FLOSS Weekly 695 Transcript

Doc Searls (00:00:00):
This is FLOSS Weekly. I'm Doc Searls this week in the very cool TWiT studios. I'm just so privileged and happy to be here. It's really neat. Love these guys too. Now here's the thing. This week's episode is about massive Wiki and it has Peter Kaminski who is behind this thing on the, on the show, along with Shawn Powers, my co-host got good questions. Got great answers, and that is coming up. Next

Announcer (00:00:28):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Doc Searls (00:00:36):
This is FLOSS Weekly episode 695 recorded Wednesday, August 24th, 2022. Massive Wiki. This episode of floss weekly is brought to you by compiler and original podcast from red hat, discussing tech topics, big, small, and strange listen to compiler on apple podcasts or anywhere you listen to podcasts. And by I R L an original podcast from Mozilla I L is a show for people who build AI and people who develop tech policies hosted by Bridget Todd. This season of IRL looks at AI in real life search for IR L in your podcast player. And by bit warden, get the password manager that offers a robust and cost effective solution that can drastically increase your chances of staying safe online. Get started with a free trial of a teams or enterprise plan, or get started for free across all devices as an individual user at bit warden.com/twit. Hello, again, and good. Whenever it is wherever you are. I am doc circles. This is floss weekly. And for those of you not visually impaired watching this on video, you'll see that I am in the TWiTstudio, and this is a first for me. It's a new for me. Um, but none of the habits that I have, uh, apply. Uh, so I may struggle a little bit with this and that, but so far I haven't, I'm joined today by Shawn Powers himself. Um, there he is in somewhere, um, in Michigan <laugh> so

Shawn Powers (00:02:13):
I I'm like in the Phantom domain today. It's uh,

Doc Searls (00:02:16):
Oh, really?

Shawn Powers (00:02:17):
<laugh> uh, yeah, no, I'm in Michigan. It's hot today. It'll be probably snowy tomorrow. Yeah. That's kind of how it is.

Doc Searls (00:02:23):
This is, this is in Petaluma, California, where there was still the Marine layer fog overhead. I may look odd to some people used to seeing me too, because I forgot my glasses, so, but I can, I can live without them. So our, our guest today is, is, uh, Peter Kaminski, um, who I've known a very long time, uh, and you've never met before. <laugh> so it's true. And you said earlier,

Shawn Powers (00:02:44):
That's a weird brag, but yeah, that's true. <laugh> <laugh>

Doc Searls (00:02:49):
So, so what rather than talk about your prep, which you just claimed earlier, um, what's your curiosity going into this thing?

Shawn Powers (00:02:57):
Oh, so I, I'm actually just curious, uh, you know, in a lot of his, uh, information that we read, uh, he, he really thrives putting people together who can make awesome things happen. And I actually really like that. That's kind of, uh, one of my, uh, similar to why I do what I do. So I, yeah, I'm just curious what he does and why he does it and how he does it and all sorts of stuff like

Doc Searls (00:03:22):
That. So bring him in out of the green room, which is not even a green screen, but a switch, a switch in our control center. Um, there you is. Hey Pete. Um, I, I have to save at Pete that, um, uh, I think I'm, I met you maybe even before you did social text, but, um, which was an, an, an early commercial Wiki thing. Um, but I know Pete best as a guy who has the best answers to questions on the list he's on. And, um, there's one in particular that I'm on with. And he, I, I see, I see Pete as kind of a men who has just awesome answers to things and knows just a ridiculous amount of stuff and is technically adept as well. So, uh, with all that as, as, as a bit of prep, Pete, just give, give us your brief CV, uh, just so we can start lining up the questions.

Peter Kaminski (00:04:18):
Oh, that sounds good. Uh, so, uh, I call myself a, uh, entrepreneur and consultant. Um, I like to help people, uh, with tech, so I'm pretty good at tech. And, um, I, I, like, as Shawn said, I like, uh, connecting people and connecting people together and people the information, so they get, get done what they want to get done.

Doc Searls (00:04:42):
Um, so I'm now looking at my cheat sheet, which you sent us earlier. You've actually been at this stuff since 1977 with a CDC 6,400, yeah. Teletype P dial. Um, you ran an, is P like in the early nineties, um, uh, and social texts came along in, in, in 2000. So I, I, let me ask you about, about Wiki's and what happened with social texts, because I, I was kind of a customer then, um, that was an effort to sort of commercialize Wiki's. I think, I think Wiki's one of the best things ever invented. Um, and at this, and, and I'm adept at Wiki media, I edit in Wikipedia. It's probably the only thing I do this a little bit technical, um, in a practical sense, why aren't they bigger than, I mean, obviously Wikipedia is gigantic. Everybody relies on that. You know, you skip, you do a search of Google, you skip down past all the ads, and then there's the Wikipedia one with a little box over to the right as a shortcut. Um, but it's still, the world has not adopted these, even though everybody types on a Cordy keyboard. It's not like learning something that technical is that hard. So what's the, the deal with that.

Peter Kaminski (00:05:59):
It, it's a great question. And, uh, I wish I had the answer because, uh, because it would make my life easier. <laugh> um, I keep trying to give the world WIS, um, uh, many of us try to keep giving the world WIS, um, and, you know, they kind of bounce off, um, social text. I I've, it was a company, a startup that I started with a few friends, uh, in Silicon valley. Um, and we had a really good run. Um, the thing that I really wanted from it was to prove out the, um, prove that there was an ROI for collaboration. Um, I, I liked the idea of people working together and in business back when we started, uh, very early two thousands, uh, it was a little bit, uh, it was actually very uncommon for people to work together. We were still learning how to be networked.

Peter Kaminski (00:06:51):
Um, uh, and I think kind of the answer to your question kind of is, um, the, the, um, the, the way that we get brought up, uh, especially in the us, uh, we're very Indi individualized, uh, and our schooling system separates people and tries to make them work by themselves on their own, uh, which I, I think is really silly and stupid. Um, but you go into business thinking that, uh, everything, you know, you, you have to protect your information yourself from every other person working with you. Um, and you, and people end up with a little Fife DUNS and, and things like that. So, uh, we're taught not to collaborate. We're taught not to work together. Um, uh, another part of it is, uh, especially for your, um, your listeners and your viewers. I think society has a tough time, especially our, our culture, our, uh, our, our business model, um, in, in capitalism is that the commons is kind of a bad thing.

Peter Kaminski (00:07:58):
So Wiki's are best when they're commons, uh, a community of people working, working together. And, um, when I see Wiki's really working, you can't tell who wrote what, um, you can't, you know, you don't point to, you know, these are, this is my half of this sentence. And I also wrote this paragraph down here, the other parts of the page belong to other people. You just don't say that, uh, Wiki's a collaborative thing and collaboratively owned. It's the commons. So it's just, I, I have a, a hard time understanding why Wiki's are, are hard to pick up, but I think a lot of it is, is our culture.

Doc Searls (00:08:39):
So a couple questions there, a couple thoughts also, um, one is like, I've, I've written a fair amount of stuff on, um, on Wikipedia or mostly I've just corrected things and just filled things in, I've never sensed I'm part of the community on the contrary, I've sensed from rebukes that I've gotten from Wikipedians and also having some unknown person try to cancel me, uh, because it wasn't notable enough. Um, my experience with Wikipedia is actually though I love it and I value it enormously. And it's also like the biggest example we have of a Wiki, um, not exactly friendly. And, um, yeah. And so I'm wondering if you can make help me or the audience make sense of that.

Peter Kaminski (00:09:31):
Yeah. I, Wikipedia is a really amazing and wonderful thing. Um, and I know some of the folks, uh, that got started that got it started, um, uh, it's, it's a good observation that it doesn't feel like a community, especially for, uh, you know, there's, there's, there's a kind of concentric circles of, of Wikipedia. Um, and I'm sure that I, I know actually I know people in, in different circles, um, it's actually kind of a multi multicentric centric circles thing. Um, but I know people who participate in the community of being Wikipedians, um, and for them, it feels like a community, um, for, you know, a billion people using it. Uh, it's just hard to fit a billion people into community. So I think that's a, a big part of it. Uh, the, the scale at which it operates is too big for a good cohesive community.

Peter Kaminski (00:10:31):
Um, they, the unfriendliness of it, uh, is I, I, it's funny, I I've had, I've helped people with, you know, um, Hey, I just got canceled on Wikipedia. What's up with that. Or I've had things that, uh, I've added Wikipedia and they haven't been notable enough to, to, to stay the, um, the thing that that Wikipedia has built is, uh, very, um, because of the scale, because of the kind of artifact it is, it's supposed to be a, um, uh, authoritative kind of, uh, way to look up information. Uh, it, it has grown into something that is allergic to a lot of, of information that, you know, that should, should, and a ATO and should live someplace. Um, but it kind of just can't live in Wikipedia. So, uh, one of the, the, the big, the big, uh, one of the big roles of Wikipedia is that you have to have a source for whatever you put on Wikipedia.

Peter Kaminski (00:11:33):
It needs to be, it it's likes to be in print actually. Um, uh, you know, you, you're not supposed to do original research. You're not supposed to, to put things that are things that maybe a few people know that are important. Um, but aren't published someplace else and haven't been vetted through, you know, editorial processes elsewhere. Uh, it just doesn't belong in Wikipedia. So, um, the, the bureaucracy that runs Wikipedia, and I don't mean that as a slight, um, uh, I mean that as, as a compliment, really the, um, it's a, it's a complicated thing to build. Uh, it's got many, many, many languages, many, many, many cultures, um, all trying to squeeze into, you know, hundred hundreds of thousands of pages. Um, it's a tough job. Um, it is what it is. It's, it's kind of a Wiki and it's kind of not, um, you can definitely call it a Wiki in this, and it's a good one in some senses it's got, um, easy linking and, uh, easy editing. Uh, it's not a, another, the, the wikis I like are communities of, you know, um, a dozen people or a hundred people, or a couple hundred people. Uh, it's definitely not that. And it's, it's just, it is what it is.

Doc Searls (00:12:57):
So I know, I know Shawn is ready with a question, but first I have to let <laugh>, I have to, I'm teeing up Shawn, and then tell him to stay away. But first I have to let you know, let's take this to stop laughing before I do the ad. Okay. Um, first I have to let you know that this episode of floss weekly is brought to you by compiler an original podcast from red hat, discussing tech topics, big, small, and strange compiler comes to you from the makers of command line heroes. And other of our sponsors and is hosted by Angela Andrews and Brent semio technology can be big and bold and bizarre and complicated compiler unravels, industry topics, trends, and the things you've always wanted to know about tech through interviews with the people who know it best on their show. You'll hear a chorus of perspectives from the diverse communities behind the code.

Doc Searls (00:13:51):
Compiler brings together a curious team of red hatters to tackle big questions in tech. Like what is technical debt? What are tech hiring managers actually looking for? And do you have to know how to code to get started with open source episode two covers? What can video games teach us about edge computing? The internet is a patchwork of international agreements and varying infrastructure, but there is something coming to change. The way we connect in this episode of compiler hosts, compile what edge computing could mean for people who enjoy video games. And with this form of entertainment could teach us about the technology episode nine, how are tech hubs changing? Traditionally, if someone wanted a career in tech, they had to make to move to a tech hub, a city packed with startups and talent, but things are starting to change the host of compilers. Speak to a few of the change makers who are thinking outside the physical and social dimensions. We've come to associate with innovation and relevant thing. There is that I'm working, I'm working for TWiThere, and this is my first time in the studio. So I've been doing this remotely from the start. So learn more about compiler at red.ht/twit. New episodes are out now going download them at any time and be sure to check back for new shows, listen to compiler and apple podcast, or anywhere you listen to podcasts will also include a link on this episode show, page, my thanks to compiler for their support.

Doc Searls (00:15:19):
So Shawn, you're on <laugh>. Yeah. If you come out of your box now.

Shawn Powers (00:15:23):
Yeah, no, you just, Pete touched on a lot of, uh, on a lot of things. Now I, of course, was educated in the American education system. Um, uh, and yet I, I'm also, uh, fairly involved in the open source world, which I think makes me, uh, a little bit more, uh, open da da, da, uh, to, uh, working, you know, as a group. But I have to admit perhaps it is the, the success of Wikipedia that makes me hesitant to, uh, use wikis because, you know, I see the, you know, one day I'll wake up and half the pages on Wikipedia will have Nazi symbolism on them because they were hacked or, you know, I see like massive fights about canceling doc on his Wikipedia page. And I'm like, I almost hope I'm not like popular enough that people wanna fight over my Wikipedia page.

Shawn Powers (00:16:10):
Maybe I'll just squeak in there and, you know, uh, nobody will notice. Uh, so I, I guess my, my question is how, how would somebody like myself who has a very small community right now of, uh, people who are learning, Lenux like my, my YouTube channel and, and that sort of a thing. Um, I, I recently started a discord server for people to talk and communicate and, and work with each other. The problem with that is it's not, uh, it's not something that, uh, a search engine is going to index, right? It's not gonna be something that people can go back and, and get valuable information from previous discussions. Uh, so a Wiki would be a great place to have, uh, information and, and stuff like that. But back to the schooling part that is opening it up to one more thing, then I have to babysit because yes, it might be maintained very well, but also it could get abused and, you know, who watches the Watchers and all of those issues, um, that at the end of the day, sometimes like, you know what, I'll just write something myself. I'll just do it myself all alone and post it. So I don't have to worry anymore. <laugh>. And so how, I mean, if you have thoughts on how can we get past that, uh, because Wikipedia almost, uh, reinforces the notion that it's only gonna be more work and more frustration if you open it up for everybody to, uh, to contribute. So I don't know, I, I don't want to be a jaded internet user <laugh>, um, help me beat.

Doc Searls (00:17:34):
<laugh>

Peter Kaminski (00:17:37):
A good question, John. Um, uh, let's peel back the, the onion a little bit more on, on, um, why people don't use wikis. And I think from, from the very beginning in social text, our observation was to learn the, the basics of, of a Wiki, you know, click the edit button type, some stuff, click save, uh it's you know, and, and then, you know, get told that by the way, somebody else might edit what you edited, or you could go edit some what somebody else edited. All of that description is about two minutes, you know, three minutes, something like that. It's very quick. Um, uh, there's part of the friction is, um, I mean, I'm gonna abstract out Wikipedia for a sec. Maybe we'll come back to that. But part of the friction is, um, is, well, you know, it's just easier if I have my page and she has her page and, you know, and then I won't screw her thing.

Peter Kaminski (00:18:40):
Um, and she won't script mine. I like, I like that. Uh, so it takes a little bit of a acculturation get over that, that, um, you know, being in the commons, um, this, this is something that open source people, um, are, are real, really familiar with. You know, you're used to the concept that, um, Hey, I'm gonna put something up on, on, uh, GitLab or GitHub or whatever, and other people are going to be able to change it. Um, when you're in, uh, when you are participating in opensource, you also learned that, uh, people participate by permission. Uh, it's not something that they come and scribble all over your, your source code. Um, they need access, or they need to, uh, do a for and pull, uh, pull request back or something like that. Um, so there's a couple levels of learning. What Wiki is.

Peter Kaminski (00:19:28):
One of them is just, you know, click at it, um, type some stuff, maybe type in markdown nowadays. Um, uh, markdown is kind of taken over, I think from the Wiki syntax we used to use 15 years ago, um, click save that's one level. Another level is, uh, imagine you're on a soccer field or something like that. And you're playing, um, pickup soccer with a bunch of your friends and you're kicking foot football for the rest of the world. That's not, not strange. Um, you're playing football, uh, with a bunch of your friends on a field. Um, you need to learn how to pass the ball to one another. You need to learn how to poit position yourself on the field so that you are you're, um, colleagues can pass to you, things like that. There's um, and acculturation thing that happens, um, when you are trying to write 10 or a hundred or a thousand, um, pages of content together, um, that that just takes time.

Peter Kaminski (00:20:29):
And, uh, I've seen it. It's something that it's, it's easy and fun to do. Uh, but it's not something that we have good models for. Uh, it's not something that is, you know, that, oh, this is just like, um, you know, uh, oh, I'm gonna show you, you Google docs. It works just like Microsoft word or vice versa or something like that. There isn't a model for we're all working together on this. And, um, uh, an example of something that I'm talking about kind of the equivalent of passing the ball in, in soccer is, uh, okay. Uh, I, I see this great page, but I've got some comments I want to, to put on it. If I put the comments in line, then that's interrupting the flow of the page. If I put a link to a comment on another page, then it's harder to see it and it's not integrated. What are we going to do? Um, uh, both of those and a, and a couple other ways to make comments, um, uh, that I could rattle through are, are fine and wonderful ways to do it. The trick is to make that kind of decision collaboratively, uh, as a group, um, and learn that it's okay to make decisions together as a group that it's okay to you, you need to do some kind of careful.

Peter Kaminski (00:21:46):
Um, um, it's, it's a lot like people jostling in a, in a meeting room or something like that, or a cocktail party, you know, how do I get from here to there without bumping into people and spilling their drinks? Um, how do I make sure that people, uh, you know, I feel like I have enough personal space around me, um, but I can still talk to people, those kinds of social dis decisions and, and they end up being kind of collaborative decisions with the whole group. Um, maybe you've got a host saying, um, Hey folks, I, I know that we've got some new people here, or we've got some people who've who like a little bit more space than usual. Let's all spread out and give everybody a chance to, to breathe, um, different host or different, different set of people. You might get the same kind of, uh, you might get the same, uh, uh, announcement from the host, but it's like, Hey, let's pack some more people in here.

Peter Kaminski (00:22:38):
We're having more fun when we're all together and dancing back in the day when we could use to congregate without masks and whatever. Um, the same kind of thing has to happen in a Wiki. And, and there just aren't great models for that. Um, people don't get taught how to do that, that, that it needs to be done. Um, people are used to making a decision for themselves how, you know, I'm writing long paper. Here's how I'm gonna put the headings. Here's how I'm gonna put the footnotes, um, or even worse. Um, they're used to being told by their professor or their, their teacher, you know, this is the way that you're going to do it. Um, I'm telling you, and you don't even get a choice. So, um, a, a big part back to your question, Shawn, um, um, a big part of it is getting the Wiki started, and then that's kind of the easy part.

Peter Kaminski (00:23:31):
The next part is helping, you know, either collectively or maybe with a host, um, like yourself, like me, um, kind of set the ground rules for participating, uh, in the Wiki, um, and, and figuring out how to, you know, how to slowly kind of work together and build together and not annoy each other, not upset each other and find the places where it feels positive when it's like, wow, I come back, came back to this page and I had left it kind of me a mess. It's all pretty now mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, or wow, this, you know, somebody added a couple paragraphs here that, that like expand what I was talking about in a really cool way. Uh, that kind of stuff is, is, um, what you get into when a Wiki community is successful. And, uh, and it's something that I really don't it's, um, because Wiki's can be semi synchronous, but mostly asynchronous.

Peter Kaminski (00:24:32):
Um, you can have these kind of conversations, a group, brain thinking, thoughts and, and conversations over weeks and months and even years, uh, in the same information space. And that's something you just can't get anywhere. It's. Um, uh, go ahead. I just, I have to, I I've got to, yeah, let me, let me finish one thing. Yep. Um, I, I apologize for continuing to go on and on the, uh, the, the first Wiki was made by word Cunningham, um, uh, back in the early two thousands or late 1990s, maybe, um, uh, word was inspired by hypertext and, and the web and things like that. Uh, and, uh, he created the Portland pattern repository, um, a Wiki about patterns, uh, and, um, uh, software patterns and, um, a way to collaborate together that, that we hadn't seen before, um, because we had the web and now you can kind of do something that was kind of like HyperCard, but altogether, uh, one of the things that I think most of us who were even, even participating in, uh, the early C2, Wiki, um, uh, and especially people just looking at it, it looked effortless and it looked easy and it looked like, um, uh, like, like it, the communities just kind of came together.

Peter Kaminski (00:25:50):
It just like meshed, like all these people were talking and thinking together. And, um, and it was wonderful. Um, it was a bit of a talking, talking with ward later. Um, it was a bit more complicated than that. Uh, ward spent a lot of time being a, a careful, thoughtful, um, host, uh, and facilitator of the conversation and how we put links together and how the pages were, were developed and what, what made sense to put where, uh, so he did that with a kind of a gentle touch, um, uh, mentoring one on one, I think often, uh, and gently moving people forward. Um, the way I ended up thinking of it, uh, was that the early, uh, words early Wiki, it, it was kinda like a Boni to me. Uh, it was something that looked very naturalistic. It looked like it was just, you know, constructed and, and it just fell, fell together like this.

Peter Kaminski (00:26:53):
Wow. That's a beautiful tree. You know, if you saw a Boni from far a little bit of ways, and couldn't tell it was a little toy thing, you'd go, wow, that looks just like a windswept, um, you know, Monterey pine or something like that. Um, but, but it was carefully shaped that way. It was carefully shaped to be naturalistic looking. Um, there was a lot of little invisible copper wires holding the thing together, and that was a lot of what, what ward had done. He, he constructed a, an information space, a knowledge space, and a group brain that was nicely contained, um, uh, and felt natural, uh, and had a lot of shaping to get to it. So an interesting lesson for,

Shawn Powers (00:27:39):
Yeah. And I guess the more I'm thinking about it as you, as you talk about it, uh, so a couple, a couple notes, one is gonna sound very narcissistic and the other is just a, uh, maybe a bigger related issue. So, um, if I, you know, I've been a writer for a long time and when I write, uh, my voice is very clear. I break grammar rules in a very specific Shawn sounding way. If you read something I write, it's pretty clear that I wrote it, uh, for better or for worse. And I think that with the idea of, um, collaborative editing of information, uh, one, it, it feels, um, it's not quite like a, oh, that's my intellectual property. I mean, because again, I, I love open source and I love the idea of sharing knowledge, but it almost feels like, um, you have to make sure you're surrendering any ownership to whatever it is you're you're documenting or, or putting on a Wiki because, um, you know, it, it's no longer going to be something that Shawn wrote, even if parts of it sound that way.

Shawn Powers (00:28:37):
Uh, so I think that's a, it's, it's weird probably for other people to edit something, uh, you know, are they gonna try to make it match my style or are they going to not? And then the other thing, you know, as I was thinking through that is you were talking too. I'm like, that's kind of why, when you do collaborative work in school, the high school college, you know, or even at work, wherever you do collaborative work, generally the group works together. And then there's a person who creates the final like presentation or, you know, paper or whatever. Yep. And I think it's probably for that exact reason, right. For continuity's sake. So that it, it sounds smooth so that it's not disjointed. Uh, you know, and I'm not saying that's why wickeds, aren't more popular, but I, I could see that being an issue, you know, because the, the more that people are comfortable writing, the more, you know, they found their voice, so to speak, you know, and, and it's almost the opposite of that with a Wiki. It, it's almost by design going to be disjointed in some way. So I, that's not really a question, just a general observation of that's a challenge. I think that, uh, you need to make sure you're facing before you even start.

Peter Kaminski (00:29:41):
Yeah, yeah. That that's spot on. Um, the, the way I, the way I think of it, maybe, um, uh, it's kinda like you're going out. I, you know, uh, the, the thought that comes to mind, the metaphor that comes to mind is, is going running, uh, you know, I can go running myself and I'm going to be able to decide where I go and, you know, in the moment it's like, ah, I'm gonna take this left turn that I, I, you know, always wanted to head that way. And I never have, um, feels good, you know, the wind rushing past my, my head, um, uh, kind of a solitude, you know, I'm in the zone and I'm, I'm like, you know, uh, all then, uh, with my running. So that's a, a wonderful feeling, a wonderful experience. Um, a, a, a different experience is going, running with a few people, a few friends, right.

Peter Kaminski (00:30:32):
Um, uh, all of a sudden I've kind of gotta watch, you know, to make sure nobody got left behind watch. We have to watch to make sure we don't bump into each other. Uh, you know, we, we kind of maybe talked about a plan, uh, uh, going out, and then it's harder to make that the moment decision, uh, to, uh, to take a left turn. Um, but it's, it feels different. It feels like we're a, we're a team, uh, that team feeling feels different, right? So running with your running by yourself, it, you, you know, you have your own writing style, uh, and, and it feels comfortable and, and well worn. And, and it's easy to, easy to change the way you exactly the way you want to, um, running together with a bunch of people, uh, feels different because, you know, everybody, everybody is participating in this, where should we go?

Peter Kaminski (00:31:28):
What should we do if, uh, you know, there's construction we have to, to reroute, um, that making decisions together feels to me in, in a way I, I, I kind of think humans are, are most human when we're, we're human together. Right. Um, uh, and humans are kind of particular and weird that, uh, we have this, we have both drives, you know, I want, I just want everybody to go away. And I just wanna be my by myself and think my thoughts and have it be quiet, but, um, too much of that is not fun, you know? And, and, uh, there's times when it's like, wow, it's a lot of fun to be with my friends. We're talking about stuff that I wouldn't have thought of talking about. We're thinking thoughts that I wouldn't have thought. Um, he, and, and they are picking up, um, on my ideas and building on it in a way that, you know, I would've never gotten to, um, I love doing that in a group. Right. That's, that's what, what a Wiki is. Um, so I, let me, let me segue a little bit into, um, massive Wiki, um, the, the title of the podcast episode here. Um, I

Shawn Powers (00:32:35):
Have chatting that was actually the plan. So you are not doing an

Peter Kaminski (00:32:39):
And out of

Doc Searls (00:32:39):
Script segue, but tease it a bit because I do have to do I have to do a brief break, actually get, let me just take this point right now, cuz now that you've done the tease and I'll do the break and then we'll get to massive Wiki, cuz we've been sending notes to each other. We have to get in a massive Wiki and now you caught us at it. So <laugh>, I have to let you know, this episode of Flos weekly is brought to you by IRL. An original podcast from Mozilla. IRL is a show for people who build AI and people who develop tech policies hosted by Bridget Todd. This season of IRL looks at AI in real life. Who can AI help? Who can it harm? The show features fascinating conversations with people who are working to build more trustworthy AI. There's an episode about how our world is mapped with AI.

Doc Searls (00:33:25):
The data that's missing from those maps tells you as much of a story as the maps themselves. You'll hear about the people who are working to fill in those gaps and take control of the data. There's another episode about gig workers who depend on apps for their livelihood. It looks at how they're pushing back against the algorithms. They control, how much they get paid and seeking new ways to gain power over data, to gain better working conditions for political junkies. There are episodes about the role that AI plays when it comes to the spread of misinformation and hate speech around elections, a huge concern for democracies around the world. All of these by the way, are really close to home for me, especially the missing data here and there. Um, there's so much that we don't know about AI and there's so much we need for ourselves with AI. That's like the, to me, the big frontier. So search for IL in your podcast player will also include a link to the show notes, my thanks to IRL for their support. So go <laugh> so massive Wiki so that we're <laugh> we only have so much time to talk about it, but tell us what you're doing with massive Wiki there. Pete,

Peter Kaminski (00:34:35):
I will. Um, thanks doc. Uh, and thanks for our, our, uh, IRL and compiler <laugh> I appreciate it. Um,

Peter Kaminski (00:34:45):
I, I feel like, uh, massive Wiki is, is kind of a, a way to unlock wikis for, for many more people. So I'm, I'm really excited about it. Uh, I wanna apologize a little bit for the name. Um, uh, it, it actually is a great name, massive Wiki, uh, massive lends itself to a lot of, uh, good branding, uh, stuff. Um, the, the name comes from, um, uh, kind of an acronym, uh, markdown, uh, for the ma and then, uh, shared for S uh, versioned for V and files for F um, uh, so I used to spell it that way originally. Um, and people, people were very polite and they didn't tell me that it was hard to remember and hard to spell <laugh>, but finally I realized, oh, they're kind of every, I that face every time I say, uh, massive M a S VF.

Peter Kaminski (00:35:36):
Um, I get it. Let's, let's rename it massive. Um, the idea is, uh, massive Wiki is I, I think of it as a movement. It's very small right now. Um, I've been doing it with a few friends, uh, for a year and a half or two years, something like that. Um, and, uh, we're working slow. Uh it's it's finally, I finally feel like it's kind of, uh, worth getting out into the world more we've solved some of the, the initial problems we had with it. The idea is let's do a Wiki, um, and just to, to make a Wiki, all you need is markdown files. Um, and there's a convention kind of a ad hoc convention for links, uh, in markdown files, two square brackets around a phrase or, or a word makes a link. So, uh, once you can edit plain text files, uh, everybody pretty much who uses a computer can use plain text files, uh, in notepad or text edit, or your editor or choice Microsoft word even, um, once you're editing plain text files, uh, don't mark it up or anything.

Peter Kaminski (00:36:41):
Um, but let me tell you a little bit of, of markdown stuff, you know, use, um, uh, here's how to make bullets. Here's how to make bold here's, here's how to make a link and that's, there's not much more to it than that. Um, so let's make a Wiki outta markdown files, uh, and then, uh, to get the sharing part of it, where we used to use a central centralized server, um, in, in the web, uh, nowadays we might call that the cloud, uh, Wiki's used to be a centralized service, uh, like Wikipedia still is, uh, instead let's have the files on each, uh, person's computer or phone or whatever. Uh, and then we'll use some software to, uh, share it with everybody else. Uh, and if we use software, like get, uh, to do the sharing, um, to do some versioning and conflict management, uh, somebody else has written all of that for us.

Peter Kaminski (00:37:36):
And we can take, uh, take advantage of the, the thing that we've got to have essentially a Wiki, um, this, this has worked out really well. And, and so software developers, the open source people in the world will recognize this is the same workflow, uh, that you use for code. Um, and in fact, uh, many of your listeners from your will have been using essentially doing a massive Wiki, uh, on their own. They will have figured out that, uh, markdown is a good format for keeping track of stuff. Um, uh, it's, uh, just complex enough to be interesting, but not too complex. Uh, it's also very standard, um, get is, uh, also a useful thing for sharing and versioning and stuff like that. Um, a, a tool that we wrote, um, to add onto this ecosystem is called massive Wiki builder and, uh, massive Wiki as a set of files, uh, works just fine, uh, on your computer.

Peter Kaminski (00:38:36):
Um, uh, but nobody can see it. Uh, the search engines can index unless it's in the web. So massive Wiki builder fills that gap. Uh, it takes your Wiki. And when you make changes to your Wiki, it publishes the changes, uh, to the cloud. Uh, it's a static site builder. It's not a very fancy one either. Uh, it's not complicated. Uh, it's a few hundred lines of Python code, um, and it's open source of course. Uh, but that, I think one of the architectural things about, about setting it up. So I were maybe, maybe to back up a little bit, one of the things that's confusing about at Wiki is that, um, people who don't know how all the backend stuff works, they come to, they come to many websites, uh, in their, in their days and weeks, you know, they're going website, website, website, website, I don't edit, um, Google news.

Peter Kaminski (00:39:30):
I don't edit, uh, you know, I don't edit Yahoo. I don't edit Washington post.com. I, you know, I just don't edit the web. What do you mean edit the web, um, uh, and con you know, conversely, um, uh, many people are used to reading and consuming webpages. It's super, super common, super normal. Uh, everybody's used to doing it. Uh, they know how webpages work, they know how navigation works. So how about, um, how about if we split up the editing and publishing reading part of that into two things, uh, we'll do the editing, uh, with fancier tools, uh, that allow you to, um, you know, do things with pages, uh, that, that you don't need to do if you're just reading and then we'll have a bog standard website, uh, that, that isn't built for editing, it's just built to be a really good website.

Peter Kaminski (00:40:23):
So massive Wiki builder is built to be that it's something that in St it's a really easy web, um, website for you, uh, and, uh, it's set up so that you don't, um, you don't need to be a programmer. You don't need to be a developer to, to get it to run. You don't even need to run massive Wiki builder on your own computer. Uh, uh, if you can publish it to one of the GI, um, forges, then there are, uh, static site hosts that, uh, are willing and able to just pick up your pages and the code, and then build the websites for you and host it. You can do that for free even. So all of this together kind of, um, it, it has some real nice, uh, um, qualities to it. Uh, we're using a very simple format, mark down, very simple and very standard format.

Peter Kaminski (00:41:18):
Uh, we're using, uh, GI, um, uh, which is, uh, standard for software developers, uh, not standard for everybody else. Uh, there's a copy. There's a copy of the whole Wiki on every individual's computer, who's, who's working with it. So, um, if I get annoyed at the group or, uh, I go away to the mountains and don't have connectivity, I have the whole Wiki, um, right here. Um, if we have a cataclysm and, and, um, the net goes down for, for days or weeks or months or years, um, I still got a copy of the whole Wiki. So I like the, um, there's a saying, uh, lots of copies, keep stuff safe. Um, uh, massive Wiki is built. So it naturally kind of, uh, multiplies and, and is safe everywhere. Um, uh, another thing that I have found that I didn't expect, uh, when I started massive Wiki, was that I have a number.

Peter Kaminski (00:42:15):
I have dozens of massive WIS on my computer. Um, and I share them with different people, uh, different, uh, access control. Um, uh, a thing that I I'm surprised to find is that my massive wikis kind of like to be promiscuous with each other. Um, I'll develop a page in one place. I find that I need it in another place, and I use regular file tools on my computer to drag and drop it, um, between wikis, um, move it or copy it or whatever. Um, I find, you know, I, I can write stuff, um, uh, to post on a blog, and then I find that same format fits into my Wiki or vice versa. I'll find a page on the Wiki. Uh, it's in markdown, it's easy to send to different places that, that take markdown. Um,

Shawn Powers (00:43:05):
Yes. Can I ask just a clarifying question? So I, I, I, I understand the, the concept and it's, it's great to separate the idea of editing from the, the hosting of the actual data that can be publicly consumed, uh, that, you know, lines up with the GI model, right? I mean, you work on things locally, lots of people do, and then you can, so, but is there then, is there a central place that things are served publicly from, or not even public publicly? Maybe that's not the right word, but served out, you know, that's separated from the editing process, but, uh, are these, so the references to other pages, are they still just referencing like on one central place, that's serving it out? Are these cross-referencing to wherever you happen to be hosting the, uh, consumable version that, that part's not clear to me. I mean, I understand they get in the, you know, that aspect of it, but I'm not sure where the files are hosted for people to read.

Peter Kaminski (00:44:00):
Uh, it's a good question. Um, uh, I like your question, Shawn. Um, uh, for people who are participating in the Wiki, people who are editing the Wiki, um, uh, for, for the software developers, uh, one Wiki is one repo. Um, uh, people have, uh, either a repo can be public or private in a get forge. Uh, and, um, if it's public, uh, you don't get to edit the Wiki unless you have, you're a member of the Wiki. Uh, you can edit it, you can edit a copy of it. You can fork it and make a copy, make changes, and offer the changes back with a poll request, um, for people who are editing the Wiki, uh, normally they will, they will. Uh, so I, I skipped over some of the details. Uh, let's talk a little bit more about the details. Um, one of the best Wiki viewers, Wiki clients, uh, is a personal knowledge management system called obsidian.

Peter Kaminski (00:45:01):
Um, uh, the URL for that is obsidian.md. Uh, it's a commercial more or less commercial product, uh, for personal use. They've, they've got a free tier license. It's a really nice product, a really great development crew. Um, it's, it comes with a ton of plugins to make it do, uh, cool things. And, uh, the plugins are, are mostly open source. Uh, so it's, it's been a wonderful, it's a wonderful tool and a wonderful ecosystem, a bunch of great people, um, using it for personal knowledge management. Most people use, uh, obsidian as a personal knowledge management it's it's coincidentally and yet not. So coincidentally, um, also a, a massive Wiki client, uh, the, the idea to use markdown and markdown links and a set of files in a directory, um, is blindingly obvious to anybody who's done some software development and, you know, knows, knows, uh, markdown.

Peter Kaminski (00:46:04):
Uh, so it's not like massive Wiki is inventing something new. The, the idea of massive Wiki is to tell people about, uh, and a particular architecture document, a particular architecture, test it with newbies, um, write some, uh, auxiliary tools, uh, uh, but just spread the idea of using, uh, you know, brand it, give it a brand massive Wiki, um, spread the idea of using that and a thing that is different with massive Wiki than most people who've come to this markdown Wiki thing by themselves is to don't just do it by yourself, do it with other people. So, um, obsidian is meant to be a personal knowledge management system, but it's also a massive Wiki client and many of our massive Wiki people use, uh, obsidian as their kind of viewer editor. So to answer one part of your question, Shawn, um, a Wiki is just a folder and maybe some sub folders, uh, with markdown files in it.

Peter Kaminski (00:46:59):
So, uh, if you're looking at it in finder or windows file Explorer, it looks just like a bunch of text files or a bunch of markdown files. If, if your computer knows about markdown files, um, and you can do all the same things that you do with it. Um, uh, once you learn a little bit about get, uh, you know, that that folder and the sub folders are at GI repo, um, obsidian calls them vaults. Uh, so I can have a personal vault, um, slash repo slash folder. Uh, I can have a shared one with a few friends. Um, I can have a very public one where we have lots of collaboration in it. Um, all of those are separate folders with potentially sub folders in it. So then most people who are editing Wiki will use obsidian. Obsidian is good at both allowing you to edit and navigate through the space and then do a bunch of other things, uh, like, uh, draw a graph diagram of the connections, uh, um, uh, do different kinds of, uh, transformations on the files, uh, that, that are useful, um, for different reasons.

Peter Kaminski (00:48:08):
Um, one of the really cool plugins, uh, uh, for obsidian is called obsidian get, um, so thankfully, uh, a few people have written, uh, a nice GI client that runs inside of obsidian, uh, with some hot keys, uh, or now some, some, a few buttons on a control panel. You can do all of the GI stuff without really knowing much about, uh, the, the mechanics of GI. So I've got a number of people who are non-technical, uh, who know that you, uh, control L or command L uh, for pull and control L or command U for push. And that's good enough for, for letting them, uh, the, the push, uh, for, for the get geeks here, push is actually shorthand for, um, do a commit poll, uh, and then a push, um, that's enough. Those two hot are enough to let them participate in the, uh, get sharing, uh, and versioning and things like that. So, and

Shawn Powers (00:49:13):
So it's, it's more of a collaboration, uh, aspect of the, of the Wiki process than delivery. I guess that, that's what I was, what I was, uh, missing a little bit is where you were going. The focus is far more collaborating, uh, with people working on their own copy and, and syncing up with GI than it is worrying about how the end result is delivered, if you will, because everybody can deliver it. However they see fit. Is that a, is that fair? I guess that was the piece that I was, yeah, not quite rocking. Yeah. Okay.

Peter Kaminski (00:49:41):
That's totally fair. I, the, um, we have Wiki where it, it doesn't, it isn't published anywhere to publish it on the web. Uh, usually what you do is doesn't have to be done this way, but usually use the tool, massive Wiki builder, and it, and it builds to, uh, one particular place. So people will will say, um, uh, you know, uh, my nontechnical users will be doing massive Wiki stuff by themselves. And I guess by the act of sharing it, uh, making sure that it's shared pushing it to all of the other contributors, uh, if you've got it set up, it goes to the cloud. Uh, it goes to the web to builds to the web, uh, builds a website there. So what they think of that is, um, Hey, I'm making a new blog post in my Wiki, or I, I just wrote a, a page of podcasts, including IL and compiler. Um, I want to get that page so the world can see it. So, uh, search engines can see it, I'm going to push, and that's what they think. They, they don't, you know, they don't know much more about that. And then there's typically one web website. It could be multiple websites, but it's typically one website, massive.wiki for instance, is a massive Wiki. Uh, and it looks like a website and it's also a massive Wiki for those people who, uh, collaborate with them.

Doc Searls (00:51:03):
Uh, if one, probably one last question, cuz you're getting toward the end of the show here. But first I have to let everybody know that this episode of false weekly is brought to you by bit warden. Bit warden is the only open source cross platform password manager that could be used at home at work or on the go and is trusted by millions with bit warden. You can securely store credentials across personal and business worlds. Every bit warden account begins with the creation of a personal vault with bit warden's username generator. You can integrate with three popular email forwarding services that also happen to be open source, simple login and an Addie and Firefox relay that makes adding another layer of security and privacy easier than ever when using bit warden to generate a new username, the option to create an email alias is presented with a sub selection for choosing your preferred service.

Doc Searls (00:51:57):
Just enter the API key for your individual account, with the chosen service select the desired options. And what's generated a new alias is instantly registered to your account. Using unique usernames, email addresses and passwords for every account is a powerful method for increasing internet security and privacy and adds protection to logins in the face of data breaches and leaks. This features available on the web vault desktop app and browser extensions with mobile plan for future release bit word is a must need for your business. It's fully customizable and adapts to your business needs. Use bit word and send a fully encrypted method to transmit sensitive information, whether text or files generate unique and secure passwords for every site with enterprise grade security, that's GDPR CPA, HIPAA, and SOC two compliant. Uh, their end to end ended encrypted vault helps mitigate fishing attacks and bit worded has recently added even more enterprise capability by adding skim support to make it even easier to provision and manage users.

Doc Searls (00:53:05):
Their team's organization option is $3 a month per user share private data securely with coworkers across departments or the entire company enterprises could use bit warden's enterprise organization plan for just $5 per month per user individuals can use their basic free account forever for an unlimited number of passwords or upgrade any time to their premium account for less than $1 a month. Their family organization option gives up to six users premium features for only $3 and 33 cents a month at twit re fans. The password managers bit warden is the only open source cross platform password manager that could be used at home on the go or at work and is trusted by millions of individuals, teams and organizations worldwide gets started with a free trial of a teams or enterprise plan or gets started for free across all devices as an individual user@pitchwarden.com slash twit that's bit warden.com/twi. So, so Peto and I, um, I wanna ask a couple things, what is a short question is, are, and, and then I wanna get to the commons question. Is there something about that for me? Um, is there a business here? I mean, I, you say you, you do consulting, but is there a business in massive Wiki at all? Is there,

Peter Kaminski (00:54:32):
Uh, I, I don't intend for there to be okay. I, you know, certainly there could be and, um, but it's,

Doc Searls (00:54:40):
You, mention's free earlier this, this such and such is free and I thought that might imply that something cost. So

Peter Kaminski (00:54:46):
Yeah. Um, the, the thing that's free is hosting, um, there's a couple services that we use commercial services for deploying big websites that have a free tier. Um, and, uh, so, um, uh, it's, it's cool that those, uh, commercial, uh, static site hosts exist, but that's not part of massive Wiki and it's not needed.

Doc Searls (00:55:08):
Yeah. So I, I wanna get to commons briefly before we close. Um, uh, right now, I mean, I'm, uh, embedded in Bloomington Indiana at the Ostrom workshop and elder Ostrom did all this pioneer work on the commons. Um, most people think of the common and, and we I've, my wife and I are involved in a nonprofit called, uh, customer commons, which is roughly modeled on creative commons, um, which has sort of a Larry less who we ran into last night, which is fun. Um, yet most people, when you hear commons, they think the word tragic <laugh>, and, and that, that it's a finite resource rather than something that's more open. But I think it's maybe like the word agency, which was hardly used in the personal empowerment sense, um, until very recently and, um, and is now coming into common usage. So I'm wondering if you, if you see the hope for people starting to gro what a commons, what a commons is.

Peter Kaminski (00:56:10):
It's a, it's a tough one to take at the end of the,

Doc Searls (00:56:13):
Yeah. I know, hour <laugh>, um, tell me everything, you know, I've got a minute yard. Yeah, exactly.

Peter Kaminski (00:56:19):
Um, I, you know, uh, I think so people participate in commons all the time. Um, uh, we, we have a, like I, I was saying earlier, our capitalist society is not friendly to the idea of commons, but, you know, there are commons, uh, you know, the air that you're breathing is a commons. Uh, the, the space that you're occupying, you know, where, where you are is kind of a commons. Um, I, when, um, uh, and, and it feels good for people to work on something together. That's, that's something that still exists in, uh, in humans and in, in society. Um, so I have a lot of, I have a lot of, um, uh, I see, I hear more and more people talking about the commons. Uh, let's, let's do this as a commons instead of, you know, I want my little slice, um, with, with the way the world is going. Uh, we've got a lot of challenges and more and more, I hear people saying the right way to do this is to start a commons rather than to start something proprietary. So I'm, I'm hopeful.

Doc Searls (00:57:25):
I think some of it has to do with the fact that the original comments, like the original, everything was in the physical world and not in the virtual one. And we're still new to the virtual world. I mean, you're in San Diego or someplace, I think, um, yeah, I'm in the same time zone, but 800 miles away, Shawn's in Michigan and we're all present with each other. And then when the show's over, we're all dispersed and there's no sense that somebody walked away and, um, I just think this is very new to human experience. You know, my, my, my wife compares it to being without gravity, you know, we're in a place that has no gravity, uh, and has no distance. And that's, that's weird, but yet it has like memory. I mean, McEwen before he died said the big thing with computers is 1980 was perfect memory.

Doc Searls (00:58:15):
We'll all have memory, we'll have access to memory. And, and in many ways I think that's what wikis are about. Is it not that to sort of bring this full loop? You know, exactly. You, you know, things I don't know, and the other guy knows things and all, and we all forget by the way, seven seconds later verbatim is lost. <laugh> right. Yeah. And, but we got meaning somehow we need to write things down in code, which is all language is, and it's all writing is, and we're learning many more kinds of code, you know? Um,

Peter Kaminski (00:58:44):
It's um, it's well, well captured that's Wiki is the best wikis, uh, wikis are our commons.

Doc Searls (00:58:50):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I we're, I think we're pretty close to the end here so quickly there, if you could briefly answer, um, anything we haven't asked that you'd like us to have asked and, uh, and brief

Peter Kaminski (00:59:04):
Questions, uh, something that we didn't, uh, something that we didn't really cover is, um, I talked a lot about how Wiki's work, uh, with the files and sharing and stuff. Um, it's also critically important to have, uh, real time conversations around the Wiki. Uh, so you needed a chat channel someplace or, you know, zoom calls or something like that. Your team regularly needs to get together and talk about the Wiki and how we work together in the Wiki. And, you know, what, what things that I've noticed that aren't making me happy or, or things that I think would make the Wiki better together. Um, it's really important to have that, that synchronous, uh, ability to have synchronous or some asynchronous conversations that aren't the content of the Wiki or the way that we do the Wiki. Um, but about, so

Doc Searls (00:59:54):
That's interesting that we do need the synchronous in the asynchronous. I mean, uh, you know, libraries are asynchronous, right? Asynchronous can scale in ways that synchronous can't right. That's, there's a limit to how far you can go as synchronous. So two final questions. What are your favorite text editor and scripting language? <laugh> we ask everybody this,

Peter Kaminski (01:00:17):
Um, my favorite text editor is Emax, um, and I'm a little bit sad that, uh, that V VI and its, you know, uh, descendants have kind of one out. Um, I, I can barely speak VI I'm I'm an Emax person <laugh> so one of the first things I do on a Linux machine is, you know, app get install. Uh, Emax no, no X because I, I'm not a, uh, a gooey person. I'm a terminal person, um, scripting language, uh, right now I'm using I, uh, Python is the, is the one that it's, it's easy and fun and, and powerful and productive to use. Uh, I, I was, uh, I was pretty good at node, uh, for a while and JavaScript, uh, and I've kind of lost that and, and JavaScript has evolved in the past five or 10 years, whatever. Um, so I miss that, uh, I really enjoyed JavaScript the, the later revs of JavaScript, at least. Um, but the Python's my daily driver. Now,

Doc Searls (01:01:15):
It's funny, I've mentioned this before, but when I started with Linux journal in 1996, I was told by command from on high, when there wasn't on high we're using VI here, <laugh> end, end of it. <laugh> so, and it was a religious thing anyway. Uh, Peter's be great having you on the show. Um, likewise, I wish you the best for, for, for massive Wiki and for everything. And I, and I will be seeing you in various comments anyway. So yes, and I look forward to that as well. I

Peter Kaminski (01:01:48):
Look forward to it. Um, thank you, Shawn. Thank you, doc. Uh, you're wonderful as always, thanks for all the things that you do.

Doc Searls (01:01:54):
Oh, you too, man. So Shawn, that was good.

Shawn Powers (01:02:00):
It was. So it makes me think all, you know, why aren't schools at every level that set up little group projects to teach collaboration. Why aren't we doing our final projects with, uh, a folder of markdown files in a Wiki so that everybody can participate? I just think that would, that's a brilliant way to, uh, teach real collaboration.

Doc Searls (01:02:25):
You know, I, I was thinking with, as Pete was talking now, I was given a year of typing instruction in junior high school. Um, all, I mean, just, I was born in a place the scene, so that was, and we had upright typewriters, Royal and Underwoods and one reason it was possibly hear me typing here is I destroy ordinary electronic keyboards, cuz I'm still type hard. And um, you know, and my son took my younger son one weekend, you know, and I asked him, so I gave you Bevis be even typing tutor. How how'd you do with that? Oh yeah, yeah, I did it. You could type. Yeah. And he put into CD, it was in CDH and tested himself. He had 45 words a minute without any trouble. He did it on a weekend. Right. We could take a year <laugh> and teach kids how to, how to write and mark down, how to, how to, how to, how to contribute to a Wiki, make a Wiki make, I mean, schools should be doing this and you work with schools, so can you make them do it?

Shawn Powers (01:03:31):
<laugh> yeah, I don't. Yeah. <laugh> my influence is not quite as, as much as you might think. Um, I, I just like the idea of, uh, group participation in the, the final report, so to speak, right? Because like I said, you know, during the show, it's it, we all, you know, everybody collaborates, we gather around a table, uh, but then somebody is the, you know, the scribe, so to speak and creates that final project. But if, what if every aspect of the final project where, uh, disparate pieces in the, in the markdown, uh, files of the folder that is a week, well Wiki, and you could just turn that in and you know, the that'd be great. The teacher could grade it as a whole. I just think that that's kind of brilliant. I mean, you assume that everybody is participating, um, you know, at a teacher level, maybe every, um, individual person's text is a different color, so the teacher can make sure everybody participated. I don't know. But, uh, it just seems like there's a, there's some value in additional collaboration teaching that we're just not taking advantage of.

Doc Searls (01:04:34):
I, I, one of my takeaways from the show is that collaboration is the next frontier, I think, um, in it's tough in a lot of respects and, and I think it is in school, especially and with, with kids and people working remotely and all that. I just think there's so many more ways of doing it. If everybody knows, they know they know what GI does, they know what Wiki's do. They know how to write and mark down and so on. Yeah. All good. And, uh, my producers are looking at clocks, so I have to <laugh> get to your plug <laugh>

Shawn Powers (01:05:10):
Oh, just, uh, yeah, for me it's, it's the same as always. Um, I got all the things I'm doing. Yeah. I'm it's my, my YouTube page. Oh, remember I'm wearing that same shirt today that I'm wearing in that intro video on my YouTube page. That was not planned from

Doc Searls (01:05:23):
The department of repetition department. <laugh>

Shawn Powers (01:05:26):
But, um, yeah, so I'm there. Uh, like I said, I started to discord, um, just because I want to have better communication with the tiny little Linux learning community that, that I'm forming. So, um, yeah, I go to Shawn Powers.com. It's in my lower third, if my lower thirds anywhere and, um, see all the things I'm doing and join

Doc Searls (01:05:44):
Me. And that's Shawn with S H

Shawn Powers (01:05:46):
S H a w N P zero.

Doc Searls (01:05:49):
That w

Shawn Powers (01:05:50):
V R

Doc Searls (01:05:50):
S. Yeah. Excellent. Well, thanks so much. Uh, Shawn and, and Pete and, uh, the TWiTpeople here for having me in the studio. This is a great place to be. Um, next weekend, of course, I don't have the schedule up, so, oh, okay. <laugh> Avery Petro from pal. Is that right? Palis pal sory. Petran we've had had him in the queue for some time. It'll be a good show. That is next week. I am Doc Searls and I'll see you. Then

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
The world is changing rapidly so rapidly. In fact, that it's hard to keep up. That's why Mikah Sergeant and I, Jason Howell, talk with the people making and breaking the tech news on tech news weekly, every Thursday, they know these stories better than anyone. So why not get them to talk about it in their own words, subscribe to tech news weekly, and you won't miss a beat every Thursday at twit TV.