (01:17:02):
I know they're like, seriously, This is what gets you rolling. All right. Well, thank you, John so much for your two part email. It was amazing. That's why it won the email of the week. TLE PIP. All right. We have reached the end of this episode of all about Android. It's been a lot of fun and I have the same Mishaal. This was the perfect episode for you on any episode is perfect for you to come on, but especially getting into the weeds on some of this stuff around Android 13, around the underlying architecture of Android really appreciate you taking time and hanging out with us tonight. Thank you

Mishaal Rahman (01:17:43):
Always happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Jason.

Jason Howell (01:17:46):
Absolutely. what do you wanna leave people with? You've got a lot going on at Esper. What would you like people to know?

Mishaal Rahman (01:17:55):
So if you want to stay up to date with the latest happenings in Android, I recommend follow me on Twitter at Mishaal Ramon. You'll find anything I do posted there first, whether it's my newsletter, the pot cast, any blog post I write. So that's the, the best place to find out what's happening in Android?

Jason Howell (01:18:16):
Yes, indeed. You guys are doing great work at usper. You know, just from an education standpoint, I feel like when I go into the Android subreddit usually something that you wrote it is near the top, so, you know, week after week, so good work on that. Not that I'm at all surprised you were putting out amazing work at XDA before you moved over toper. So keep it up and say hi to David for me and yeah, appreciate your time. We'll have you back very soon. Thank you. When, when do you wanna leave people with,

Huyen Tue Dao (01:18:53):
Well, I am an Android developer and you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at queen code monkey. I occasionally give out or, or give technical talks on Android things, and you can find a list of the, my talks video and associated code on my website, randomly typing.com. And I just wanna say, thank you, Mishaal, for all the very like super thorough, you know, breakdown of Android 13, I actually was like texting my, like messaging my team as I was going down. I was like, oh my gosh, look at this. Oh my gosh, look at this. Oh my gosh, we'll have to account for this. So it's, it's definitely like, especially as a dev, that's super valuable to get a heads up on that, like, and, and kind of know what we're in for. So again, also for my dev, thank you so much for all your hard work. It's awesome.

Jason Howell (01:19:36):
Yes, indeed.

Mishaal Rahman (01:19:37):
Expect that article to double in length soon.

Jason Howell (01:19:41):
Oh, really? Of course it's already, I'm not that surprised. Amazing. All right, Rob, what about you?

Ron Richards (01:19:50):
Yeah, as always, you can follow me on Twitter and on at Ron XO. And I talked about it last week, but for those of you track following what I'm doing with score bit you can get it in the Google play store. You can install the app keep track of your pinball scores. We were just in Texas this past weekend. I was not there, but my partners were I put a link in the dock. I dunno if it was too late Burke, but we had some cool pictures TJ Miller, previously of Silicon valley. And the movie Deadpool was at the show and he stopped by played pinball in our booth. It was pretty cool. Yeah, it was a good time. So a lot of people it was a, it, it felt like a, a return to normal for what I was told, but yeah, a picture of our booth at, at the, at the show, we had a couple pinball machines in there. People could play on there's a panel video panel J the playbacks on Twitch. You can check that out, talking about score other pinball manufacturers and there's a photo of TJ Miller. Yep. So yeah, it was a good time. I wish I could have gone, but I was watching from afar from home. So yeah, good times. Yeah, right on, go check it out. Just score it dot

Jason Howell (01:20:53):
Ioco it. Dot IO. Thank you, Ron. Awesome stuff. Thank you to Burke here in the studio for pushing the button that just cross faded from Ron's camera to my camera. It's practically magic. It's magical. So thank you Burke for that. Thank you, Victor for publishing and editing and doing all the behind the scenes stuff to make it so that you at home can actually watch and listen to this show after we record it live. You can find me on Twitter at Jason Howell. Also, I do tech news weekly with Micah Sergeant. Actually this Thursday, Mike is out. So I'm gonna be doing with doing the show with amp Pruit. So I'm really looking forward to that TWiT.tv/tnw, and do not want to forget club TWiT, TWiT.tv/clubTWiT. That's our ad free subscription tier here at TWiT. You get every single show that we do with the ads removed.

Jason Howell (01:21:45):
You won't even hear this ad in the club TWiT feeds also an exclusive TWiT plus podcast feed. We throw lots of extra content in there, not just post show and pre-show stuff, which we do put in there from time to time, but also, you know, specifically made for the club content interviews with some of the, some of your favorite people from the network Stacy Higginbotham's book club this week is space, which actually just launched as an actual podcast outside of the club, kind of had some, you know, rehearsals and, and run throughs in the club. This in the, the Linux, the untitled Linux show. There we go. That's a TWiT plus special, so lots of extra content. And then of course we have the discord as members only discord awesome stuff, $7 a month, TWiT.tv/club TWiT. As for this show, find it at TWiT.tv/aa. We record every Tuesday evening. You should get it in your podcast feed sometime late Tuesday, early Wednesday, depending on where you're at after Victor does all of his hard work on the back end but TWiT.tv/aa, and you subscribe and you don't even have to think about it. And that's it we've reached the end of this episode of all about Android toodlepip! We'll see you next Tuesday. Bye. Everybody

Rod Pyle (01:23:13):
Hey, I'm Rod Pyle editor of Ad Astra Magazine and each week I'm joined by Tariq Malik the editor in chief over at space.com in our new This Week in Space podcast, every Friday, Tariq and I deep dive into the stories that define the new space age: what's NASA up to? When will Americans, once again set foot on the moon? And how about those samples from the Perseverance Rover? When are those coming home? What the heck has Elon Musk done now? In addition to all the latest and greatest in space exploration. We'll take an occasional look at bits of space flight history that you probably never heard of and all towards having a good time along the way, check us out in your favorite podcast app