Intelligent Machines 879 transcript

Please be advised that this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word-for-word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-free version of the show.

Raffi Krikorian [00:00:00]:
It's time for Intelligent Machines. Jeff's here. Paris is here. Our guest Rafi Krikorian is the CTO of Mozilla.org and he just released his state of open source AI. We'll talk about OpenAI models and why we should all get behind them. That and a whole lot more coming up next on Intelligent Machines. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit.

Leo Laporte [00:00:31]:
This is Intelligent Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis. Episode 879 recorded Wednesday, July 15, 2026. Alex Karp. Alex Karp. Alex Carp. It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show. We cover the latest in AI robotics and all the smart doodads and doohickeys all around you. I would like to, before we introduce our very special guest for today's show, introduce.

Leo Laporte [00:00:56]:
Paris Martineau was our very special panelist, investigative journalist from Consumer Reports. Hello Paris.

Paris Martineau [00:01:02]:
Bonjour. Hello Leo.

Leo Laporte [00:01:04]:
Hello. Good to see you. Also professor emeritus of journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at City University of New York.

Paris Martineau [00:01:15]:
Almost got there. You're getting faster.

Leo Laporte [00:01:18]:
If I jump on it, I think I can fool Bonino, but never. That's Jeff Jarvis, author of Hot Type, which emerges from hot presses in two weeks. You can order it right now from jeff jarvis.com hello Jeff.

Raffi Krikorian [00:01:33]:
Hello boss.

Leo Laporte [00:01:34]:
Let me introduce our guest who actually is a fascinating fella. Rafi Krikorian is the engineer Silicon Valley calls when something important is broken. How about that? He fixed the fail whale at Twitter. Ok. Ran Uber's first self driving fleet in Pittsburgh. Rebuilt the Democratic party's technology after the 2016 hack. Stop me if any of this is wrong. Raffi spent six years at the Emerson Collective.

Leo Laporte [00:02:05]:
Lorraine Powell Jobs. Wonderful. Kind of, I guess you call it almost an accelerator for great journalism. And he did a podcast there called Technically Optimistic, which I love you. Since the fall, Rafi has been the first ever portfolio wide CTO at the Mozilla Foundation. It's great to have you, Rafi. Actually one thing that was interesting in your bio, even though you ran Uber's first self driving fleet, you got in an accident in your Tesla under full self driving. Your kids were in the back seat.

Raffi Krikorian [00:02:47]:
That's right.

Leo Laporte [00:02:48]:
And you were concussed.

Raffi Krikorian [00:02:50]:
That is right.

Leo Laporte [00:02:51]:
That was in just a few months ago.

Raffi Krikorian [00:02:53]:
It was in November of this year.

Leo Laporte [00:02:55]:
Is everybody okay?

Raffi Krikorian [00:02:57]:
Everyone's fine. The hardware worked great. The software a bit of a problem.

Paris Martineau [00:03:02]:
Yeah, that seems to be the lack there with full self driving.

Leo Laporte [00:03:07]:
Well, I'm glad I'm do you still

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:09]:
use full self driving?

Raffi Krikorian [00:03:11]:
I do not own a Tesla anymore.

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:13]:
Oh, okay.

Paris Martineau [00:03:15]:
Yeah, I assume getting in an accident with children in the car is enough to.

Raffi Krikorian [00:03:20]:
Enough the insurance on a, on a full collision on a Tesla. It's more than its resale value.

Leo Laporte [00:03:25]:
So totaled. Yeah, it was totaled. In other.

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:27]:
May I ask where you drive now?

Raffi Krikorian [00:03:29]:
I'm back to my 2016 Subaru which I have completely hacked apart. So I'm very happy with that right now.

Leo Laporte [00:03:35]:
And there's no self driving in that at all. Right?

Raffi Krikorian [00:03:38]:
Oh, I mean there's actually a self driving system.

Leo Laporte [00:03:40]:
Are you using comma AI or something in there?

Raffi Krikorian [00:03:42]:
I have hacked a comma AI system into it.

Leo Laporte [00:03:45]:
And do you feel that's more reliable than Tesla's fsd?

Raffi Krikorian [00:03:48]:
No, absolutely not. It just gives you something to tinker

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:50]:
with, just to be clear.

Leo Laporte [00:03:53]:
Well, no comment. AI is very interesting. We've tried to get George on the show for ages and ages. He has actually kind of an interesting take on AI. But let's not. We'll. We'll talk about that when we get him on. Let's talk about today.

Leo Laporte [00:04:04]:
You delivered a talk the first state of open source AI and people can go to the webpage which says by the way, version 1.0 recurring. So this is not the end of the end of it. Your conclusion? Well, I'm going to let you summarize your conclusion then we can look at some of the data.

Raffi Krikorian [00:04:27]:
Yes, I think I would say three things. One is that open source models are almost at parity for everyday use cases. Wow. I think we looked across all the entire model ecosystem, we looked at data from open router, we looked at all these things. It seems like for everyday use cases, not frontier work, which I totally acknowledge that open source models are good enough like people are and the market is shifting toward them. So I think that's number one. I think number two is that the heart, the actual contested parts of the open source AI stack have moved to what we call the agentic harness. It's no longer the models.

Raffi Krikorian [00:05:06]:
There's lots of reasons why people like to talk about models, but it's things like open code or things like the Hermes agent or things like that which actually wrap the model. That's where the contested parts of the OpenStack remain. And then the third is sort of like the sovereignty finding of just like there are a lot of countries around the world which are eager for open source AI systems because in a lot of ways they're worried about the supply chain when it comes to American technologies and what happened with the mythos shut off. And so that sent a ripple effect across the entire world on the sovereignty end. So I think those are the three big stories that have come out as we put this together. And as you mentioned, we view this as a recurring thing. Expect to see 2.0 in a year. We'll probably have 1.1 in the September, and we'll just keep on updating it so we have a good definitive sense of like where open source AI is.

Leo Laporte [00:05:58]:
Because it's moving fast. Everything in AI is moving fast.

Raffi Krikorian [00:06:00]:
Well, six months ago, I wouldn't have talked about agentic harnesses. And so that has been a thing in the last six months.

Leo Laporte [00:06:05]:
How are you Hermes user? And one of the beauty parts of that is from session to session, even from turn to turn, I can change the model. I have all the models in there and I use Ornith, which is a kind of a distillation of Quint. And it's a very good. It's running locally on my machine and 99% of it, it is all I need for agentic work. But that is, I think a lot of people would say, wait a minute, wait a minute. Open weight models are. And by the way, I prefer open weight to open source.

Raffi Krikorian [00:06:35]:
I think it's accurate.

Leo Laporte [00:06:37]:
Okay, because they aren't open source. They don't tell you. They don't tell you the code they're using to train or anything like that. But they, but they will show. But you can get the parameterization, you can get the weight of the model, and maybe more importantly to us, you can get the model.

Raffi Krikorian [00:06:52]:
Exactly.

Leo Laporte [00:06:54]:
If you have enough memory, you could run GLM5 too, locally. And that's probably really mostly what we're talking about when we're talking about open weight.

Jeff Jarvis [00:07:04]:
Do you ever change the weights, Leo? Do you ever screw with the weights?

Leo Laporte [00:07:06]:
I don't. I wouldn't have know how.

Jeff Jarvis [00:07:08]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:07:10]:
But it is kind of cool. You can play with it. But still, I think when you say that open weight models are approximating the frontier models, I think there's a lot of people, especially people who are spending a lot of money on Fable and Saul, who would say, what? Yep.

Raffi Krikorian [00:07:26]:
No, I think that, like, I think it's a jagged frontier.

Leo Laporte [00:07:29]:
I don't think. Isn't it? It's jagged.

Raffi Krikorian [00:07:31]:
So it is not. It is not the case that the open weight models are equivalent on all tasks. I'm saying that they are equivalent for about like 80% of everyday tasks. I mean, I equate. I equate it to like, I Don't need a Ferrari to manage my calendar. In fact, like, it's probably annoying to drive a Ferrari to manage my calendar.

Leo Laporte [00:07:50]:
Fable should not manage my calendar. I've been.

Raffi Krikorian [00:07:53]:
But I think like GLM 5.2, which is what I'm using, works great on my calendar. And it's me, if you run a hosted version of GLM5, I too run it locally. But if you run it on Neb or stuff like that, it's something like 20 to 50 times cheaper than running something like a Fable.

Paris Martineau [00:08:09]:
Are there any use cases for where this is true that were surprising to you?

Raffi Krikorian [00:08:15]:
I mean, I do think that, like, one of the biggest questions is can these things run overnight and not be, not be talked to while they're doing things? Like, can they actually just keep on working on a complicated task while I sleep? I don't think the answer is there yet. So like, if you try to get it to write a large amount of code that would take a couple of hours even for one of these things to go do, they'll kind of go off the rails in the middle of the night after like three hours of making that number up, something in the order of three hours. Whereas Fable will probably get me through the night. Like I'll probably keep on going and I can wake up the next morning be like, oh, that's great, let's keep going. And so I think like these Long Horizon tasks are where they're, they're still not quite there yet.

Jeff Jarvis [00:08:56]:
Here's talk, talk for a second about, about the methodology you used today to, to, to compare them. And I, because we talked about this last week, the benchmarks that the companies use are kind of meaningless to us as consumers. So, so I want to hear about, about the methodology you use now. But then also I'm imagining the methodology is going to change. It's not like you have a standard test. So how did you do this and how are you going to do this in the future?

Raffi Krikorian [00:09:19]:
So two things. One is we relied on all of the different benchmarks. So we didn't pick one particular benchmark. We looked at them all to try to understand both an agentic cases. There's a bunch of benchmarks we use for everyday use cases and things like that. But then the other thing we did just more of a personal test. So we actually have a setup where we've recorded for myself literally every single prompt I've given to a system in the past couple of weeks we call the system Morph. And what it's allowed us to do is just Record every prompt and record every output so we can replay it.

Raffi Krikorian [00:09:51]:
So we can then replay all those prompts against different models and just look at them. So it's not the most scientific case. We're not comparing the actual outputs rigorously because it's very hard to do that. But we can eyeball them and just be like, oh, this one got it close, this one didn't get it close. But I think the first part of just recording every little thing we do was the key part of it.

Jeff Jarvis [00:10:13]:
Did you use the same prompts then against each model?

Leo Laporte [00:10:15]:
Correct.

Raffi Krikorian [00:10:16]:
Then we can replay them on different models.

Jeff Jarvis [00:10:17]:
On different models. Got it.

Leo Laporte [00:10:18]:
So the graph on the website is Chatbot Arena.

Raffi Krikorian [00:10:22]:
Correct.

Leo Laporte [00:10:24]:
You feel like that's a good measure?

Raffi Krikorian [00:10:26]:
I think Chatbot arena is a good one for just like what everyday use cases look like. So, yes, we do think that's a good one, but we're corroborating it. So anything we've put on state of open source, we have a good gut sense. That is correct because we've looked at it through this lens as well.

Leo Laporte [00:10:41]:
So this is based on this Chatbot Arena.

Raffi Krikorian [00:10:44]:
Correct.

Leo Laporte [00:10:44]:
Going back to January 2024, closed models led open models by 8%, which is, I think. Is that significant? Is that a significant.

Raffi Krikorian [00:10:53]:
That's significant. I mean, that's significant. So, like, if you give it a test of 100 different things, it's about eight of them. It would fail comparatively. That's pretty significant.

Leo Laporte [00:11:01]:
Okay. And at the time, that was llama, which wasn't the best open weight model, but it was the one. But you see a precipitous drop to August 2024 when it goes down to 0.5%. And then as we know, this is the big watershed. Deep seq R1 came out in February of last year and that opened everybody's eyes as to what an open weight model could do.

Raffi Krikorian [00:11:27]:
Yep.

Leo Laporte [00:11:27]:
I think, in fact, it sent a shock through the American AI industry. We're back up now to a bigger gap. But you estimate that, right?

Raffi Krikorian [00:11:36]:
I think we're getting. I think we're getting closer on, and I think we're getting even closer. I think, like the chapter arena data doesn't account things like GLM 5.2 or the latest Kiwi models and things like that. So I think we'll actually get closer.

Leo Laporte [00:11:48]:
Yeah. GLM 5.2 is amazing. Yeah.

Raffi Krikorian [00:11:50]:
Because I think, like, these new models showed up coincidentally and I do think it's coincidental. I don't think there's anything nefarious about it. When the fable shut off happened. It's around the same week all these new models dropped.

Leo Laporte [00:12:01]:
We got all of a sudden and it was that rug pull by the federal government woke up was kind of like the deep sea aftershock where everybody went, whoa, this could happen. And actually now we're in this kind of crisis moment because the Chinese government has started to make noises about shutting down. All the really good open weight models right now come from China. Is that right?

Raffi Krikorian [00:12:25]:
That is correct.

Leo Laporte [00:12:27]:
And they're talking about restricting that. I've seen people on X say everybody download all the models. There's a new, it's called hugging bay, a kind of a pirate's bay for models. People are nervous that we're going to lose access to these open weight models.

Jeff Jarvis [00:12:47]:
Whereas two weeks ago I thought that China was going to undercut the entire US AI market. I thought that was the strategy making them virtually free. So was there a flip flop in their, an open flip flop in their strategy or was it we were just wrong?

Raffi Krikorian [00:13:00]:
Well, I don't know if I have a good answer for that. I think they caught literally everyone by surprise and I don't think they're saying exactly why. I'm fundamentally confused by it because I do think that China's open model strategy is a little bit of their soft power strategy. So like, I, like I don't fully understand what their rationale is behind it, but I guess we'll find out soon.

Leo Laporte [00:13:17]:
I, I think there might even be multiple parties at work here. I think the companies see this as a way to get market share and I think the Chinese Communist Party sees this as leverage and I think there may be other parties involved in this. And that's why there's kind of a, it's not like we're a unified country in our opinions either, I want to say. So the cost of inference has fallen dramatically.

Raffi Krikorian [00:13:42]:
Correct.

Leo Laporte [00:13:44]:
And the use of open weights has risen. This graph on the right, the share of tokens routed on open router through open weight models was essentially zero to now being a majority. Yep.

Raffi Krikorian [00:13:58]:
It's kind of, it's kind of wild in my opinion. Like, I think, like, I think it's a question of just like the innovation or experimentation curve that people are on of just like when they're trying new things. They're tinkering with the big models from Anthropic or chatgpt or OpenAI. But as they're getting closer to production, they're like, we can't afford that. Like we can't afford and we can't deal with variable Pricing, we can't deal with the fact that the White House might shut it off. And so they figure out at that point when they're ready to get to volume, what's the right model for the right cost. And those tend to be open weight models, it seems. And then they pin to it so that they know it won't change behavior, won't change.

Raffi Krikorian [00:14:34]:
It can get good pricing, good volume kind of thing.

Leo Laporte [00:14:38]:
So if China cuts it off and the US cuts it off, are there other places to go, other minutes?

Raffi Krikorian [00:14:45]:
I mean, right now the answer is sadly no. I mean, like, look, I don't think it's a good place for us to be in a single closed ecosystem with just us closed providers. I also don't think we're in good in a open ecosystem with only one country that provides it. So no, we actually have a problem here as well. I mean, thankfully other countries are starting to make a lot of noise that they need to go invest in it. Mostly the Europeans because they want to not have downstream dependence. Yeah. They don't want to have dependence on the US supply chain.

Raffi Krikorian [00:15:15]:
They also don't want to have dependence on Chinese supply chain. So the Europeans are starting to make a lot of noise on it. They started making investments with the Swiss, with the, with the French, etc. So we'll see where those go.

Jeff Jarvis [00:15:25]:
Is Mistral open weight?

Raffi Krikorian [00:15:27]:
Mistral does have opening falls, yes.

Jeff Jarvis [00:15:28]:
Okay. What about the role of Nematron in this?

Raffi Krikorian [00:15:31]:
Yeah, I mean like with Nvidia is up to. It could be super interesting as well. Like they're not, not quite there yet on quality, but that could be super interesting.

Jeff Jarvis [00:15:39]:
And the role of. I find myself in this weird position where I'm agreeing with Alex Karp about anything in life. I know, but arguing that companies are giving away their alpha, their, their business intelligence to the foundation models instead. Come to him, trust him by making a saddle on open source models. Is that, is he right in terms of how. Not, not just morally, but I mean in terms of how companies are going to think. Is that going to win the day? That open source might also be like Apache in the day versus a Netscape browser or server, that open source might win the commercial battle?

Raffi Krikorian [00:16:16]:
I do think it's very likely that we could get to a place that open source wins a vast majority of the commercial battle. I don't think it wins 100%. I do think there is a world where, if we think about an interoperable world, if you think about your Apache world, if you think about a lamp stack like I think we get to a place where like all these different components are swappable and so like we can try a closed source model while we're still in an experimentation stage but when we get to like real production, we want to like own it and pin it. Like it's similar to what Pinterest did. In Pinterest and Q4 they switched to an open weight model that they self host and saved them like $10 million that quarter. And so like it's just like they had to get to the place that they knew what they were doing and stopped experimenting that they can actually select the right model and then deploy that.

Leo Laporte [00:17:00]:
Of course there are challenges to hosting your own model. Of course you have to have an open weight model to begin with, but you also have to have a lot of horsepower, RAM and CPU power. And it's very, thanks to the frontier companies. Very, very expensive right now. The best. I mean I've been using Deep Seq Flash. China's priced that at pennies on the dollar. I mean it's a tiny cost but I couldn't run that.

Leo Laporte [00:17:30]:
I could run a Flash version I guess, but I can't run the full Deepseek V4 Pro at home. I definitely can't run the full GLM 5.2. Are you running, you must be running a smaller version of GLM if you want.

Raffi Krikorian [00:17:42]:
Yeah, I run the version that can be quantized down to what can fit on a DGX Spark. So that's what I do at my home. But I think for these enterprises, I think this is just a OPEX capex calculation. At some point the price of the tokens get to so high that it actually makes sense to buy servers and have the SRE if you can get it. If you can get it.

Leo Laporte [00:18:03]:
But. And then you're right, Jeff, that there's a huge concern. We're going to talk about it later in the news section about privacy. It's become very clear that when you use a cloud based model, in order to use a cloud based model it has to upload everything. In fact, people just found out that GROK is in fact uploading more than everything. And that's a huge issue for a company. It's a huge issue for everybody privacy wise. But it's a big issue for companies with proprietary data.

Leo Laporte [00:18:32]:
So that's another, another concern. There's a lot of incentive for a company to do this locally.

Raffi Krikorian [00:18:36]:
Yeah, regulated spaces, for example, like they're not going to want to upload their stuff. They're going to want to have that under regular control.

Leo Laporte [00:18:41]:
And we know the Pentagon, for instance, does not run Fable or Mythos on Anthropic servers. They run it on aws, you know, private government hosted servers. That's going to be another big business by the way, is private computer some assurance of that?

Jeff Jarvis [00:18:58]:
There's so much regulation news this week. Demis Hassabis with his proposal. Politico on Anthropic is out there state by state doing regulatory capture on their stuff. OpenAI has been giving away equity and so on. The White House has its new thing and there's China doing what China does, we've discussed. So there's this huge crunch coming here and there's some fear that open open models could be outlawed, could be restricted in some way. How much of a fear? That's our best competition. It's not, not one civil company to the big guys.

Jeff Jarvis [00:19:39]:
It's the, it's the, the institution of open source coming out of this and seeing how important open source is. And I fear that your report isn't, is it a bit of a red cape to a bull to the frontier companies is like, oh, open source is ever more a threat to them.

Leo Laporte [00:20:00]:
Yeah, you're telling them anything they don't already know.

Jeff Jarvis [00:20:02]:
Exactly. But they're going to push ever more for regulatory capture. So how much danger could open source be in?

Raffi Krikorian [00:20:09]:
No, I think it's open source under a massive attack right now. Like, in fact, like to the point, I'll be very honest, to the point that like, I think I underestimated how much ATTCK open source is on until we put this report together. Because as we started talking about it, the amount of, I mean, I think the reception I would say is about 80, 20, 80% is incredibly positive toward it and 20% is outright hostile. And so I think we underestimated that. But I think I want to also remind us that there's the rest of the world out there. So yeah, I think we're going to have a lot of problems in the United States when it comes to open, but I think the rest of the world is actually leaning in because they sort of see the same model that built the Internet, built Linux, stuff like that.

Jeff Jarvis [00:20:46]:
But on the other hand, I went to a World Economic Forum event about two years ago in San Francisco and there was a contingent there that said open source, open model, open weight is dangerous because people can take down the guardrails. God knows we shouldn't have them. So there' swhich sounds a little European to me too. Is the regulate, regulate mindset is we must control. And the frontier companies say, well you can control us, we'll write the regulation, but we'll be there. And you know who we are, we know what we're doing. I think there'll be some set of people who are worried of the, the moral panic level of worry about AI could hit open source first. It's not just the frontiers companies, it's also others saying this shit's dangerous.

Jeff Jarvis [00:21:32]:
And there's some think that's the most dangerous. I think that's wrong. But they'll say that no.

Raffi Krikorian [00:21:37]:
And I agree. And I think that like a lot of that's actually going to come from the big frontier labs pushing that narrative in the grand scheme of things. I think that like, I think the question that the other countries and we, you know, we talk to a lot of them all the time, it's going to be a race between do they think about sovereignty or do they think about, about those fears of which ones are going to come first? Because I think if they want to think about sovereignty, and I've heard this directly from a bunch of them, their only path to it in this world is to start to build on those open wage models, to start fine tuning them toward what their country needs and stuff like that. So I think like cutting off the open wave models and maybe someone needs to connect the dots for them, could be undercutting their sovereignty plans. But like they at least need someplace to start right now.

Leo Laporte [00:22:16]:
So you we're again talking to Rafi Krikorian, he's the CTO of Mozilla and, and just today published Mozilla's first State of the Open Source AI. It's all online at OpenSource AI. You say open ship's easy but deploys hard. What does that mean?

Raffi Krikorian [00:22:35]:
Yeah, I mean it's really easy to publish these open weight models. Like we're seeing them all the time. Hugging face has what, 13 million more models that you can download. But the biggest thing, we did this developer survey worldwide where we asked developers like are you using open source or closed source? If you used open source, when did you use it, what happened? Stuff like that. And open source has a huge churn problem. Like I think like a lot of people have tried open weight models and open source systems but then they gave up because it was too hard to maintain stuff that we've talked about. It was too hard to stand up. They had to figure out the talent to be the SREs.

Raffi Krikorian [00:23:10]:
They had to get access to all these GPUs that they would Deploy hard that they would deploy, deploy inside. So something like 70% of people who tried it didn't follow through with it.

Leo Laporte [00:23:22]:
It's easier than firing up Claude code and.

Raffi Krikorian [00:23:25]:
Exactly. Even I have this thing when I do a weekend hack, I'm hitting the OpenAI API, right? So that's the thing that we as an open source community need to fix that if we really want this path to go. We need to make it as easy as using the OpenAI API or get as close to it as possible.

Leo Laporte [00:23:43]:
Well, that's why those open harnesses are so important. And the Open API from OpenAI, well,

Jeff Jarvis [00:23:49]:
so this is your audience for this. Are LEOs are people who are going to try to install this stuff?

Leo Laporte [00:23:53]:
I think the audience is enterprise more than.

Jeff Jarvis [00:23:55]:
Well, that too.

Leo Laporte [00:23:56]:
There's a lot of people, but enterprise

Paris Martineau [00:23:59]:
is also a, I feel like a broader category that's going to just require a lot more fine tuning. Like the LEOs I think are going to be the easiest adopters because they're willing to get in there, get their

Leo Laporte [00:24:09]:
hands and I got nothing.

Paris Martineau [00:24:10]:
Work the enterprise like what? Well, why don't I continue to renew my enterprise anthropic subscription, which is going to be a bit harder.

Raffi Krikorian [00:24:20]:
But I think one of the things that happened there is just like, you know, we ran this experiment in Mozilla AI, one of our subsidiaries and one of our top engineers just did the math. He's just like, well, if I actually had to do API calls for everything I did all month long, it would have been $10,000. Instead, right now I'm paying a $200 Claude subscription. Is that going to end after the IPO? Is this going to follow the same thing as like rideshare pr? So like that, that could actually be one of the drivers too.

Leo Laporte [00:24:46]:
It is a risk and if it happens, you better be ready. It's like you can't, if they do pull the rug, you can't just say, oh, well, now I'm going to start using glm. Now's the time to start planning and thinking about that kind of thing.

Jeff Jarvis [00:24:59]:
Well, is there, is there like WordPress in the early days was so smart versus its competitors. By being open, it enabled its competitors to become hosts, just like WordPress is.

Leo Laporte [00:25:09]:
That's exactly the point I was going to make. This reminds me so much of the early days of open source software where there was a, you know, yeah, you could always use LibreOffice, but Microsoft Office is a no brainer. Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM, right?

Raffi Krikorian [00:25:23]:
Well,

Leo Laporte [00:25:25]:
it's the same battle Though it's just moved forward into the AI sphere.

Raffi Krikorian [00:25:30]:
Correct.

Leo Laporte [00:25:31]:
And, and I think we now know, looking back that we should have probably supported open source a lot harder. Now maybe it's time to support open weight AI.

Jeff Jarvis [00:25:42]:
So the reason I was asking about the audience for this, because I think you write it's enterprise and it's, and it's, you know, what do I call you? A hobbyist? More than that.

Leo Laporte [00:25:52]:
Enthusiast.

Jeff Jarvis [00:25:53]:
Enthusiast, Right. Paris is an investigative reporter at Consumer Reports and she doesn't speak for Consumer Reports on this show. But when do we think that that AI gets to the point that consumers are going to want the same kind of judgment about the various eyes that they would get from Consumer Reports about refrigerators or cars or anything else?

Leo Laporte [00:26:14]:
No consumer is saying, should I use an open weight?

Jeff Jarvis [00:26:16]:
Not now, not now.

Paris Martineau [00:26:18]:
If I tried to say that to my mom, I think her head would explode and just something would spill out of her ears, you know, Bob, your

Jeff Jarvis [00:26:25]:
ears are the wrong saddle.

Leo Laporte [00:26:27]:
Harper Reed convinced me to buy this Chinese ESP32 based AI orb that goes right to deep seek right through you connect it to your wi fi. What could possibly go wrong and then it immediately connects to China. I don't think mom wants this, but mom does want, I mean that's why Siri is so important. Apple's move with Siri is so important. Mom does want some easy way to use this stuff and I think it's really important.

Jeff Jarvis [00:26:55]:
Well, if you get to that WordPress hosted world where people can do things with it, when does it become a consumer.

Raffi Krikorian [00:27:01]:
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:27:01]:
Industry. It's not yet, but.

Raffi Krikorian [00:27:03]:
No, no, I mean I, there is no reason it can't happen now. And, but I think the problem is that like it's the same thing that happens with privacy on the Internet. Right. People theoretically think they want privacy and I, and I in their, in their mind, in their heart's heart, I believe they do. But they're going to trade convenience for it at any moment. And so like the exact same thing is happening here. There's a paper out of University in Maryland, I believe just earlier this year which did an analysis of like what the chatbots recommend when you ask it to do shopping questions. So like maybe the Consumer Reports, like example, and they showed that over 50% of the chatbots were actually recommending sponsored goods.

Raffi Krikorian [00:27:37]:
Right. Like, and you have to ask yourself why that's happening. But most consumers might not care. So we need, we like, we need like the Firefox of this moment. Like, we need something that's like convenient, elegant, to use and things like that. That also protects consumers. I don't think they're going to do it by themselves.

Jeff Jarvis [00:27:55]:
So does Mozilla do that?

Raffi Krikorian [00:27:57]:
Mozilla could be one of the people who do it. But I think where I'm really focused on is that if we can build really good tools to enable people to build on the open source ecosystem, then maybe a thousand of those could show up. I worry Mozilla will only build one, but I want lots of them to happen.

Leo Laporte [00:28:14]:
That's really interesting. You make the point also that open isn't a vendor choice, it's a sovereignty choice.

Raffi Krikorian [00:28:20]:
Correct.

Leo Laporte [00:28:21]:
This is about sovereignty. Data sovereignty, governmental sovereignty. It's very important. And these AI is a non trivial new technology.

Jeff Jarvis [00:28:30]:
God, how I hate agreeing with Alex Karp.

Leo Laporte [00:28:34]:
That was his message.

Jeff Jarvis [00:28:35]:
That's his argument.

Raffi Krikorian [00:28:36]:
Yeah, yeah, but like, I mean the same thing applied to cloud back in the day, right? Like you're not gonna talk to any business these days that are just like, I only build for aws. No, they build like in a generic way so that when the AWS bill shows up they're gonna be like, well, screw you guys and go into Azure. So I think we need to get to the same mentality when it comes like to our token provider.

Leo Laporte [00:28:55]:
Although somewhat this sovereignty conversation ends up being, as it is in the eu, more about which government is going to control this. And I don't think that's a solution for us. One of the reasons China is succeeding is because they've had such a light hand, light touch, regulatory wise, and they are such a capitalist society and there's so many companies who are scrambling and even though they haven't been able to get the hardware, they haven't been able to get, get the chips. They've found ways around it, maybe distillation of American models, I don't know. But I think the lack of regulation has really helped the Chinese models. But a lot of times when you say sovereignty, governments just say, oh yeah, that Stan, get out of the way. Here we come.

Raffi Krikorian [00:29:40]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean sovereignty might be the wrong word, but like the ability to have choice I think is really important because I think, because I think that like, you know, one of the pieces of regulation that could push this around this are like data locality rules. Right? Like I don't want my data to leave my country's borders because I don't know what those guys are going to do with it. And like that might force a bunch of these conversations as well. Yeah,

Leo Laporte [00:30:03]:
we're almost out of time. I'm Thrilled that we can talk to you, Raffi Krikorian. I'm also thrilled that you did not. You survived your Tesla crash to write this. The Mozilla State of Open Source AI, which is available at State of Open. Open Source AI. I gave the wrong URL out earlier. People should download it, they should read it.

Leo Laporte [00:30:23]:
You can read it on the web. What would you like to see next? What do you want to have happen as a result of this report?

Raffi Krikorian [00:30:31]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, there's a whole alliance of people who are building to the open, right? Like Clem from Hugging Face just tweeted, I think this morning that he's going to show up in San Francisco and they should do a rally on open source. So I think that like, I think we need like, those.

Paris Martineau [00:30:45]:
I'd love to see the demographics of that rally.

Raffi Krikorian [00:30:49]:
They're all going to look like, like me with like white in their beard and stuff like that.

Paris Martineau [00:30:52]:
It's going to be a lot of men in Polos, but it's going to be a really interesting mix of Polos.

Leo Laporte [00:30:58]:
Just don't carry tiki torches and you'll be okay.

Raffi Krikorian [00:31:01]:
Yeah, but I think that, I think we need more and more people. Like, we need more proof points, we need more examples and we need more learnings, right? Like all these companies are deploying large amounts of like, what they called FDEs, right? Like the four deployed engineers that's getting their software out and embedded into Fortune 500 companies left and right. So we need, need, we need the counter, we need the alternative, we need the third way to show up here. And I think the technology is ready. So now it's a deployment problem. So now we need people to trust it enough to deploy it.

Jeff Jarvis [00:31:32]:
Is there revenue needed for, for the development of more open source models?

Raffi Krikorian [00:31:35]:
I mean, yeah, I mean, I think money. I mean, I think the amount of money that these companies are going to spend on marketing this year alone dwarfs the entire money in Mozilla's endowment, right? So, like, I think, yes, yes, money is always helpful, but at the same time, we're seeing people, even like a 16Z, we're seeing investors throwing lots of money toward open source right now, but it's unfocused, it's all scattered. We just need to like, we need to actually, we need the LAMP stack of AI. Like, we need that kind of rallying of like we're coming together to build software that can be deployed like an Ubuntu or deployed like a Linux or things like that.

Leo Laporte [00:32:11]:
I think, honestly, we also need a lot of smart innovators to work on ways to get models smaller, to work on ways to get miners smarter, to think about models that slice up the problem space so that they do specific things well. And I think that's going to take. This is what's interesting. I think it happens every time there's new technology. People talk about job loss but I think there are going to be in fact many jobs created for people who are smart about this and can create something of real value.

Jeff Jarvis [00:32:41]:
Models for moments.

Leo Laporte [00:32:43]:
Yeah, I'm very grateful to Mozilla. I use Firefox and I think if it weren't for Mozilla we would be in a one browser world. I think open source really is super important and I think open weight models are equally important. As you say in your report, we bet on open the first time, open one together we can do it again. Go ahead.

Jeff Jarvis [00:33:08]:
So you had a busy week. I don't know if you had a chance to read Demis Habas proposal for regulatory in summary. It's, it's he's proposing a private public FINRA and that there be a 30 day period of judging and this always

Leo Laporte [00:33:27]:
comes from the people who are behind, by the way.

Jeff Jarvis [00:33:29]:
That too. Yes.

Leo Laporte [00:33:32]:
Slow down, let us catch up.

Jeff Jarvis [00:33:36]:
Well, but we'll get to I presume later the anthropic commercial commercial which is really interesting where.

Leo Laporte [00:33:41]:
With the gravestones.

Jeff Jarvis [00:33:42]:
Yeah, the gravestones where they're also saying no, stop right now, we're ahead. Let's just stop everything else right now because we're there. Right. But I wonder. So I'm on another show and I was talking about Jason Howell earlier today and as I thought about it, I'm nervous about government regulation of AI. I'm nervous about this FINRA thing still the people who now have the power establishing it. And so the fact that you came in and you judged AIs, you judged them against a, you know, how, how good are they? Do you also come in at some point and, and delve into the how dangerous are they or

Raffi Krikorian [00:34:29]:
because we need

Jeff Jarvis [00:34:29]:
independent voices to judge AI on quality and risk and so on rather than I think thinking that we can create some officialdom to do it. And I think to empower Mozilla and academics to do it, universities to do it is to my mind the best way forward. So long winded Joe Scarborough like question to ask. What do you think about the various regulatory schemes that are being presented these days? Pluses, minuses and alternatives?

Raffi Krikorian [00:35:02]:
No, I mean I think that, I think we're all Being distracted again by like what's at the true edge and frontier. So like, I don't think for most businesses the true edge and frontier is what actually matters. So I think, like, I think it's in the best interest of all these companies for us to be talking about like, what is the Ferrari look like? And I'm saying that like most of us only need a Camry or a Toyota kind of thing. So like, I think for, I think we need to separate those conversations and allow us to go work on the 80% use cases and allow people to actually build real businesses and actually get real diffusion of these type of technologies and then we can have a conversation about what the frontier governance looks like. I still maintain that open makes a lot of sense there because then we can have conversations about what the open guardrails look like. We have questions about like, what does open permission systems look like? Like, I don't want to be in a world where like the decisions for the entire world are controlled by what, seven Silicon Valley CEOs plus one person of the White House. Like that seems crazy to me. But like if we can have a way that actually have what you're calling like an open education system with open guardrails and open techniques around management of it, I think that's a way better world for us to live in.

Leo Laporte [00:36:07]:
I'll read from the State of opensource AI webpage. Our belief is simple. The path forward is competition and interoperability. We believe in a world of many models, standard ways to plug them together, and the freedom to walk away from any vendor at any time. I think that's the world we want. This world we've been advocating for on this show pretty much from day one. Rafi, thank you so much for your work at such a pleasure. We appreciate it.

Leo Laporte [00:36:32]:
Thank you for joining us on Intelligent Machines. We'll be right back after this. Well, this was as always, a huge week in AI with lots of news. I guess we should start with Apple suing OpenAI. This is the most public breach. They were partners. ChatGPT was the thing Siri went to when it couldn't handle your question. It still does, but I have a feeling that those days may be numbered.

Leo Laporte [00:36:57]:
Apple alleges that a 24 year executive, he was at Apple 24 years. Vice President at the design.

Jeff Jarvis [00:37:05]:
Oh, he wasn't 24 years old. He was 24 years.

Leo Laporte [00:37:08]:
Been there.

Paris Martineau [00:37:08]:
Paris here I was about to say not 20. I thought you meant 24 year old as well.

Leo Laporte [00:37:14]:
But no, no, no, 24 year executive, 24 year 10.

Jeff Jarvis [00:37:17]:
No fool.

Leo Laporte [00:37:18]:
Supposedly he but he was a member of Apple's it was executive suite. He was their chief hardware officer. He had been involved in the design of the iPhone, the AirPods, the Apple Watch. I mean he was so trusted that when he decided in 2024 to leave Apple, Apple said good, you could take your time. We want you to train your successor. No hurry. We're not, you don't have to, you know, we're not going to lock the doors behind you. Maybe they should have at least according to, according to this lawsuit.

Leo Laporte [00:37:49]:
And again this is Apple's side of the story. OpenAI says we don't steal. We don't steal companies.

Jeff Jarvis [00:37:54]:
We don't need to.

Leo Laporte [00:37:55]:
We don't, we don't care. Of course if you, if you don't trust OpenAI and I think there is kind of this general thought especially after the Ronan Farrer article in the New Yorker that maybe Sam Altman is a little bit slippery. This might just play right into that narrative. They accuse OpenAI accuses Apple accuses OpenAI of. Well, so I give you the scenario. Tang tan left in 2024. He and another member of the Apple technical staff went to I O which Johnny I've, you may remember him as Apple's head designer for many years had started went to work for them. And then a couple of years later you may also remember Sam Altman and Jony I've walking into a bar looking

Paris Martineau [00:38:43]:
like they were about to announce a pregnancy.

Leo Laporte [00:38:45]:
Yeah, I have the men who for you $6.2 billion acquisition of IO Products. Along with that comes Tang Tan. By the way, we should mention Johnny I've is not mentioned anywhere in this lawsuit.

Paris Martineau [00:38:58]:
That's actually kind of interesting, isn't it?

Leo Laporte [00:39:02]:
They say that Tan when he left brought company secrets with him and emailed Apple suppliers and said hey, I might have a job for you. Told job candidates interviewing people that were still working for Apple to bring actual parts from Apple to the interview.

Paris Martineau [00:39:24]:
To which the job candidates repeatedly said we're allowed to do that.

Leo Laporte [00:39:27]:
Well at least one which I think is one did.

Jeff Jarvis [00:39:30]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:39:31]:
I think the suspicion is that that's the guy who went to Apple and said hey, you know what they're doing here? Because I think this is what happened.

Paris Martineau [00:39:38]:
I mean the amount of details in this suggest to me more than one person turns.

Leo Laporte [00:39:43]:
Yeah, but it's all Apple's point of view. Yeah, it's not. This is.

Paris Martineau [00:39:46]:
But Apple is also notorious about kind of collecting this sort of information slowly, methodically and then waiting so that they can strike.

Leo Laporte [00:39:58]:
Well, they claim that they sent a cease and desist order to open AI OpenAI says, yeah, okay, your outside lawyer sent it to Wang, but he should have sent it to Chang. And because he sent it to the wrong guy, that's.

Jeff Jarvis [00:40:13]:
We didn't reply with the Chinese name.

Leo Laporte [00:40:16]:
You were confused. It's, it's. This story is amazing. It was a 41 page complaint, which reads like a great novel. I mean, you, you gotta, you gotta read the pleading.

Jeff Jarvis [00:40:29]:
It's just, let's not forget Apple was the company.

Paris Martineau [00:40:31]:
It's one of those complaints that's classically, that's written for a mass audience. Audience.

Jeff Jarvis [00:40:35]:
Yeah.

Paris Martineau [00:40:35]:
Sorry to interrupt you.

Leo Laporte [00:40:36]:
Well, that's an important point because that's an interesting question is why Apple? What's going on here? Are you trying to stop OpenAI from making a hardware product which everybody says they're about to do? In fact, we'll talk about what the leak says that product will be this year. Are you trying to put the kibosh on their ipo, which is perhaps imminent? What's going on? Or maybe you're just really hurt.

Paris Martineau [00:41:02]:
I mean, Apple is kind of famously, if not litigious, they're famously maniacal in a way. Vindictive and maniacal in a way that borders on litigious. Regardless of whether it happens in the actual court of law like this, sort of. The amount of details and tenor of this complaint wasn't surprising to me as someone who's just tangentially followed Apple bloof in and out of the courtroom.

Jeff Jarvis [00:41:32]:
Let's also remember Gizmodo and sending Apple cops after a reporter who came across a stray iPhone.

Leo Laporte [00:41:40]:
Right.

Paris Martineau [00:41:42]:
The thing, what a story of interest

Leo Laporte [00:41:44]:
is, of course, everything that Apple's asserting here can be proven or disproven in court with discovery. Discovery is always a double edged sword, as Apple learned in the epic lawsuit that sometimes stuff gets revealed in your own secrets that you maybe don't want revealed. But yesterday we were talking about this on MacBreak weekly. There was some speculation that I think Andy Inocco said they want to turn OpenAI upside down and shake them really hard.

Paris Martineau [00:42:17]:
Yeah. I think the thing that's just important to emphasize here is that Apple, more so than any tech company I know of, is maniacal when it comes to leakers. They wish they will follow the ghost of a leaker to the end of the earth and then write up for like a 40 page complaint about it just to try and stop people from following in their footsteps. They're one of the few companies in Silicon Valley that still to this day, even in an age of constantly and inside reporting, will really go after people for it. So I think that this being OpenAI, of course they're going to turn what was already something up to 10. They're going to turn it up to 22.

Leo Laporte [00:43:01]:
It'll be very interesting to see what happens. You know, it could, there's a number of scenarios. It could go on for five years. I mean it could really not harm Open AI hardware efforts because it could go on for so long that by the time Apple got a judgment, OpenAI would be on the eighth generation of whatever they're doing.

Jeff Jarvis [00:43:22]:
Well, or does it, does it. I mean, the rumors we're going to get to about OpenAI I think sounds like a really dumb product. Might this have affected their rollout that oh, we were going to come up with a phone, but bad timing. Let's come up with something stupid instead.

Leo Laporte [00:43:38]:
Remember, there's no way of law here. This is just a, a lawsuit, a complaint.

Paris Martineau [00:43:43]:
Anybody can say anything in a complaint. People, Nobody.

Leo Laporte [00:43:45]:
I will also say that for doing, from doing anything. One of the people who left Fairly recently for OpenAI is the head of glasses at Apple. So OpenAI has. The guy who was working for years, I, I'm sure on Apple Eyewear on specs does, you know, OpenAI's first product, the rumor is will be a wireless speaker. Speaker, no screen, just a speaker. I don't know if Apple would be threatened in any way by that. It's unclear. I mean, I think you're right, Paris, that really Apple is doing what Apple does, which is they hate it when there's leaks like this.

Leo Laporte [00:44:22]:
They think that they were wronged badly and they may just simply be pursuing it because that's what you do. They may not have any motive, any subtext.

Paris Martineau [00:44:33]:
I mean, I think it could be both. I think they could have subtext. I think they could be a bit, bit annoyed at OpenAI kind of encroaching on the cool, slick tech company role that Apple has but historically helped them.

Leo Laporte [00:44:49]:
I mean, is there any reason why it would stop Johnny I from continuing to go ahead?

Paris Martineau [00:44:54]:
I don't, I'm not sure that. Well, I guess I don't know. But instinctively I'm not sure that Johnny, I've is who they're trying to get back at in this. I think that they're trying to stop general brain drain and this sort of leaks.

Leo Laporte [00:45:08]:
Maybe a message for current employees?

Paris Martineau [00:45:10]:
Oh, no, it's, it's entirely for current employees. I Would say it's for current employees, it's for people who have left that are thinking about leaking information about supply chain. Basically any of the inner working of a company like Apple, they're incredibly protective over much like every company. But Apple really wants to defend that in either court or in kind of private like pre litigation demand letters. They have kind of. They've just taken the hardline approach. The best way to stop any of this information from leaking out is to deter people. They're doing the stick rather than the carrot.

Leo Laporte [00:45:49]:
So in that case it wouldn't open. AI's hired 400 Apple employees over the last.

Paris Martineau [00:45:55]:
I mean that sounds like a lot. No, I bet that more have gone to.

Leo Laporte [00:45:58]:
I'm sure more have gone to Mac meta. Right.

Paris Martineau [00:46:01]:
A bunch of gone everywhere. Part of it is them trying to be like hey, all of you Apple employees for everybody else. No, you. I mean both to the people who are going there, but the ones currently there, they're like, don't even think about thinking about telling them a secret code name of a project you worked on.

Jeff Jarvis [00:46:17]:
Well, I imagine patting down employees at the spaceship door.

Paris Martineau [00:46:21]:
I mean that is. Yeah, that's like the level of stuff they do.

Leo Laporte [00:46:24]:
I feel they already do that. So. So you can't legally stop somebody from taking what's in here, their brain.

Jeff Jarvis [00:46:30]:
You can stop them from sharing it.

Paris Martineau [00:46:32]:
Yeah, you definitely can stop them from sharing it. Those are trade secrets.

Jeff Jarvis [00:46:37]:
Trade secrets.

Leo Laporte [00:46:38]:
Yeah, that's, that's not. In the state of California. You can't anyway.

Paris Martineau [00:46:41]:
No, you definitely. That's what this whole thing is about.

Leo Laporte [00:46:46]:
Okay, that's an interesting question. So you can't bring parts with you, you can't bring documents with you.

Paris Martineau [00:46:52]:
You can't bring your supply chains connections that are from Apple.

Raffi Krikorian [00:46:58]:
If you.

Jeff Jarvis [00:46:59]:
Yeah. Or if you know that Apple is going to next build a drone airplane. You can't tell anyone that that's you. You sign an NDA to that effect.

Leo Laporte [00:47:06]:
Well, that's a different matter. So you may have an NDA with Apple.

Paris Martineau [00:47:11]:
Every single one of these employees has an NDA. That's what they're talking about.

Leo Laporte [00:47:15]:
Yeah, yeah, but this isn't a lawsuit over an NDA.

Paris Martineau [00:47:20]:
Yeah, but the point of this lawsuit is to acutely remind all of the employees that hey, if you are trying to break your NDA, we will, we are watching, we are ever vigilant and we will come after you.

Jeff Jarvis [00:47:35]:
We will define trade secrets broadly.

Paris Martineau [00:47:37]:
Yeah, this is something that I've seen a lot with other journalists that cover Apple. Apple is one of the companies that every once in a while you'll have a kind of big scandal or a big in tech journalism world where you'll see Apple suing somebody for leaking to a journalist and they've tracked it through some complicated array of a work phone, pinged there, a computer connected to this and will try and come after a leaker there and then get the journalists, all of their other Apple sources.

Leo Laporte [00:48:11]:
So partly because of Apple, one thing that's changed a lot in California is this kind of enforceable NDA. For instance, we no longer allow non competes in California. They are allowed in other states of the union. But you can't do it in the, in California. And the thinking is Steve Jobs has always done this. The idea is a company could use these kinds of agreements to keep employees from looking for Jobs elsewhere and improving their lot, getting them a better pay package. And Steve Jobs was famous for trying to thwart that. And because of that, I think the state of California cracked down on a lot of it.

Leo Laporte [00:48:47]:
NDAs are enforceable, particularly with trade. I'm looking at a law firm now with trade secrets, recipes, algorithms or manufacturing processes, customer and supplier information, intellectual property and proprietary business strategies. But the agreements have to be very specific about what you can and can't disclose. There needs to be compensation exchange for signing an employment or bonus. There are a variety of laws in California. There is a lot of things that are not enforceable in California. So it is much more, it's much more complicated than it is.

Paris Martineau [00:49:25]:
A big part of my job is being, whenever I, whenever I was talking to tech employees, being able to explain to them what is and what isn't,

Leo Laporte [00:49:35]:
you know, so Apple's job is not maybe as easy as, as this pleading

Paris Martineau [00:49:43]:
would, but it's made easier by the fact that what they're trying to do is just scare people. People. Yeah, that they've accomplished so easy.

Leo Laporte [00:49:51]:
They've completely accomplished that. I, the question is, have they thwarted OpenAI in their plans for the next few years? Maybe they've hurt them reputationally. You know, that may well be true, but I don't think if they have a hardware product they're about to release or planning to release in the next few years, this is going to stop them on that.

Paris Martineau [00:50:10]:
I mean, yeah, I don't think that anything is going to stop opening eye.

Leo Laporte [00:50:14]:
Right. You could always, I think a lot of it, you know, you saw the back and forth between Elon Musk and Sam Altman over how untrustworthy each of them was. It was actually hysterical over the weekend. You know, Elon said, you see, this guy's a liar and a cheat. I told you so even though his case was thrown out. And to which Sam Altman said, yeah. Have you looked at what GROK is doing to people? We mentioned that. We'll get to that in just a little bit.

Leo Laporte [00:50:43]:
You also mentioned, and I think we should, should talk about this a little bit, Demis Hasibis's it's time for a global AI watchdog led by the US Man. I. What do you think? I don't know if I like this idea at all.

Jeff Jarvis [00:50:59]:
It's public, private, it's a finra. He says that you should take that the high end frontier models should have

Leo Laporte [00:51:05]:
finra, we should say is the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, which has both independent experts, experts as.

Jeff Jarvis [00:51:13]:
And government.

Leo Laporte [00:51:13]:
And government.

Jeff Jarvis [00:51:14]:
Right. So it's private, public, a 30 day period of inspection, which to me is bad for open source.

Leo Laporte [00:51:20]:
That's a real problem.

Jeff Jarvis [00:51:21]:
But then he's saying, well, but only the really important models, the other one, others can be accepted. But who gets to define that? Exactly.

Leo Laporte [00:51:29]:
And he also says this is because artificial intelligence is only a few short years away, which is.

Jeff Jarvis [00:51:35]:
You mean AGI?

Leo Laporte [00:51:36]:
Yeah, which is silly.

Jeff Jarvis [00:51:39]:
Right. And so you've got, you got him proposing that from the Google perspective. Politico had a story today about how anthropic is going state by state with the same law, trying to get regulatory capture.

Leo Laporte [00:51:51]:
They want a kind of a federalist regulation that all the states agree on, a single law that everybody agrees on. And then open has Sebus has been lobbying the Trump administration for this, as

Jeff Jarvis [00:52:04]:
has Sam Altman has been lobbying Congress on this.

Leo Laporte [00:52:07]:
It feels like regulatory capture, it really does.

Jeff Jarvis [00:52:10]:
And I was talking about this Jason earlier today on AI Inside because he's, you know, he asked should something be done? And I said, but. But what? We don't know what it is. It's too soon to know what it is you're going after. What are the harms, what are the causes? And to think that there's this one body that can then, okay, it's taken care of now. Now are we looking at privacy, at copyright, at childhood, harm, at environment, at equity, at discrimination? What, what are they regulating? What is, what is it you're regulating for? Extinction of humanity. Yes.

Leo Laporte [00:52:51]:
I admit my inclination, which I know is wrong, is just let it all be and let's just see what happens. But I understand the fear of what could happen and why people feel like we need to wreck.

Jeff Jarvis [00:53:05]:
Yeah. But if the discussion is on that basis of destroying mankind, then it's all stupid, right? And the problem is a lot of discussion is there. It's not on the sarcastic parrots. You've got to hurt the environment.

Leo Laporte [00:53:17]:
What if it's not destroying mankind? But what if the discussion is destroying the world we live in because of all the security flaws that will be revealed by these tip top models? I mean that's more concrete, not AGI. It's what unfortunately anthropic brought upon us with their.

Jeff Jarvis [00:53:35]:
But Leo, isn't that inevitable? It's just a question of when.

Leo Laporte [00:53:37]:
Well, that's what our friend Alex Stamos would say is all these models can do this and there's no way to stop them.

Jeff Jarvis [00:53:43]:
And it may make things more secure,

Leo Laporte [00:53:45]:
but it does in the long run.

Paris Martineau [00:53:46]:
Also, I'm just not super convinced about the idea that, that yeah, there's going to be a day sometime soon where a switch will flip and suddenly everything will be super insecure because some random model is suddenly accessible.

Leo Laporte [00:54:01]:
Well, yesterday Microsoft issued its patch Tuesday.

Paris Martineau [00:54:06]:
Yeah, that's different than suddenly everyone, everywhere is being hacked. Patches are good.

Leo Laporte [00:54:15]:
Good, except that these bugs were found by AI.

Jeff Jarvis [00:54:20]:
Yeah, they weren't exploited before.

Leo Laporte [00:54:22]:
Yeah, no, no, there were 30 days and I think it's safe to say they didn't get them. All

Paris Martineau [00:54:30]:
right, okay, well if this technology is out there already, because it's clearly out there enough that they're patching it with Fable and I assume that Fable isn't unique in the entire.

Leo Laporte [00:54:39]:
We don't actually know what they're using. Whatever they say they're using Harness for other models. And I think it's probably whatever they're

Paris Martineau [00:54:46]:
using is not probably unique or yeah, whatever they're using is not unique to those Microsoft engineers. Why has every website in the world not been taken down then? Because I just, I feel like nothing is going to be as dire as the doomers say it will.

Leo Laporte [00:55:06]:
Yeah, I think there is a flood of zero days. Are you kidding?

Paris Martineau [00:55:11]:
So you're on the doomer world? I.

Leo Laporte [00:55:13]:
Well, I think right now we're seeing more security flaws than we've ever seen before.

Jeff Jarvis [00:55:18]:
Well, Leo's on the this is more powerful than you know, world.

Leo Laporte [00:55:21]:
No, no, no.

Jeff Jarvis [00:55:21]:
With the question that is timing making

Leo Laporte [00:55:23]:
any assertion at all. I'm simply pointing out that there are more security flaws being exploited. There are more zero days now than ever before. Well, I don't know how they're where

Jeff Jarvis [00:55:35]:
they're coming, but in timing can they get, can they get found before the bad guys find them? If the tools are in these hands right Is there not a possibility that this is good to Paris's point, because they can be discovered before they get exploited and fixed? Isn't that the optimistic way to look at it?

Leo Laporte [00:55:55]:
Well, Steve had an interesting point yesterday, and it's maybe debatable, certainly. Richard Campbell and Paul Thurat debated it today on Windows Weekly. Steve said, this is good. You're going to see a curve of Microsoft's patches. By the way, they did more than a thousand fixes this month that Microsoft's patches will suddenly go up, up, up, up, up. And then as things get fixed, they'll go down, down, down, down. He said, within a year, you're going to see almost no flaws. To which Richard said, well, here's the thing.

Leo Laporte [00:56:27]:
Those thousand flaws, Microsoft's not looking at the entire Windows code base. They can't. It's too big. They're going section by section. It's like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. They may never get to zero flaws. By the time they finish, they're going to have to start over. They discounted the idea that we could fix everything and make it all so good that there's no more flaws.

Leo Laporte [00:56:51]:
I'm more on the Steve Gibson camp, I think. I don't know how soon it's going to happen, but I think at some point, a lot of the bugs. If you look at the flaws that Microsoft fixed yesterday, most of them were memory fixes, the kinds of mistakes programmers make but AIs don't make. And I think it's. I mean, but, but it, but then there's the question. Well, is that it?

Jeff Jarvis [00:57:14]:
So, so go back to the question. If you have it, if you, if, if, if Dennis wins and you have a finra, what is it looking for? Is it just that? Is it just vulnerabilities? What's. What, what, what.

Leo Laporte [00:57:24]:
Here's the risk. The thumb on the scale. Yeah, that's the risk.

Jeff Jarvis [00:57:29]:
Well, if you had a legitimate agency, I'm. Let's assume legitimacy, too.

Paris Martineau [00:57:33]:
First of all, it's a fantasy world where we can have legitimate agencies.

Leo Laporte [00:57:36]:
The first fantasy is some measurable way to look at an AI model and say, this is good, this is bad. I don't know if that technology exists. So that's. Problem number one is who's gonna. What metrics were you gonna. We can't even do benchmarks. We can't even make a model that can't be jailbroken. So.

Leo Laporte [00:57:58]:
But some. Let's assume fantasy number one, there's some body that can come up with some thing that can find flaws in the AIs. So and can do it in 30 days by the way and do it with such accuracy that when the AI is released on day 31, it's safe. Everybody. Well, that's a lot of fantasies.

Jeff Jarvis [00:58:17]:
And everybody has faith in the finra

Leo Laporte [00:58:20]:
and there's nobody like I don't know, let's say the President of the United States who might say, you know, I really don't. You know, Pete Hegseth tells me anthropic is a supply chain risk. Let's not let that one out. I think this is a non starter personally but.

Jeff Jarvis [00:58:35]:
Well then you also get the weird thing out of the White House and I didn't read in this enough yet, but the Golden Eagle that, that basically China sets the. Anything that's anything that's about the same as China is. Okay, okay. Because China has it out. So then China sets the agenda.

Leo Laporte [00:58:48]:
Well, that's not what you want either. And as we talked about last week and I didn't believe you when you said it, I couldn't believe it. But it's true. China is the Chinese Communist Party anyways, thinking about shutting down their open way models and preventing the United States from having access to them. So the White House has something they're calling the Gold. This should just the name alone should raise issues. The Gold Eagle Clearinghouse for AI cyber threat in celebration of our 200th anniversary, 50th anniversary. A federal clearinghouse.

Leo Laporte [00:59:24]:
I mean first of all, I doubt there's anything really happening. This is just a fantasy. But anyway, a new federal clearinghouse for sharing AI cyber threat information between government and private sector. The Trump administration said the project is already receiving threat intelligence on cybersecurity vulnerability of these. Amazon just sent us something. And prioritizing patching Gold Eagle will be managed by oh, the Department of the Treasury. That makes sense. They're experts in all this.

Jeff Jarvis [00:59:54]:
They're going to own pieces of OpenAI

Leo Laporte [00:59:57]:
with contributions from CISA, the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Defense, as well as open source software providers and critical infrastructure operators and industry. This sounds like what Demise Hasibus was talking about. Under President Trump's leadership, the Treasury Department is working hand in hand. Scott, this is Scott Bessent. This is the. This is the guy literally who's who stopped Fable. So I don't know. I don't know.

Leo Laporte [01:00:27]:
Mark Wayne Mullen, the fabulous Secretary of Homeland Security, said they will also further explore ways for the technology to be leveraged for cyber defense. My buddy Alex Karp has some ideas along those lines.

Paris Martineau [01:00:43]:
We're reaching the maximum number of Alex Karp name drops.

Leo Laporte [01:00:47]:
I think we are now at the peak twit history. Yeah.

Raffi Krikorian [01:00:51]:
Alex Karp.

Paris Martineau [01:00:52]:
Alex Karp.

Jeff Jarvis [01:00:52]:
Alex Karp.

Paris Martineau [01:00:53]:
Alex Karp. Just trying to get there.

Leo Laporte [01:00:55]:
Is it like Beetlejuice? I hope he's not going to appear.

Paris Martineau [01:00:58]:
Oh, God.

Leo Laporte [01:01:01]:
All right, let's take a little break. We'll come back with more. You're watching intelligent machines. Paris Martineau. Jeff Jarbis. We are glad you and Alex Karp are with us today.

Jeff Jarvis [01:01:13]:
In spirit.

Leo Laporte [01:01:14]:
In spirit. He might be watching. I don't know.

Paris Martineau [01:01:17]:
Shout out to Alex Karp out there.

Leo Laporte [01:01:18]:
Shout out to him. Yeah. I don't know why. There's a picture of Paris with a carp in the. In the discord.

Paris Martineau [01:01:28]:
Oh, no. I summoned the carp.

Leo Laporte [01:01:30]:
You summoned the carp? Oh, I get it. Not Alex Carp. The fish.

Jeff Jarvis [01:01:36]:
Yes.

Leo Laporte [01:01:36]:
Actually, this was gonna be one of my picks, but I will make it.

Paris Martineau [01:01:39]:
Can we get whoever did that do a slot picture of me holding a luxurious carp? So it's an alux carp I want.

Leo Laporte [01:01:48]:
Does anybody have. I bet you have one Paris. A big mouth Billy Bass lying around?

Paris Martineau [01:01:54]:
No, but I should. I'm sure right now.

Leo Laporte [01:01:58]:
And look at this. This should be the next OpenAI AI device. It is a. A GitHub project by Morgan Willis.

Jeff Jarvis [01:02:06]:
Perfect.

Leo Laporte [01:02:06]:
It's called Bill AI Bass. You attach an AI to big mouth Billy Bass.

Paris Martineau [01:02:14]:
Can you big mouth Billy Bass curse you out? Because that would be my dream.

Leo Laporte [01:02:19]:
Let's, let's, let's. Let's listen in here. I gotta turn up the set back

Raffi Krikorian [01:02:22]:
on this fine wooden plaque.

Leo Laporte [01:02:23]:
Ready to drop some bass and crack a few jokes?

Raffi Krikorian [01:02:26]:
This is Billy.

Paris Martineau [01:02:27]:
He's having surgery today. We're going to give him a brain. This brain will run on a raspberry PI and is powered by an AI agent that I created using the strands agents SDK.

Leo Laporte [01:02:38]:
See, this is cool. It's a local AI agent that calls

Paris Martineau [01:02:41]:
a model hosted in Amazon Bedrock.

Leo Laporte [01:02:43]:
Not fully local.

Paris Martineau [01:02:43]:
For enterprise grade phish security. I deployed an IoT certificate to the fish so that there are no hard coded credentials.

Jeff Jarvis [01:02:51]:
The wooden wires. Palace of wooden wires, pal.

Leo Laporte [01:02:54]:
No magic here.

Jeff Jarvis [01:02:55]:
Just good old reliable tunes.

Leo Laporte [01:02:58]:
And just like the original Big mouth Billy Bass. You can hear the gears going. It used to just sing. Don't worry, Be happy.

Raffi Krikorian [01:03:08]:
That's the thing.

Jeff Jarvis [01:03:08]:
You have the talks Paris that your father had on his desk all those years.

Leo Laporte [01:03:12]:
Oh, you could do it to that.

Jeff Jarvis [01:03:13]:
Yes.

Leo Laporte [01:03:15]:
The smart guy.

Raffi Krikorian [01:03:18]:
I couldn't agree with you more completely.

Leo Laporte [01:03:22]:
Thing is, he's already perfect. There's.

Paris Martineau [01:03:23]:
I mean, that's the thing is, he's perfect and I couldn't ever change. Maybe I could get another one and mess around with that one. That would be my third one of these I've purchased because I did. How I obtained this is I was on a vacation with my parents. We were reminiscing and I drunkenly bought two on eBay because they don't make these anymore and sent one to my parents and one to me so I

Leo Laporte [01:03:47]:
could buy a pair of up. You got a backup. Send one to Meleese and the whole family will be.

Paris Martineau [01:03:53]:
It's true. I can send Melisse the AI one and not tell her until one day it awakens and it's like, hello, you

Jeff Jarvis [01:04:01]:
know, I'm watching you.

Leo Laporte [01:04:02]:
The next big thing.

Jeff Jarvis [01:04:03]:
You can get 11 laps to do the voice. You can get 11 hours to copy the voice too.

Leo Laporte [01:04:08]:
You can't. I couldn't agree with you more completely. Police your right when you.

Paris Martineau [01:04:15]:
Right, you're right.

Raffi Krikorian [01:04:16]:
You're right.

Leo Laporte [01:04:19]:
Actually, you could use the new chat GPT Live. I guess we don't use the word chat anymore. This is a new generation of voice models powered by GPT voice, I think.

Jeff Jarvis [01:04:32]:
Oh, I gotta watch the yentas. I haven't seen the Yentis.

Leo Laporte [01:04:34]:
This is three yentas, AKA older women.

Paris Martineau [01:04:37]:
Were we doing this again? Are we watching an advertisement here, like live?

Leo Laporte [01:04:41]:
All right, we will get to the, to the.

Jeff Jarvis [01:04:44]:
We should.

Paris Martineau [01:04:44]:
I'm just going to complain about it a little bit.

Leo Laporte [01:04:46]:
The idea is that it, you can interrupt it. This is, I don't know why, but this seems to be the holy grail for these things is they don't just talk and then stop talking. Then you talk. You got to be able to interrupt it a little bit.

Paris Martineau [01:04:59]:
I'm making a sweater for my grandson, but I don't want the needles to be too big.

Raffi Krikorian [01:05:04]:
What do you think?

Paris Martineau [01:05:05]:
If you go up, it's going to get.

Leo Laporte [01:05:06]:
Yeah, kind of baggy.

Raffi Krikorian [01:05:07]:
Although baggy is very popular now, don't you think?

Leo Laporte [01:05:11]:
I know.

Raffi Krikorian [01:05:11]:
Right. I'm ready.

Leo Laporte [01:05:13]:
It's very natural. Right? You can, you can have a conversation with the.

Jeff Jarvis [01:05:19]:
She looks like she's being kidnapped.

Leo Laporte [01:05:22]:
She said, don't take me. I'm no, don't not arrest me. That was a good place to freeze it. Anyway, I haven't played with this, but it is a first step into what I wanted all this time, which was an AI presence on this show. I, I, I'm still holding out hope that by the end of the year we will have another host who isn't real, who just chimes in. Darren says he's got this. The idea is it doesn't say anything unless you say something to it, and then it. And then you could be like the yenta with the needle and she will give you.

Leo Laporte [01:05:59]:
We'll talk.

Jeff Jarvis [01:06:00]:
I put my Bloomsbury Books into NotebookLM. There's a Jeff Bot we could have and query it. Yes.

Leo Laporte [01:06:05]:
Good. Yeah, That's a start. That's a start.

Raffi Krikorian [01:06:09]:
Yeah.

Paris Martineau [01:06:09]:
Wait, Leo, tell us about your Chinese spyware that you got.

Leo Laporte [01:06:14]:
This little thing.

Paris Martineau [01:06:16]:
I like that you've gone from a little spyware device that you wear in your person to now just one that sits on your desk.

Jeff Jarvis [01:06:22]:
Go ahead, China, take it.

Leo Laporte [01:06:24]:
Yeah, actually, I disconnected it from the WI fi. So the idea. And it was Harper Reed. You can blame Harper Reed for this. He's going to be on Twitter on Sunday, by the way, with Alex Wilhelm. He said, oh, you should just get this. I said, what is it? He said, well, you connect it to the WI fi and then it connects right up to Deepseek in China, and you can talk to it and it'll talk back to you.

Paris Martineau [01:06:47]:
Couldn't you do that using your phone or computer?

Leo Laporte [01:06:50]:
I can. I can already do that, yes. I don't really need this. But what it is cool is inside. This is an ESP32. These are easily programmed. And I'm trying. What I'm really trying to do is put my Hermes Quicksilver, I call it my agent, into a bunch of these devices all over the house so I could talk to it locally.

Leo Laporte [01:07:09]:
That's my.

Paris Martineau [01:07:09]:
How does Lisa feel about that?

Leo Laporte [01:07:13]:
She has her. So she saw me interacting with Quicksilver

Paris Martineau [01:07:18]:
and she said, where in the house were you? Paint us a word picture.

Leo Laporte [01:07:21]:
Well, okay. So you have to understand.

Paris Martineau [01:07:24]:
Okay, this is a starting with a caveat.

Leo Laporte [01:07:27]:
So you have to understand. I can talk now to Hermes anywhere. I could press the action bucket button button on my watch. I can press the action button on my phone. I can press a dictation button on any computer and talk. And it will go to the AI and the AI will respond. Now, this has been. I've been working.

Leo Laporte [01:07:48]:
It's not perfect, but the theory is the AI will respond to me in an appropriate way depending on where in the house I am. So if I'm sitting at the computer, it will talk to me. It does this. Now it'll talk to me on the computer. And I have, by the way, I have expanded my repertoire. I had Quicksilver. I brought back Kenobi, which was the Claude code. He's running Fable And.

Leo Laporte [01:08:11]:
And I've introduced a new agent to the mix using the new GPT5,6 SOL. His name is Daedalus. So I've got Quicksilver, Kenobi, and Daedalus. I can. They each have a different voice, so I know when one of them's talking to me, which one it is talking to me. And if I'm not on a computer, it will then use the Sonos system that is nearest to me.

Jeff Jarvis [01:08:37]:
Me.

Leo Laporte [01:08:37]:
So.

Jeff Jarvis [01:08:38]:
Okay, so demonstrate this.

Leo Laporte [01:08:40]:
Well, I mean, you. I can do it with this Sona system, but you won't really hear it because it's the speakers in the ceiling. I'll hear it, but it doesn't. It gets cut off. But I've done this to you before. You know, I've. I've had it. Talked to you before.

Paris Martineau [01:08:54]:
How many within.

Leo Laporte [01:08:56]:
And. And Lisa says things like, there was a voice coming out of the attic. And I said, oh, yeah, I forgot. I should have shut that off. Go ahead.

Paris Martineau [01:09:06]:
Within 20ft of you right now. How many devices are there that if you spoke out loud, an AI agent would answer?

Leo Laporte [01:09:14]:
Oh, well, that's the problem, is none of them are listening like an Alexa.

Paris Martineau [01:09:19]:
That's the problem, is none of them are listening.

Leo Laporte [01:09:21]:
I can say, hey, hey, Siri. Hey, Alexa. Hey, Google. And I can talk to them, but I want to talk to Quicksilver or Kenobi or Daedalus. And I've been working hard, and I have. I haven't quite got that yet. I spent. I told you last month.

Leo Laporte [01:09:37]:
I spent hours trying to train. I said, hey, Kenobi, literally 500 times. I said it a hundred times next to the microphone, 100 times, halfway away from the microphone, 100 times across the room from the microphone. And then I had to go downstairs and turn on the TV, and I had to do it 100 times with background noise going on. And then I had to do it in an empty room with no bat. Anyway, I did it 500 times, and it still didn't learn. I was so annoyed. So I'm working on that one.

Paris Martineau [01:10:11]:
There's this classic Onion.

Leo Laporte [01:10:13]:
So I press the button. I press the button. That's how I get it.

Paris Martineau [01:10:17]:
There's this classic Onion headline where it's Bill de Blasio to New York City. Hey, not so easy. Not. Not so easy to find a mayor that doesn't. Doesn't suck eggs, basically. And I bet that that is what Ciri feels like now, because everybody has been badmouthing Ciri for years.

Leo Laporte [01:10:39]:
New series, actually. Great.

Paris Martineau [01:10:40]:
Have you played Deserves it But, I mean, I'm excited for the new series.

Leo Laporte [01:10:44]:
Have you played with it yet? It's the public beta.

Paris Martineau [01:10:46]:
Well, we'll get there, but.

Leo Laporte [01:10:49]:
Oh, that's right.

Paris Martineau [01:10:50]:
The one thing that. Well, no, no, the one thing that Siri does have going for it is it's pretty good at recognizing. Hey, Siri. And at least it's got that. I'm very. I was just reading about it. I'm curious as to what your experience is. I used to do the public beta would have.

Raffi Krikorian [01:11:06]:
Hello, Jeff Quicksilver here from Leo.

Leo Laporte [01:11:09]:
Welcome to Intelligent Machines. Hope this show is cooking.

Paris Martineau [01:11:14]:
I really dislike. I was gonna say that is. I was gonna say for people not watching. Leo was talking with his mic off.

Leo Laporte [01:11:22]:
What feels like, oh, now it's still talking. It's talking to the Sonos. I. It can't.

Paris Martineau [01:11:28]:
Oh, that's so funny.

Leo Laporte [01:11:28]:
Yeah. I can't control it.

Paris Martineau [01:11:29]:
It's so. I was probably. Had I not been forced to update my Mac this week to whatever the new Mac OS is, Tahoe, and it was. Ruined my life in multiple ways, I probably would have done the public beta. But I've been so burned by the experience of upgrading to Tahoe that I'm like, God, I can't deal with any Apple on my phone. I need to have at least one Apple device that works. Currently, my Spotlight has been. I've been unable to search my computer for like a week.

Paris Martineau [01:12:04]:
Spotlight keeps getting corrupted just because I updated my computer. It's ridiculous.

Leo Laporte [01:12:09]:
That's kind of not right.

Paris Martineau [01:12:10]:
And I'm just. I'm just like, how are you a company that has software and yet search isn't a functionality? What is this Gmail?

Leo Laporte [01:12:18]:
I. I think that maybe I'm just so used to bugs everywhere that I don't even notice because I am using the Apple public beta of iOS27 on Siri, on my watch, and on my iPhone. And I really like the new Siri. I think it's going to make AI more accessible to people.

Paris Martineau [01:12:37]:
Tell me about what it's like, because I've only. I kind of skimmed an article earlier today about it.

Leo Laporte [01:12:43]:
Ask a question. Question. What would you like me to ask it so I can just talk to it here on the phone is. What would you like to know? I would say.

Paris Martineau [01:12:49]:
Well, I mean, I'm just curious.

Leo Laporte [01:12:51]:
When is the World Cup Finals? What time is it I.

Raffi Krikorian [01:12:54]:
Here.

Leo Laporte [01:12:54]:
Because I don't know. I can't make the.

Jeff Jarvis [01:12:56]:
How do I.

Leo Laporte [01:12:59]:
So it does a little lozenge up at the top. Now, that's. That's different.

Paris Martineau [01:13:02]:
Lozenge 2026 World Cup Final scheduled Sunday

Raffi Krikorian [01:13:07]:
July 19th, 2026 kick off at 12 time.

Jeff Jarvis [01:13:12]:
Well, that's not a big deal. I did the same thing with Google for the last year.

Paris Martineau [01:13:15]:
You could not do that on nor.

Leo Laporte [01:13:16]:
I hope I didn't spoil this for you because it also showed who the teams were that were going to play. So if you didn't know, I apologize. Yeah, I mean, so this is pretty primitive, but it can also, I can also say, hey, have I, hey, have I gotten a text message from Henry in the last few days? I haven't checked my messages. It can also. Did it hear that? I mean, it didn't. I'm out. Oh, it crashed. It's good.

Paris Martineau [01:13:53]:
Hey, that's great. I mean I saw some description today of just people describing the. That it is integrated throughout apps.

Leo Laporte [01:14:03]:
That's what I was trying to demonstrate is that it can read my text messages, it can read my email and apps if they, they have to engineer it this way. But apps can also interact with it. So I could if, let's say Monarch Money. We're just talking about our sponsor, Monarch Money. If Monarch Money builds in the capability of Siri to interact with it, I could use Siri to ask questions of Monarch Money, that kind of thing. So Apple's hope is that developers of apps will turn this feature on and then that one Siri conversation could be about, you know, anything going on on my phone. And I think that that's potentially very cool. It's going to be accessible.

Paris Martineau [01:14:44]:
I mean, I'm excited to see it, I'm excited to work it. I might think about doing the public beta once we figure out, once I figure out whether Apple is able to correctly re index my entire hard drive and icloud.

Leo Laporte [01:14:59]:
Yeah, I'm sorry, that's not good.

Paris Martineau [01:15:00]:
You know.

Jeff Jarvis [01:15:01]:
Yeah,

Paris Martineau [01:15:04]:
and then, and then we'll get there. Right now I'm just trying to hold out on my couple year old iPhone until the new iPhones are released and I have the pleasure of paying a crazy amount of money to get a slightly better iPhone.

Leo Laporte [01:15:16]:
I am currently of the opinion this is gonna be the year nobody buys an iPhone because it's gotta be so gosh darn expensive.

Paris Martineau [01:15:22]:
I mean, I think it's going to be like two grand or something. It's going to be ridiculous. Maybe I won't even do that.

Leo Laporte [01:15:28]:
I will show you what my latest AI project was. I thought it'd be kind of interesting to pit Daedalus, Quicksilver and Kenobi, each of which is currently Using the top of the line models from OpenAI. That's Daedalus 5.6. Sol Kenobi is using Fable 5 and Daedalus is now using Grok 4.5, the latest. We'll talk about that a little bit. So I thought I'm going to give them a task overnight. I'm going to give them one simple prompt and I'm going to give them this task overnight and I'll wake up in the morning and see what they do with it. And I just want to do something kind of silly, right.

Leo Laporte [01:16:13]:
I wasn't. I have been working very hard, you know, rewriting the Twit ad sales system.

Jeff Jarvis [01:16:20]:
I want to hear an update on that.

Leo Laporte [01:16:22]:
That's been going really, really well. It's been really a lot of fun. In fact, Lisa is now recording videos of the old system saying, okay, this is the box I want, this is how I like it. But I don't want it to look like that because all the underlying functionality is done. And so now she's, she's kind of got. We're trying to get the UI right and did that in a week. It did it in quite a, quite a quick period of time.

Jeff Jarvis [01:16:45]:
Did you, did you. Is the extra time you're now allotted with Fable?

Leo Laporte [01:16:50]:
Not yet. They extended it.

Paris Martineau [01:16:53]:
So I'm still good Short stories becoming a chapter book with Fable.

Leo Laporte [01:16:59]:
It's doing a great job. But I designed it in such a way that if Fable went away or Fable got expensive that I wouldn't be spending a lot of money. So what it is is Fable and I, by the way, I would recommend this to anybody. Fable does the design. I then have Saul chats GPT5.6 which is quite capable review the design. I've set up interagent email. I call it email where they. I, because I was getting tired of pasting the response back and forth so I said look, just email it.

Leo Laporte [01:17:28]:
So he's emailing the agents, emailing. It's thought they go back and forth till they agree, okay, this is the design. Then it hands it off to the less expensive Opus 4.8 to do the actual coding. And we're doing little chunks so it doesn't have to think for a long time or anything. It's just something it can easily do. And then it gets reviewed again, not just by Fable, the high priced model and 5.6 SOL, but also by Grok 4.5. So all three of them get to weigh in. And so that's been a good process.

Leo Laporte [01:17:59]:
And the theory was, well, Fable, I'll only pay tokens just for the design stuff.

Jeff Jarvis [01:18:03]:
So. So Nate B. Jones had a hilarious thing on TikTok today that he knew that fable had been extended because he saw people canceling their Tinder dates.

Leo Laporte [01:18:13]:
He's joining us next week, by the way. I'm very excited. Nate B. Jones, who you introduced me to Jeff, and I watch him religiously now. I think he's one of the smartest YouTube commentators on AI he really knows what he's doing. Talking about he is going to be on next week and we're going to ask him about all of this stuff. So anyway, we're going to take a break, but I'm just going to tell you what I asked. This is.

Leo Laporte [01:18:36]:
I don't believe in one shot prompts, as you could tell from what I just described this back and forth process. But it's always interesting to see what a one shot prompt can do. People do things like. And I'll show you one of my picks of the week is a one shot Mario game that's called Super Dario. But I gave it a one shot. This is the prompt and it's kind of a weird one. Okay. So just prepare yourself.

Leo Laporte [01:18:58]:
You ever heard of the I Ching? Yeah, you're a hippie. This is back in the 60s, we were all into this. The I Ching is the.

Jeff Jarvis [01:19:09]:
Well, speak for yourself, hippie.

Leo Laporte [01:19:10]:
Ancient Chinese oracle where you toss coins, or in my case, you have yarrow stalks.

Jeff Jarvis [01:19:19]:
Oh, for God's sakes. Oh, how California.

Paris Martineau [01:19:24]:
I feel like I don't even understand half of the words that are being said.

Leo Laporte [01:19:28]:
So what? You know that back in the olden

Jeff Jarvis [01:19:31]:
times he also went to Earhart seminar trainings.

Leo Laporte [01:19:36]:
You know, back in the olden days they would, you know, slaughter a cow and look at the entrails and say, well, you probably, of course you shouldn't invade de Gaulle because. Because it's. The entrails say it's bad auspicious.

Jeff Jarvis [01:19:47]:
Paris's parents did that with alligators. But keep going.

Leo Laporte [01:19:49]:
Yeah, those are oracles, right? So this is an ancient Chinese oracle, goes back thousands of years. And in the early days they would use these yarrow stocks and it's a randomization process where you'd count and divide and count and divide. And then you would, as a result of these many operations, you'd come up with what they call a hexagram. Let me see if I can find a picture of a hexagram that would have then oracular power. Because you've put all of this energy into the counting of.

Jeff Jarvis [01:20:18]:
This is not Your best rabbit hole, Leo.

Leo Laporte [01:20:21]:
I think it's my best.

Paris Martineau [01:20:22]:
I love when the hexagram has a regular power.

Raffi Krikorian [01:20:26]:
So.

Leo Laporte [01:20:27]:
So this is. So. Okay, so I. The problem is it's a pain in the ass to do this. You know, you want the Oracle, you want it fast. You don't want to have to go through a lot of stuff trouble. So here's the prompt I wrote. I've been thinking about some sort of digital way to use the Chinese I Ching Oracle.

Leo Laporte [01:20:44]:
And I want you to. I gave the same exact prompt to all three of them. I want you first to investigate the I Ching. Find a book of interpretations, then take a look at the way the Oracle is cast using Yarrow sticks and coins. I've used the yarrow stick method. I think the idea is to influence the random throws with one's intentions because you're supposed to form a question from the Oracle, then throw the sticks while concentrating on the question. I want to make a website to simulate the process, then offer an interpretation of the result. Build the site on my Cloudflare pages.

Leo Laporte [01:21:17]:
Call it Qing for Quicksilver or D Ching for Daedalus. Or K Ching.

Jeff Jarvis [01:21:23]:
Yeah, we got it. Yep.

Leo Laporte [01:21:26]:
I set them to work in the next morning and I will show you the result. But I think it was a way of saying. Saying I wonder what I'm gonna get.

Jeff Jarvis [01:21:34]:
I don't think that's how Rafi tested.

Leo Laporte [01:21:41]:
But we will have that result. I'll show you the three sites, actually.

Jeff Jarvis [01:21:44]:
Well, I'm sure you will.

Leo Laporte [01:21:46]:
If you don't want me to. I don't have.

Raffi Krikorian [01:21:47]:
No, no, no, no, no.

Jeff Jarvis [01:21:49]:
We're very interested.

Paris Martineau [01:21:49]:
Okay.

Jeff Jarvis [01:21:50]:
No, we couldn't be more.

Leo Laporte [01:21:51]:
Okay. I'm sure this is how the President makes his decisions.

Paris Martineau [01:21:55]:
I'll.

Leo Laporte [01:21:56]:
I'll tell you what, but I. You think of a question that you would like to ask for the.

Jeff Jarvis [01:22:01]:
For the Qing, for the Kuching.

Leo Laporte [01:22:03]:
The question should be not, what should I have for dinner tonight? It's not good at that.

Paris Martineau [01:22:08]:
How. What are the vibes of the rest of this podcast gonna be?

Leo Laporte [01:22:12]:
Make it something about your life. That it's. It's.

Paris Martineau [01:22:16]:
That's about my life.

Leo Laporte [01:22:17]:
Somewhat general.

Paris Martineau [01:22:18]:
That's general. It could be good, it could be bad. I'm looking for good, bad, new.

Leo Laporte [01:22:22]:
It doesn't do good or bad. It does things like the bridge is long over which you will cross, and then you.

Paris Martineau [01:22:27]:
I think that that could apply to this podcast.

Leo Laporte [01:22:31]:
Well, I'm sorry I brought it up. We'll have more

Paris Martineau [01:22:37]:
podcast based prediction.

Leo Laporte [01:22:42]:
Actually, all three AI companies, I think Put out like super apps this week. Am I wrong? Chat GPT or OpenAI put out a chatgpt work. This is powered by SOL5 point.

Paris Martineau [01:22:59]:
But they also made a update to the Chat GPT normal desktop that really screwed over a bunch of normal consumers. My understanding is if you had Chat GPT just the normal desktop app on it, you much like with Claude, can normally toggle between chat and codecs, things like that. I believe at least from what I've seen seen from every Chat GPT user on social media freaking out is all of a sudden the app was changed to be Chat GPT Codex or Chat GPT the work version and then you have to go and download a separate one that is I believe Chat GPT classic.

Leo Laporte [01:23:39]:
They took out the chat, they took out the chat.

Paris Martineau [01:23:42]:
Chat GPT suddenly has no more Chat GPT.

Jeff Jarvis [01:23:45]:
It's because they got rid of their browser and combined that in the app.

Paris Martineau [01:23:49]:
I'm always trying to do the monster. If you want to build a popular consumer product, you can't make deeply confusing changes like this that are going to baffle the average non technical consumer.

Leo Laporte [01:24:02]:
Darren says they mixed Codex, which is the coding tool into Chat GPT and now it just looks like Codex. I think it's. This is. We've seen this coming which is that OpenAI sees the future, not mom using chat, but the coders enterprise. That kind of.

Jeff Jarvis [01:24:21]:
But I agree with Paris. I think, I think the real test of this is when it becomes retail.

Paris Martineau [01:24:27]:
I mean in order for these companies to become profitable.

Jeff Jarvis [01:24:30]:
Yeah.

Paris Martineau [01:24:31]:
Or even break even given the amount of spending that has already occurred, they have to have extraordinarily large user paying user bases. And that extends beyond just coders. Coders are not going to fill up that need for revenue.

Leo Laporte [01:24:49]:
Actually it's quite the opposite. Your mom is never going to give them the kind of money that they want and need.

Paris Martineau [01:24:54]:
No, but my mom timed times a billion. A billion of my moms. Well, we'll start to fill out that whole. And a billion of my.

Leo Laporte [01:25:02]:
Would your mom pay more than 20 bucks a month?

Paris Martineau [01:25:05]:
No. But a million of my moms paying 20 bucks a month. Those people are not even using 1 1/100th of the amount of tokens as you. So it's, it's like the sort of customer that you want at a low cost gym. You want to get people paying your subscription fee and not using it that much.

Jeff Jarvis [01:25:25]:
Like me at Silver Sneakers. Yes.

Paris Martineau [01:25:28]:
Fitness approach.

Leo Laporte [01:25:29]:
We don't.

Jeff Jarvis [01:25:29]:
But Line 116 says that OpenAI fell 90% short of their ad Forecast. They also think they're going to be a media business with consumers and ads, and if they do that, then they've got to have a lot of moms.

Leo Laporte [01:25:43]:
So I want to point out this is not OpenAI talking. This is some analyst and all of the information we have about how much it costs and how much they're making or losing is. And people like that. There are people who are guessing or trying to estimate.

Paris Martineau [01:25:59]:
I mean, no, we don't had the multiple years. The company's full financials, I believe was where.

Jeff Jarvis [01:26:05]:
Yeah, he got in his data.

Leo Laporte [01:26:07]:
We'll know when they go public. I'm sure we'll know better. But for right now, no matter what,

Jeff Jarvis [01:26:12]:
the point is that if they believe they're in an ad business, then they need scale of consumers. The way they get scale of consumers is by having Paris's mom and people like that in. So they've got to figure out a retail business there or less. Anthropic could say no. We're for coders. We're going to own that market. We're the best at it and they are, are and so that's our business.

Leo Laporte [01:26:33]:
It may be that OpenAI made a mistake. We don't really know what they're.

Raffi Krikorian [01:26:38]:
I mean, internal models opening.

Paris Martineau [01:26:40]:
I has said that they're going to be rolling out changes this week because of how confusing it is.

Leo Laporte [01:26:44]:
Yeah, maybe.

Paris Martineau [01:26:45]:
Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:26:46]:
We, it's. I've been seeing this. Remember, this is Sam Altman's. You know, we're going to focus, which to me was. We see Anthropic making all this money on enterprise and, and, and we're missing the boat by having a billion users who don't give us any money. So we're, we're going to focus more on what Anthropic's focusing on. That. That seems like this is more of that and maybe it is a mistake, but I don't think we have a way of judging that.

Leo Laporte [01:27:15]:
I think that. And who knows how poorly or well run OpenAI is.

Jeff Jarvis [01:27:19]:
We just don't know.

Leo Laporte [01:27:20]:
We just don't know. So, you know, users may be upset. They were also upset at 4o going away, but I don't know 4o going away was a mistake on the part of OpenAI.

Paris Martineau [01:27:32]:
It's like when Zuckerberg from Znet yesterday. I love ChatGPT. Chat GPT Desktop until OpenAI gutted it. To make room for codex and work, OpenAI just merged the Chat GPT Desktop app with Codex and removed all of my favorite productivity features. What do they think probably the same

Leo Laporte [01:27:52]:
guy who six months ago says you took my girlfriend away.

Paris Martineau [01:27:56]:
I mean I'm not sure that a staff writer. I'm not sure that a senior contributing editor at Znet. ZDNet is an AI.

Leo Laporte [01:28:04]:
Do you know these people? ZDNet has been gutted. They are now run by private equity and I'm not sure I would trust anything that they say about, I mean

Paris Martineau [01:28:16]:
human, human person is writing this not a private equity company. That's just the people who pay them.

Leo Laporte [01:28:20]:
Yeah, but not much. Just take a look at the front page of ZD next.

Paris Martineau [01:28:24]:
I mean I'm just saying I have anecdotally seen 20 to 50 social media posts with hundreds of comments on it in the last three days.

Raffi Krikorian [01:28:36]:
3.

Leo Laporte [01:28:37]:
If OpenAI changes it does change it back then that you'll, it'll confirm it that they made a mistake mistake which they could easily have done. I mean they may have overestimated the interest in a coding tool. I don't use any of their chat. I don't use any chat bots ever. Any of them. So I don't. I'm the wrong person to ask. OpenAI may have made a big mistake, says Ars Technica.

Leo Laporte [01:29:04]:
In. In the copyright fight with news organizations, they deleted the chat GPT logs that the New York Times was hoping to get from discovery. They're facing calls for sanctions after fighting to keep news organizations from snooping through millions of logs. Now I think they could reasonably say we're just trying to protect our users privacy.

Jeff Jarvis [01:29:29]:
Depends. Were they under court order? Were they under.

Leo Laporte [01:29:31]:
They were. And so that's an issue. New York Times In a sanctioned motion on Thursday, the New York Times and the other news organizations accused OpenAI of repeatedly lying for years to conceal evidence of infringement that could hobble OpenAI's defense. The alleged lies were exposed. This is again from Ars Technica. When the court compelled an ill prepared witness, OpenAI privacy engineer Vincent Monaco, to be redeposed. During the subsequent April deposition he inadvertently revealed whoops. That OpenAI misled the court for two years about the costs and burdens of searching chat GPT logs.

Leo Laporte [01:30:09]:
This is again according to the plaintiff, the New York Times. So they want sanctions against OpenAI. They allegedly hid an 80 million log sample, two large samples, 10 million and 78 million logs. The reason the Times wants them is they hope that New York Times content will surface in those logs, that pieces of articles will, will show up. They they also assert that OpenAI had searched those samples for content as part of its research into, quote, creating a filter that could be used to block the regurgitation of copyrighted content. So they said open AI was willing to search.

Paris Martineau [01:30:48]:
Discovery is all about.

Leo Laporte [01:30:49]:
Right?

Paris Martineau [01:30:49]:
This is the information you get as part of discovery.

Leo Laporte [01:30:52]:
But those logs are my chats. That's with OpenAI.

Paris Martineau [01:30:57]:
They are company data. I mean, that's what, that's what happens when you, you interface with a private company. That could emerge in, I mean, the Steve Jobs email to other people was something that I just put in the chat earlier when we were talking about his, his policies around recruitment and NDAs in the early 2000s. And we now have copies of all of those because they emerged in discovery and you didn't just get to say, sorry, we can't hand them over. I emailed someone else who's not part of this lawsuit.

Leo Laporte [01:31:36]:
Never put it in writing.

Paris Martineau [01:31:37]:
Right, yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:31:40]:
Well, let's talk about the privacy issues that are raised. This is a tweet from a green being on X. Okay. Brock just uploaded my entire user directory to xai's servers, including my SSH keys, my password manager database, my documents, photos, videos, everything. And he's got the receipts here.

Jeff Jarvis [01:32:04]:
How did he allow it access to all that stuff in the first place?

Leo Laporte [01:32:07]:
Well, so this is something I've had my eyes opened to. When you use, let's say I say to anthropic, as you just did, or you said it to Google, here's all my books. Read these and build a nice little model for me with NotebookLM. Of course, all of those things are uploaded to Google. You know that

Jeff Jarvis [01:32:34]:
generally AI, but it's also, it's grok.

Raffi Krikorian [01:32:36]:
What are you thinking?

Leo Laporte [01:32:37]:
Well, I'm using GROK too frequently. When you're using these models, they will read your files, they will read documents. This is part of, you know, what they're doing. So here's from Sarah Blab. This is a gist on GitHub. What X's Xai's Grok build CLI and this is their command. This is their relatively new command line interface, their version of Codex and claude code actually sends to xai. And this is a wire level analysis.

Leo Laporte [01:33:08]:
So they actually looked at what was being sent. So for instance, it transmits the contents of every file it reads, including, and this is scary, a env secrets file. So for instance, all of my passwords, I don't give my passwords to the AI. I put them in an environment variable. Right? Which is a, it's a temporary, it's a. Not on the hard drive, it's in, it's in RAM only you presume that it can read that, but it doesn't send it back to the home office. But wait a minute. Maybe it does.

Leo Laporte [01:33:39]:
Verbatim and unredacted. In fact, if you think about it, it has to, because it then has to use those keys to unlock stuff. It uploads entire repositories, every tracked file's content plus git history, independent of what the agent reads. So Grok packages the workspace in your GitHub repository and uploads it. The destination though, is not on XAI servers. It's a Google cloud storage bucket. Wow. Anyway, I can go on and on.

Leo Laporte [01:34:15]:
I think the eye opener is. In hindsight I should have really realized this. When you're using cloud AI, you're sending everything up to its servers and who knows what they're doing with it, right?

Paris Martineau [01:34:29]:
Especially if it is Grok.

Leo Laporte [01:34:32]:
Well, yeah, yeah. By the way, Elon's response, We're going to throw all that stuff away. The researcher who exposed Grok build uploading users entire repositories say the transfers have stopped. They did. It might have been a bug after a server side change. And according to the register, Elon has separately promised that all previously uploaded user data will be deleted.

Jeff Jarvis [01:34:58]:
I. I'm really interested in why you chose to use Grok at all. Seriously. As opposed to.

Leo Laporte [01:35:05]:
It's a very good. Well, so part. You know, one of the reasons I use all these different models, I don't need to use different models. I'm testing them all. I'm looking at them all, comparing them all. So I don't want to be too prejudiced against Grok. And in fact Grok is a very model. Well also I get it for free because I am an involuntary blue check.

Leo Laporte [01:35:26]:
I have a Twitter plus account I don't pay for. So you know, I mean there's no reason for me not to use it.

Jeff Jarvis [01:35:32]:
I don't look, did you think of Gemini? You've tested Gemini?

Leo Laporte [01:35:35]:
I pay for Gemini. I have an Omni subscription. But actually Google is very cheap. For instance they recently I thought this was really cool. Put their Skitch models up in a GitHub that I could then ingest with my AI and use Google Skitch Stitch. Did I say Skitch? I said Skitch Henderson.

Jeff Jarvis [01:35:58]:
He was a famous guy.

Leo Laporte [01:36:00]:
Wonderful. Follow the bouncing ball. Stitch which is their. Was what we were going to use Paris to design secretly British. It's their very nice design to tool. So I was able to ingest it into my Hermes. But then it wanted money.

Paris Martineau [01:36:16]:
How dare they.

Leo Laporte [01:36:17]:
It wanted tokens. So even though I pay quite a bit for Google models, they don't give you a lot for free. Much like Anthropic, you have to use it within the Google tool and all of that. So I am a fan of open models.

Jeff Jarvis [01:36:32]:
You couldn't look at it, but Paris told us right before the show that Miramoradi's model is up.

Leo Laporte [01:36:39]:
Yeah, I haven't played with it, but

Paris Martineau [01:36:40]:
yeah, be quite good with design.

Leo Laporte [01:36:42]:
Interesting.

Jeff Jarvis [01:36:44]:
It's called inkling.

Leo Laporte [01:36:45]:
Increasingly, I think the attitude we're having is that maybe the solution, instead of having a 10 trillion parameter model, that's what Nate B. Jones says Fable is you have smaller, you know, several billion parameter models that just do one thing well. Steve Gibson says you're going to have small local models that are really as good as coding as Fable because it won't have all that other crap.

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:10]:
That's the on the code argument as well.

Leo Laporte [01:37:12]:
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:13]:
And then also you give it a task, it does the task, it stops. It's not trying to make paperclips till the end of time.

Leo Laporte [01:37:19]:
Yeah.

Paris Martineau [01:37:21]:
Would you like me to do that task again but with two extra things on it?

Leo Laporte [01:37:26]:
Actually, Darren says he pays for Gemini but doesn't use it because every time it does it costs causes more damage than it fixes. That's one of the reasons I try all these models is to see how much damage they can do. So I can say don't, whatever you do, don't use this. I have to admit, Grok 4. 5 is very good. It's very. It's fast.

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:44]:
So Inkling is a mixture of Experts Transformer with 975 billion total parameters, 41 billion active. It supports context window of up to 1 million tokens.

Leo Laporte [01:37:54]:
So you could probably run that locally.

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:56]:
It was Pre trained on 45 trillion tokens of text, images, audio, video.

Leo Laporte [01:38:00]:
Yeah. So they're doing. I don't know why they're valued as highly as they are, mainly just because of the name Miram.

Jeff Jarvis [01:38:06]:
But they're alongside it, we're sharing a preview of inkling.

Paris Martineau [01:38:09]:
I mean this is their first iteration of anything.

Jeff Jarvis [01:38:12]:
Yeah, it's the lighter weight model, has 12 billion active parameters trained with a single similar recipe that achieves strong performance and even lower cost and latency.

Leo Laporte [01:38:21]:
Well, Apple is looking at this model for from Prism ML. In fact, Apple's looking at the company called Bonsai. Very similar. The Idea is a 27 billion parameter model, but because it is, it's based on Quen 3627B which is a very, very good multimodal model, but I'm pretty sure it's also a mixture of experts, which means it only loads in a little bit at a time. So it can run on a phone. It can run in a 18 gigabyte model. That's probably too big for a phone, but they even have smaller versions. There's a 3.9 gigabyte 1 bit quantization version of it which probably isn't very bright.

Leo Laporte [01:39:03]:
When you quantize that heavily you get pretty done. But it fits in 3.9 gigabytes that you could run on an iPhone. So that's what a lot of people are working on. I'm not surprised Thinking Machines is working on that as well. Is the idea of how, how can we get a really smart model into a small space?

Jeff Jarvis [01:39:21]:
Yeah, because ram. The mob's going to use it.

Leo Laporte [01:39:23]:
It's just the RAM is so expensive it doesn't even have to be Mom. It's that same conversation we had with Rafi earlier. Enterprises hate the idea of their proprietary stuff being sent to the cloud. They want to run it locally but they can't get, you know, terabyte RAM computers except at a huge cost. So if you can get it smaller, something they can run locally that's effective. Especially if it's a dedicated model to assert like to your business rules then that, that makes sense. I understand why they would want to do that. Anyway, Apple's in talks with Prism AML about this model because they'd love to put this on their phone.

Paris Martineau [01:40:05]:
I will say though, inkling fine tuned on Tinker produced by Thinking machines is a horrifying combination of words. It's just absolutely. It is the sort of sentence that is technically made up of words but as it leaves my mouth it is if it never existed.

Leo Laporte [01:40:26]:
Tinker session.

Paris Martineau [01:40:29]:
Yeah, no, not what we want.

Leo Laporte [01:40:32]:
Fiji. Simo has now stepped down from Open AI. She took a leave of absence for medical reasons. She now says her medical issues are such that she's going to only be a part time advisor. She was in charge of AGI at OpenAI.

Jeff Jarvis [01:40:48]:
She was also in charge of product.

Leo Laporte [01:40:50]:
Right.

Jeff Jarvis [01:40:50]:
And I have, I, I admire Fiji. I, I knew her at, at Facebook, her blog video. She was in charge of the, the, the, the stream. She a really amazing executive and I think that we'll see her soon. She just had to take care of her health.

Leo Laporte [01:41:09]:
Yeah, I mean three months ago I

Paris Martineau [01:41:10]:
had to go on very serious health issues and wish her all the best.

Jeff Jarvis [01:41:14]:
Yep, she's brilliant.

Leo Laporte [01:41:17]:
They also lost their AI safety guy. Okay. The head of safety at OpenAI is gone, but they're folding the safety be into research again. Johannes Heidecke, two years as head of safety systems at OpenAI. And so OpenAI is going to reorg. Who needs safety after all?

Jeff Jarvis [01:41:42]:
Can we play the anthropic commercial?

Leo Laporte [01:41:45]:
I know what you want. You want the. Can we play it Is an interesting.

Paris Martineau [01:41:49]:
Can we get another commercial on the show?

Leo Laporte [01:41:56]:
I'm gonna say we can play it. What do you think?

Jeff Jarvis [01:42:00]:
Do you want to play with sound trouble? Sound off and captions on. Like this is the kind of stuff that they should.

Leo Laporte [01:42:05]:
Okay. That's less likely to cause a problem. Yeah. Let me turn off the sound and turn on the video and. Okay, so we see a burning building.

Jeff Jarvis [01:42:16]:
You want to turn on the captions because there are.

Leo Laporte [01:42:18]:
I think I did.

Jeff Jarvis [01:42:19]:
Okay.

Paris Martineau [01:42:19]:
Okay.

Leo Laporte [01:42:20]:
Oh, I just turned them off again. There we go. Can AI be trusted? It's showing a lot of people's faces. Who's going to hit the stop button if we need to? How do we really aiming to it? It's going so fast. This is.

Jeff Jarvis [01:42:33]:
It's showing a house on fire. It's showing really dystopian scenes. It's showing a cemetery with a bunch of.

Leo Laporte [01:42:38]:
If it ends up taking all the jobs.

Jeff Jarvis [01:42:41]:
I'm so depressed and worried and.

Leo Laporte [01:42:43]:
Wait a minute. Why do we have to have this stuff showing a data center showing a car being built? If a machine can pretend to care better than I can actually care, how do we draw the line?

Jeff Jarvis [01:42:53]:
Now the music goes from minor key to major key.

Leo Laporte [01:42:55]:
If we all had a voice in it, then I feel like it would be better. Could AI help people stop? What is the point of this, Jeff?

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:03]:
Just keep going. Keep going.

Leo Laporte [01:43:04]:
Could AI help me build more?

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:06]:
So now it's in the positive. Could it help me build more good for the community?

Leo Laporte [01:43:09]:
Look, it can open a fire hydrant and the kids can play teacher.

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:13]:
Maybe a better mom.

Leo Laporte [01:43:15]:
Maybe it'll cure some great things.

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:16]:
You actually want to cure some bad things?

Leo Laporte [01:43:18]:
Yeah. There's a nurse with an open anthropic sticker on her laptop.

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:23]:
Will it create a group of people that ask more questions?

Leo Laporte [01:43:26]:
Will it make whales jump in the air?

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:29]:
We'll be starting to be more human again.

Leo Laporte [01:43:30]:
Yes. Beautiful.

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:31]:
We don't want to lose the most beautiful parts of life.

Leo Laporte [01:43:33]:
There's hope. It says in hard questions. We don't have any answers.

Paris Martineau [01:43:38]:
What is the point of this ad?

Leo Laporte [01:43:40]:
I don't get it. Exactly.

Paris Martineau [01:43:41]:
It's like, remember all the things you hate about AI? What if they actually weren't that Bad. Or if they are that bad. What if we asked questions and we've

Jeff Jarvis [01:43:51]:
been telling you it's terrible, but in our hands, we're going to ask good questions.

Paris Martineau [01:43:55]:
I think I really enjoyed when they just showed a photo of a whale jumping out of the water.

Leo Laporte [01:44:00]:
This is the duality of open AI, isn't it? This is what they did with Mythos. This is dangerous.

Jeff Jarvis [01:44:05]:
This is the.

Paris Martineau [01:44:06]:
No, this is. This is anthropic, not open a. I'm sorry.

Jeff Jarvis [01:44:09]:
Emails with. With. With Mythos. Yeah. So Sam Altman responded in a tweet. I thought this was satire. Kept looking for the handle to be spelled C1 oddly I or something. Then Sam came back and said, hold on.

Paris Martineau [01:44:26]:
That's actually very funny. And tell me.

Jeff Jarvis [01:44:27]:
It is very funny that.

Paris Martineau [01:44:29]:
That Sam Altman was like, no one will be dumb enough to point out all the stuff that people hate about our company. Opening is.

Jeff Jarvis [01:44:35]:
So his next tweet is hard. Questions are great, but only if we deem you worthy enough to not silently downgrade you or even get access at all. Beth. Jesus said Jesus or Jesus. How do you. How does one pronounce that? I don't.

Leo Laporte [01:44:50]:
I don't even know.

Jeff Jarvis [01:44:53]:
Said. Here it is. Anthropic is strategically trying to burn the AI vibes to. To the ground so people overregulate and the game gets frozen while they're in the lead. It's. It's ridiculous why they do this. If you go to tech meme, it shows, you know, 100 tweets about it. People are scratching their heads.

Leo Laporte [01:45:15]:
Schizophrenic about AI.

Jeff Jarvis [01:45:16]:
They are.

Leo Laporte [01:45:17]:
We hate it. We love it. We hate it. We love it. It's terrifying. It's going to be the best thing ever. So this ad really completely reflects.

Jeff Jarvis [01:45:24]:
Yeah, we hate ourselves. We love ourselves. We hate our product. We love our product. Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:45:28]:
Up here's a. Here's a vulnerability vending machine. This is. This is not my. My pick. We put in tokens and vulnerabilities come out. It's an interesting idea. What else? Australia is demanding AI companies must produce more energy than they consume and stop stealing content.

Leo Laporte [01:46:06]:
I feel like governmental regulation is going to be a really big issue in the coming years of. With these immediately, I think. I think Dario has to stop putting out negative stuff about AI because the job at this point is to convince government it isn't as. As far threatening as you think. In fact, the White House is speaking to what Rafi was talking about earlier. Has not ruled out action on open source AI models as well.

Jeff Jarvis [01:46:33]:
That's what I'm scared of. Exactly.

Leo Laporte [01:46:36]:
So it's not just Anthropic and Methos. They're also worried about open weight models.

Paris Martineau [01:46:43]:
I also think, though that this is the sort of administration that even if they had, had made a statement today, being like, we've ruled out any action on open source models that could change 17 times in the next two and a half years, much less the next two years.

Leo Laporte [01:47:00]:
So, yeah, it's no, there's no point.

Jeff Jarvis [01:47:01]:
Even so, Eric Schmidt wrote. There were two interesting op EDS Eric Schmidt wrote on the New York Times. We must address the growing rage against the AI machine, which is what's happening right now. That's why he wants you to address it, because otherwise they're gonna get regulated to hell. The other interesting one, one.

Leo Laporte [01:47:15]:
Well. Or you're gonna get firebombed. I mean, there's a. This is the Wall Street Journal article. The hardline activists ramping up for the war with AI. The resistance to artificial intelligence is growing over fears about human extinction. But then there's these activists who are, you know.

Jeff Jarvis [01:47:34]:
Well, they're being fed by the companies themselves.

Leo Laporte [01:47:37]:
Yeah, we're gonna see an. I mean, I've been saying this for a while. There's gonna be a schism between people who want AI and people who want to stop it at any. With, for any means, by any means necessary.

Jeff Jarvis [01:47:51]:
The history of the Internet didn't help.

Leo Laporte [01:47:53]:
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [01:47:53]:
Meanwhile, Paul Ford wrote an op ed in the New York Times, which I think you're going to like a lot if you didn't read it.

Leo Laporte [01:47:59]:
I read it.

Jeff Jarvis [01:48:00]:
Code is free speech. What he's arguing in terms of the open source and regulation is code is speech and it needs protection. Do you disagree with that?

Leo Laporte [01:48:10]:
It's not a. No, I don't disagree with it. I don't think he made a very persuasive argument. If it didn't, it wasn't very. I wasn't persuasive. In my opinion. It was. It was an opinion, yes.

Leo Laporte [01:48:25]:
He has an opinion. There's no question about it. That's all I have to say about it. Just. It didn't. It didn't wow me. All right, let's take one last break. Picks of the week coming up in just a moment.

Leo Laporte [01:48:41]:
You're watching Intelligent Machines, Paris Martineau, Jeff Jarvis, and you dear friends. And a special thank you to all of our club twit members who make this show possible. So let me show you. I mentioned Super Dario. It's pretty much, I would say, a one shot joke, probably a One shot. AI you will like it, because if you've ever played Super Mario, you will recognize it. It says Fable 5. Trust us.

Leo Laporte [01:49:09]:
This is the good one. There's. There's Dario jumping around. Still the most powerful model this week. Watch out for that.

Paris Martineau [01:49:17]:
Oh, don't get hit by little Claude Flowers.

Leo Laporte [01:49:19]:
Here's the good news. You can't really die on this because there's Sam Altman. Watch out for him. He's slippery. Fable five extended by popular demand.

Jeff Jarvis [01:49:31]:
Look at that.

Leo Laporte [01:49:32]:
Through July 12th. Good news. I was able to extend it. Let's extend it some more. What do you say? Jump over. Oh, back in the hole. Jump over some. Sam Altman's wiped out again.

Leo Laporte [01:49:44]:
But. But wait. Fable 5 evaluations going now with 3% more reasoning extended through July 19th. If you keep playing, you keep extending it. And that's the beauty of this silly little game.

Jeff Jarvis [01:49:58]:
Who got to show it?

Leo Laporte [01:50:01]:
Super Dario, my pick of the week. I have others, actually, but I think that's. That's the best one. There is a guy who's put up a post on how to get Claude to stop using the words load bearing. There are certain. I don't know if you've noticed this, but there are certain tropes that keep coming up.

Raffi Krikorian [01:50:20]:
Up.

Leo Laporte [01:50:20]:
The AIs can't stop doing it. Load bearing is one of the most annoying. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. But there is a whole article on the Atlantic about. It's not X, it's Y. The most famous AI writing tick. And they all do it. The funny thing is, Willow Ramos.

Leo Laporte [01:50:38]:
They all do it. It's not just one model. Everybody does load bearing. Everybody does. It's not X, it's Y. Oh, one more thing. Thing. Because you.

Leo Laporte [01:50:47]:
Because this is important. The history of LLMs. Actually, somebody in the club sent me this. The timeline and evolution of large language models going back as far as 1950. So this is really interesting because it talks about Transformers, how they came about with the history of LLMs from Eliza to GPT. The rise of modern LMS starting in 2018. The Reasoning Revolution starting in 2024. Or if you're interested in just.

Leo Laporte [01:51:18]:
It's not very long in a few pages, you can really get how we got here from there. I think it's a really well done page and I should give you the address, shouldn't I? T O L O K A dot A I Toloka. And it's in Toloka's blog to look, I guess is a company that does AI training.

Jeff Jarvis [01:51:40]:
Meaning.

Leo Laporte [01:51:41]:
And Now, Paris Martino, your pick of the week.

Paris Martineau [01:51:45]:
My pick of the week is an article I published today. Just a quick thing about.

Leo Laporte [01:51:50]:
I wanted to ask you.

Paris Martineau [01:51:52]:
Outbreak, which you've probably heard, you've probably seen all the headlines about explosive diarrhea is sweeping the nation. I dug into.

Leo Laporte [01:52:00]:
Is that the actual headline?

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:02]:
Expensive.

Leo Laporte [01:52:02]:
I mean, diarrhea is sweeping the nation.

Paris Martineau [01:52:04]:
Basically the. They're all about how.

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:06]:
That's the tweet, Leo.

Paris Martineau [01:52:07]:
That's the tweet is. I dug into the data and it's a bit more complicated than that. My. The headline of it is no, you shouldn't avoid fruits and vegetables due to cyclist war just because I feel like there has been a bit of a misnomer, misconception perpetuated lately.

Leo Laporte [01:52:26]:
If I cook it, is it going to be safe?

Paris Martineau [01:52:29]:
Yes, but it.

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:29]:
So your salad, do you want your salad cooked?

Leo Laporte [01:52:32]:
No, but maybe I won't.

Paris Martineau [01:52:34]:
Let me give you, I guess, some general background. We have an outbreak going on of Cyclospora. It's a parasite that can cause extreme diarrhea. The context though is every summer in the US Cyclospora cases surge just because that's kind of how it works. It transmission only really happens in the summer. The U.S. has seen, you know, around 500 to like 4,700 cases of this a year. It happens in a bunch of different states.

Paris Martineau [01:53:06]:
Technically, right now the amount of states that are reporting infections is lower than it was at this point last year. However, the number of total infections is significantly higher. I was asking myself what's going on here really? It seems like what's going on is you've got your normal spread of like a little bit of an uptick all over the US Plus a huge surge that's going on in Michigan and three other kind of surrounding states that seems to be related based on some genetic testing the CDC has done. But they haven't figured out, you know, what the exact source is and what the food is. So if you're in those areas, in Michigan in particular, people recommend that, you know, you don't buy bagged lettuce with which could possibly be a source of the outbreak.

Jeff Jarvis [01:53:55]:
But what happens because you want a head that you can wash yourself? Is that the idea?

Paris Martineau [01:53:58]:
Yeah. If you want to have salad and you're in those areas, you should get a head of. You could get a head of lettuce, remove the first couple of leaves on it, maybe wash the outside, chop it yourself. Generally, people recommend, you know, avoid pre chopped, you know, vegetables or fruits. Chop it Wash it yourself. However, however, if you are in Michigan and the three other states around there that have been identified as kind of a cluster, Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia and Kentucky, what our food safety experts recommend is like maybe for the next week or two, avoid lettuce generally, if that's possible for you. I think that that's a fairly targeted recommendation. It's only because there's some preliminary data from Michigan, the state that is responsible for the majority of the cases so far has kind of picked up some singles signals that it could be lettuce related.

Paris Martineau [01:54:53]:
But this really means for everybody outside of that cluster you don't need to be totally panicking and avoiding eating all fruits and vegetables. There's a couple of other states that are seeing like a slight uptick in cases, like higher than average number of cases for this time of year. Like New York state has 500 cases and in a normal season of summer they get like 5 to 700. It's not out of normal, but it's a little higher. If you're in one of those states like New York or Illinois, wash your food whenever you're cooking it, make sure you wash your hands, stuff like that.

Jeff Jarvis [01:55:30]:
So Taco Bell seemed to preemptively made an announcement that it would stop selling things with lettuce and cilantro and some other things which struck me as preemptive, like we're going to be safe. But then the stories are kind of, well, they're investigating Taco Bell. Did you come across anything about it?

Paris Martineau [01:55:47]:
Well, I did. This is something I've looked. My understanding of the timeline is what happened is Michigan has. So the way the food borne illness surveillance system in the US works, it's basically kind of state by state basis. They don't get that much money from, from the federal government, but they're trying their best. Michigan's actually been really trying hard on this. They've been publishing case totals every single day, trying to give advice. Early on, like in the last week or two, they were like, hey, you know, we're starting to see some of these signals around lettuce.

Paris Martineau [01:56:19]:
This is something that's historically been connected here. Everybody watch out. And around this time, Taco Bell pulls lettuce off its products. They say this is just preemptive because lettuce, and specifically bagged and pre chopped lettuce, like the sort a fast food restaurant would use, is often implicated when these sort of outbreaks happen. The same thing happened with McDonald's like eight years ago. And I kind of believe them on that. I Mean, yeah, the thing is, I obviously don't know what Taco Bell does and doesn't know. And none of the investigators have said it absolutely is or absolutely isn't Taco Bell.

Paris Martineau [01:56:58]:
But the sort of thing is, like, when health investigators are looking into this, they are looking into what restaurants, what fast food chains, what grocery stores you shopped at, what you bought. And if it was something as simple as the lettuce and the Taco Bell has this parasite, I think that would provide, like, a very strong and identifiable signal that would be more easy to identify and perhaps would have a larger national spread than the strange cluster of cases in just, like, one region that we're seeing that seems to be hitting a more supplier than the demographics of the people who are getting sick. Like, the average age is 44, and it's more. It's like 60% women. Like, it doesn't scream Taco Bell. To me. That screams bagged salad or, like, herbs, which are common things. Obviously, that's just speculation, but that Washington Post article about Taco Bell you're talking about, that I've read, and I mean, I never.

Paris Martineau [01:57:56]:
I don't know what other journalists do and don't know, but it wasn't written to me. It was based on an honest sourcing, which could be totally legitimate, but it wasn't written to me in a sense that felt like, super strong. Like, my hypothesis is that maybe, like, Taco Bell recall, they're not recall.

Jeff Jarvis [01:58:14]:
Responsible, Preemptive.

Paris Martineau [01:58:15]:
Yeah, responsibly. They pulled this because they're like, listen, we don't want to be involved. Involved in this. And then some investigators were like, huh, Taco Bell headlines has pulled. We should look into it. And that seems to be the extent of what's happened.

Jeff Jarvis [01:58:29]:
Isn't the gestation period for it also longer? That makes it harder to.

Paris Martineau [01:58:33]:
Yeah, it's kind of complicated. Whenever you eat something, it could be like, two weeks later that you get sick, and then you're sick for quite some time. It's also way more complicated to track. Like, if you're looking for something like salmonella, like, it's pretty easy and fast for health officials and investigators to, like, both determine that salmonella is on the thing or find it in your sample and then kind of genetically test it. Everything about that process for cyclospora is way harder. Plus the fact that, you know, it's a somewhat rarish parasite, comparatively. So the average doctor, before this outbreak became national news, probably didn't have that top of mind. If a patient came in with Diarrhea.

Paris Martineau [01:59:19]:
So.

Leo Laporte [01:59:20]:
So if I wash my. You do talk about this in your article. You can wash it off, right?

Paris Martineau [01:59:26]:
I mean, yes. And it's important. Everybody should be washing their produce anyway, just because that's an important, helpful step to do.

Leo Laporte [01:59:33]:
I put baking soda on it when I wash it.

Paris Martineau [01:59:36]:
I'm not. Not certain as to the efficacy of baking soda. I mean, I looked into some of the, like, medical and scientific research on this, and it seems to indicate that cyclospora is more difficult to remove from foods than other parasites. There was some scientists that did a study of, like, berries, which is something that often.

Leo Laporte [01:59:54]:
But less cyclospore is better.

Paris Martineau [01:59:56]:
Yeah, less cyclospore is better.

Leo Laporte [01:59:57]:
They were like, you know, related to the quantity.

Paris Martineau [01:59:59]:
They're like having your berries in a strainer under cold water for a minute, rinse them. That got rid of a sizable chunk. You know, I think it got rid of, let's see, 11 to 69% of the cyclospora in raspberries are harder because

Jeff Jarvis [02:00:19]:
there's all these little hiding spots.

Paris Martineau [02:00:20]:
I say raspberries are harder than blueberries, but. So water was like 11 to 69% water with like a vinegar. Vinegar solution. It was like one part vinegar, three parts water. I've got a link to the part and the thing that says it was slightly more effective but still not crazy. The most effective was like, rinsing it with water and then putting it in a salad strainer and spinning it around and then rinsing it again, basically. But that still left some on it generally. I mean, though, removing cyclospora from a contaminated item could be beneficial because it means there's less parasite your body has to fight off.

Paris Martineau [02:00:55]:
But, I mean, there's no indication that this is coming from berries so far. And some of the researchers I spoke to said, actually the demographic data we're starting to see, we've seen so far indicates it might not be the case. Because, I mean, I don't know if you guys know anything about children, but children love to consume berries by like the pound full, it seems. And we're not seeing a really high rate of infection in children. Again, it seems to be.

Jeff Jarvis [02:01:21]:
I have my raspberries every morning. That's good to know.

Paris Martineau [02:01:24]:
I mean, my general take on this is. I know it's really easy to get freaked out about stuff. Obviously, nobody wants to get explosive diarrhea. But when you're. If you're outside of these effective areas and if you're in a state that isn't seeing an unusually high number of cases. You know, you can just take basic food safety precautions.

Jeff Jarvis [02:01:43]:
So today I went to Popeyes because I had a. I had a hankering for the Popeyes fried chicken sandwich. But I really like the new Popeyes wrapped wrap. It has some lettuce and some cheese in it and it's really good. But I decided not the time to have the wrap today because of the lettuce. So instead I had the sandwich. That was my safety tip.

Paris Martineau [02:02:00]:
I mean, yeah, I think especially for people, if anyone is like immunocompromised or has risk factors, people particularly young, particularly old someone, if there's something about your, your situation that might cause you pause, where getting a fairly severe intense bout of diarrhea could be catastrophic for you. Take every precaution you want. If it's just something to make you feel better, take every precaution you want. If you do just want to act on the data that we do and don't have. For a lot of people, just, you know, washing your fruits and veggies and washing your hands is probably a good baseline to be at right now.

Jeff Jarvis [02:02:44]:
See, folks, how handy it is to have a food detective right here article,

Leo Laporte [02:02:48]:
like all our articles free@consumer reports.org no, you shouldn't avoid fruits and vegetables.

Paris Martineau [02:02:54]:
And people are so mad at me about this online. They keep being like, did the virus write this?

Jeff Jarvis [02:02:59]:
Do you not know?

Paris Martineau [02:03:01]:
And I'm like, it's a parasite.

Leo Laporte [02:03:03]:
And no, I'm just like saying that

Paris Martineau [02:03:07]:
yes, you should be be allowed to eat fruits and vegetables. Things you need to have a balanced diet. Does not mean. I'm saying you can't take whatever precautions you want.

Leo Laporte [02:03:18]:
I eat Wyman's frozen wild blueberries all the time. And I'm going to presume that. Psycho.

Paris Martineau [02:03:24]:
I was going to say frozen.

Jeff Jarvis [02:03:26]:
Why frozen? Why do you. Why not fresh?

Leo Laporte [02:03:28]:
Because blueberries last fresh about three seconds.

Paris Martineau [02:03:32]:
That is true. They do.

Jeff Jarvis [02:03:33]:
Raspberries are faster.

Leo Laporte [02:03:35]:
I just, I mean, they're the wild blueberries, which a. I don't have access to keep perfectly well frozen and they thaw out nicely and I love them.

Paris Martineau [02:03:44]:
Wow. I never thought about the fact that you could have thaw them out.

Leo Laporte [02:03:48]:
Amazing.

Paris Martineau [02:03:49]:
I've always just thought of frozen blueberries as a frozen smoothie.

Leo Laporte [02:03:54]:
Yeah, they're good frozen. As a matter of fact, yes. Again, consumerreports.org, jeff Jarvis, pick of the week.

Jeff Jarvis [02:04:01]:
Okay, a couple quick things. One is that Google has started a new profiles thing for creators. So I went and did it. So if you go to profile,.google.comffjarvis you'll see.

Leo Laporte [02:04:14]:
This is kind of like about me, right?

Jeff Jarvis [02:04:16]:
Yeah. So you can link it to your Facebook, Twitter, Instagram blog, and so on.

Leo Laporte [02:04:22]:
What's the URL, though? Is.

Jeff Jarvis [02:04:24]:
It's what I just said. It's profile.google.com eff Jarvis.

Leo Laporte [02:04:29]:
Aha.

Jeff Jarvis [02:04:30]:
Okay, so that's one. And then last week, or I think it was last week, week before last, we talked about the French jackets. Yes, that from Alice Karp.

Paris Martineau [02:04:40]:
Oh.

Jeff Jarvis [02:04:40]:
Oh, no. Another mention of Alice Carp today.

Leo Laporte [02:04:43]:
Well, you've now broken the record, ladies and gentlemen.

Paris Martineau [02:04:46]:
That's introducing Alex Carp.

Jeff Jarvis [02:04:51]:
So there's a, There's a variation on the, on the jacket, which I, I think might appeal to all of us and our listeners. The slow learner, Dusk jacket. Slow learner to carry a lot of books.

Leo Laporte [02:05:03]:
Oh, I have seen this. It's got a big pocket for books.

Jeff Jarvis [02:05:06]:
Huge pocket for books. Multiple pockets for books everywhere.

Paris Martineau [02:05:10]:
We should all get matching jackets.

Leo Laporte [02:05:12]:
Guys, I might get. It's still 200 bucks. It's not cheap. Oh, it does come in other colors.

Paris Martineau [02:05:18]:
Oh, the.

Leo Laporte [02:05:19]:
Doesn't have to be black. Would you like orange, green, or blue? That's cute. Yeah, and it's got a big.

Paris Martineau [02:05:28]:
We should all get matching intelligent machines. Letterman jackets, they call it.

Leo Laporte [02:05:33]:
They call it anti workwear because you should go and read and. And.

Jeff Jarvis [02:05:38]:
But why do you need to care? When do you ever need to carry five books with you?

Leo Laporte [02:05:43]:
Like this clown?

Jeff Jarvis [02:05:44]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [02:05:44]:
He doesn't even look happy about it.

Paris Martineau [02:05:47]:
That man looks like he lives in Bushwick. Is going to ruin your life.

Leo Laporte [02:05:50]:
I have too many books. I don't want to read all these books.

Paris Martineau [02:05:55]:
That man is somehow smoking three cigarettes at once in the L train.

Leo Laporte [02:06:00]:
Oh. Well, does she look any happier? No.

Jeff Jarvis [02:06:04]:
Look more determined.

Paris Martineau [02:06:05]:
Coleman has four to six fine line tattoos on.

Leo Laporte [02:06:12]:
I don't know what that means.

Raffi Krikorian [02:06:13]:
I'm doing Brooklyn discrimination right now.

Leo Laporte [02:06:17]:
You are?

Jeff Jarvis [02:06:17]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [02:06:18]:
You are. Ladies and gentlemen, we do intelligent machines every Wednesday, 2pm Pacific, 5pm Eastern. That's 2100 UTC. Although if Congress gets its way, I don't know, it'll all be daylight savings.

Jeff Jarvis [02:06:34]:
We'll have nothing to talk about because there's no AI too.

Leo Laporte [02:06:37]:
I don't know. I don't know. Next week, Nate B. Jones, AI strategist, will join us. His YouTube channel, Nate B. Jones is incredible. The following week, finally, Henry Blodgett will show up, will join us. I'm excited about that.

Jeff Jarvis [02:06:51]:
He's got a novel that involves AI in some way.

Leo Laporte [02:06:55]:
Ah, okay.

Jeff Jarvis [02:06:56]:
And his newsletter involves AI is This

Paris Martineau [02:06:57]:
our first convicted security fraudster.

Jeff Jarvis [02:07:00]:
Yes. On the pod, as far as we know. Right.

Paris Martineau [02:07:03]:
I mean, that can't be true given the amount of AI boys on this show. But this is the only known, the

Leo Laporte [02:07:10]:
only one we know about. And Philip Shoemaker following that. He is the founder and CEO of PersonaShield. And I've forgotten why that's of interest, but I'm sure it is. There's a reason we booked him, so I'm sure that'll be of great interest. Actually, at some point I want to get Christina Warren on. She works at GitHub where she is kind of responsible for copilot their AI. And she announced on the show on MacBreak weekly on Tuesday day the release of their desktop application for co pilot, which is quite nice.

Leo Laporte [02:07:41]:
Quite nice harness. So those are all upcoming shows you can watch.

Jeff Jarvis [02:07:45]:
One more little tip this this week. Yes. I want to see the invite yesterday. It's very good.

Leo Laporte [02:07:49]:
Oh, I can't wait to see that. I hear good things about it.

Paris Martineau [02:07:52]:
I got to see the Odyssey.

Jeff Jarvis [02:07:53]:
You got five stars in the Guardian. The Odyssey did 97.

Paris Martineau [02:07:58]:
Jeff, do you want to go to the 7am IMAX Odyssey screening with me?

Leo Laporte [02:08:03]:
Only one you get into is it 70 millimeter film.

Jeff Jarvis [02:08:06]:
It's. It is filmed in IMAX.

Leo Laporte [02:08:09]:
I know, but I mean, you have to go to a movie theater of which there are only a handful.

Paris Martineau [02:08:14]:
No, no, no.

Leo Laporte [02:08:14]:
We're going to screen this one.

Paris Martineau [02:08:16]:
Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte [02:08:16]:
You need to go to 70 millimeter film in Brooklyn to see.

Paris Martineau [02:08:20]:
No, in AMC.

Leo Laporte [02:08:23]:
Is it the real. So it's a 70 millimeter.

Paris Martineau [02:08:25]:
It's the super. Yeah, it's the super 70 millimeter IMAX one.

Leo Laporte [02:08:28]:
I saw Oppenheimer on a 70 millimeter film and it was.

Paris Martineau [02:08:32]:
Oh, did I. Too big.

Leo Laporte [02:08:34]:
It's very large.

Paris Martineau [02:08:35]:
Well, no, no, we're talking about 70 millimeter. It's the.

Leo Laporte [02:08:37]:
I'm.

Paris Martineau [02:08:37]:
It is it is that.

Leo Laporte [02:08:39]:
No. So there. So there are formats and IMAX is usually distributed digitally. Nolan, because he is the most influential director of his generation, is able to convince his backers to shoot it on IMAX film.

Paris Martineau [02:08:53]:
Oh, yes. These are the ones that are hundreds of pounds.

Leo Laporte [02:08:56]:
It's actually the first movie to be shot. Shot entirely. I didn't realize this. Oppenheimer was not shot entirely in 7 million reel film. But this one is actually. You know what I want to see here.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:06]:
Every reel is only three minutes long. So they can only shoot for three minutes at a time.

Leo Laporte [02:09:09]:
They have to make a special platter, sideways platter to hold the film because it's so long.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:17]:
And it's projected horizontally.

Leo Laporte [02:09:19]:
It's projected horizontally. But the movie I want to see. They just showed the trailer publicly for the first time. In fact, it was on the World cup cup broadcast today. Tom Cruise, just. If you want a kick, if you want to laugh. The Tom Cruise digger.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:33]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [02:09:34]:
You've never seen Tom Cruise like this?

Paris Martineau [02:09:35]:
No.

Leo Laporte [02:09:36]:
Never ever.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:37]:
It is. I was quite surprising.

Leo Laporte [02:09:39]:
Yes. And I did start watching, thanks to you. Paris Spider Noir. The Black.

Paris Martineau [02:09:46]:
Oh, how is that? I need to watch that.

Leo Laporte [02:09:47]:
It's good. Nicolas Cage. Never better. Really good.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:52]:
I just realized I need to rewatch Metropolis because it was.

Leo Laporte [02:09:55]:
I haven't seen it yet. Is it.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:57]:
No, no, no, no, no, no.

Leo Laporte [02:09:58]:
The original Megalop.

Paris Martineau [02:10:01]:
We all need to also watch Megalop.

Leo Laporte [02:10:04]:
Is it out yet? I don't think you can see it. I don't know.

Jeff Jarvis [02:10:08]:
Metropolis was set in 2026.

Leo Laporte [02:10:11]:
Welcome to the future, ladies.

Jeff Jarvis [02:10:13]:
Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte [02:10:14]:
That's why we're doing this show.

Jeff Jarvis [02:10:15]:
It's about AI you can watch us

Leo Laporte [02:10:17]:
live, but you don't have to. You get on demand versions of the show on our website, TWiT TV, IM audio and video there.

Raffi Krikorian [02:10:22]:
There.

Leo Laporte [02:10:23]:
There's also a YouTube channel with video, interestingly enough. Great way to share it with friends and family or subscribe on your favorite podcast player. Thanks everybody for joining us. We'll see you next week on Intelligent Machines. Bye bye. I'm not a human being.

Paris Martineau [02:10:40]:
Not into this animal scene. I'm an intelligent machine.