MacBreak Weekly 894, Transcript

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for Mac Break Weekly. Alex Lindsay's here,  Andy Ihnatko, Jason Snell. Jason's got the new iMac, he's got the new 16-inch MacBook Pro Max, so we're going to talk about those and how to decide what to buy. The Linux folks found an OS bug that leaves your machine unbootable. We'll talk about why Apple has done the right thing when it comes to processors, but maybe the wrong thing when it comes to AI. All that and more coming up next on Mac Break Weekly. Podcasts you love.

00:33
From people you trust. This is TWIT. This is Mac Break Weekly, episode 894, recorded Tuesday, november 7th 2023. The Streisand Effect.

00:50
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02:11 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yes, it's a great thing about this this daylight savings thing, Ending drinking hour comes an hour earlier than it normally used to.

02:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
My step-grandpa Ray used to say well, the sun's over the yard arm and that would be the signal to begin drinking Yard arms are adjustable though. Yeah, I don't know if what time is the sun's over the yard arm Sounds like maybe that's noon, I don't know. I don't know exactly what that means, but I, ray knew, he knew, and also, hello, jason Snell SixColors.

02:44 - Jason Snell (Host)
Hello, leolist, get together. I like that we're getting together, just like we do Get together.

02:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have reviews. Your embargoes have been lifted off your broad shoulders.

02:56 - Jason Snell (Host)
I am free of embargoes. I did not have anything when we talked last week, by the way, because it was still on. The check was in the mail, but it all arrived. So, yeah, yeah, I got a green iMac behind me. I got a space black actually dark gray Macbook pro with me. You know I got it. It's dark. I mean it's darker than space gray.

03:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Christina Warren said she loved the keyboard of it. Is it a nice? Like how it looked?

03:27 - Jason Snell (Host)
I mean, I don't know it's, it's all it does, because the keyboard's got the black around it so you can even more clearly see how it's not black, yeah, yeah.

03:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But the black what? Could it be, and the answer is a keyboard. Black.

03:40 - Jason Snell (Host)
The rest of the computer more black, much more black.

03:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, we gotta get. We gotta get a spinal tap on this one and maybe they can help us.

03:48 - Jason Snell (Host)
That's right. There's nothing wrong with being sexy.

03:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So you have two things you have an iMac and a 16 inch Mac and a 16 inch Macs MacBook pro Just on the iMac notes, I saw that the that Apple made a statement to Indeed.

04:07 - Jason Snell (Host)
Well, they made a statement to everybody. I got the same statement. Some of us just mentioned it in our iMac reviews, other of us wrote a whole story about it, because I guess some of us want clicks more than others of us do in our business model and that's fine.

04:21
But, yes, apple provided a statement to multiple outlets saying, just so we're clear, because I thought it was crystal clear we talked about it last week. They had a whole talking point. That was hey, everybody, we think this, this iMac screen is so great, it's great for 21 and a half and 27 inch iMac users on Intel to come to this one because it's perfect. That's Apple saying. We're not going to. This is the one, and that was apparently not clear enough. So now they have made a statement which is, I believe, technically we have no plans to make a 27 inch iMac, which is funny because they could get plans later and they can get plans for a larger iMac to 27 at any time and even have them now. But that's not what they're doing. It's a marketing statement. What they're really let me translate it for you what they're saying is hey, 27 inch iMac owners on Intel who are waiting, thinking that there's going to be an iMac just around the corner of the same size, stop waiting and buy something. That's what they're saying.

05:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How cynical are they? Do you think they actually have a 30 inch in the works and they're really being somewhat?

05:23 - Jason Snell (Host)
quite what I've heard. What I've heard through the grapevine is that in the M1 iMac process they tried to pencil out the cost of a larger iMac and they felt it didn't make sense. They felt that the cost and the time to do it, the cost of the panel, what they'd have to sell it for, they didn't think it was worth it and they legitimately thought 24 fills a lot of use cases. And on top of that, remember, they put the studio display into design and production and now we have a 27 inch panel in a studio display that will go with any of their systems. And I think that that is. I think they're not lying when they say look, we have options for you. If you want a 27 inch screen, you just buy one of these displays and then attach it to anything. You want a laptop?

06:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
a Mac mini, whatever. A lot more sense because you're going to you could you keep the screen and you upgrade the computer and that makes a lot more sense.

06:13 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, it's actually a lot less wasteful and I that's one of the things that Apple still doesn't. They got rid of target disk or target display mode and I it still bugs me that they are committed to the environment but they make these IMAX that, once they are outmoded as computers, can't be really retasked as displays. It's frustrating. I would like them to bring that back. But I will say the footnote to what you were asking. Mark German did say that they keep throwing around the idea of a big IMAX, so it sounds like it's out there. But he said, even if they decide to do it, and it sounds like it's way out there, we're talking like 25, 26. So I think the point of Apple statement remains, which is, if you're like hanging on because you don't want to buy, you just know they're going to do a 27 inch model next month or early next year or something like that. They're not. They're absolutely not going to do that. There is no suggestion anywhere in Apple statements or in the reporting from people like Mark German that there's going to be a bigger IMAX anytime until like maybe 25 or 26. And in the meantime, if you want a bigger screen, studio display or some third party display and a different Apple Silicon computer. You got the, you got the mini, you got the studio, you got laptops that work great. There's plenty of other options out there other than an all in one, so they also.

07:25
I don't know if you noticed the URL change. This is a thing that some of us nerds look at. We probably noticed this. It used to be applecom slash IMAX-24. And now it's just applecom slash IMAX. Like oh wow, there's no 24. It's just, it's the IMAX. That's the way it is.

07:41 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I'm sure that they have a lot of data about who's buying what. Like you know, like I think it's sure you know and I don't I mean I have a 27 inch or I have one that's been sitting around but I think that the vast majority of people who want one, I think 24 is going to make a lot of sense and I think that it is, you know. I think that they're kind of like hey, we got monitors for that, like Mac minis and monitors and other things and all kinds of things that you can do with that. I think that I think it totally makes sense.

08:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They also make let's be fair a 27 inch studio display.

08:11 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, exactly, you get a Mac mini and a 27 inch studio Mac mini and a 20 of it, and you're going to end up with that Same panel as that old iMac.

08:17 - Jason Snell (Host)
Exactly the same panel.

08:19 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
And I'm sure they don't want to speed stuff again three processors and devices that they think that they could sell in other boxes anyway. So, yeah, I think this is a long time coming.

08:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So Lisa really wanted to upgrade her 5k iMac. What she really wanted was a camera in the display, because we said, well, okay, we'll get your studio and then you have one big, you know, 49 inch display, we'll get your second one. She said, no, I want an iMac. So we got her the M1, like several months ago, and she's happy. Yeah, she's happy. I'm not. You know, I still have problems with the studio display because I feel like it's I don't know, it does have a camera, doesn't it, or no?

09:01 - Jason Snell (Host)
It does. It's a center stage camera, so it's just like, it's just like an iMac really a decoupled CPU.

09:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So you have, I presume you you reviewed the M1 iMac, yeah, two years ago. Yep, I think the real question is compare the two.

09:21 - Jason Snell (Host)
They are exactly the same. They are exactly the same in every way in the prices, in the features. They didn't change a thing. In fact, my biggest complaint about the M3 iMac is that it is. It has all the same failings as the M1 iMac. And don't get me wrong, it's great Like it is such a great computer it makes me wish I had a place for it in my life. But the fact is the iMac is a niche computer. Now it's not. There was a period there where the iMac was the best choice for anyone who wanted a Mac desktop. Yeah, that's not the case anymore. When you say Apple, you know Alex said that I, like Apple, knows the numbers. It's like. This is totally true. I've heard from people at Apple Like they know where it gets used. It's a niche computer.

09:58
It goes in offices, it goes into some schools, it's in the dental offices, it's front desks, it's at reception in hotels and, like it's got a. They still sell it because it still sells and they make a lot of money on it, but it's not a mainstream computer Like maybe it was five or 10 years ago, and so you know, what they didn't do is anything to change it. And, like it's got, it's still got the 1080 webcam. I wish it had a 4K webcam or they did something better with center stage, honestly, because the iMac deserves a center stage camera and not the 1080 webcam that's in laptops and you know, like I said, doesn't do target display.

10:35
I feel like they're really missing something there and you can't buy it, even though the studio display you can buy, with an adjustable height stand. It's overpriced but you can get it. You cannot buy an adjustable height stand for the iMac and I think the actual default stand is too low, which means you're going to end up putting it on a box or a dictionary or something like that, which kind of takes away from the whole vibe of having an orange iMac.

10:57 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
There's actually a thriving business of little stands that they make just for the iMac on Amazon.

11:02 - Jason Snell (Host)
I mean, I have one for my studio display too. Yeah, it's true. It's just silly that, like I realize it would be overpriced. But like they designed that adjustable stand for the studio display, I don't know why, other than that it isn't color matched to the different models Like I don't know why you wouldn't do a version of that and offer it for the iMac as a $200 upsell, just because that would be nice. But they, literally they changed nothing. All the SKUs are basically the same. There's a low end one that has the power brick, that doesn't have the ethernet port in it but you can buy it, you know and that one doesn't have a touch ID keyboard. It's all the same details. I was looking back to my story from two and a half years ago and like it's literally the same computer, except it has an M3 in it instead of an M1. Now that's an you know, upgrade to Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, but like otherwise, it's exactly the same as it was for the same price.

11:49 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And the reality is I still think that the Mac Mini is a better value, like if you're doing stuff at home and you're not spending a lot of money. You know the Mac Mini is just an incredible machine, for the price especially. I mean it was good, it was like good as glue when it was Intel, when the M series came out, even though this wasn't updated M3 yet. The Mac Minis are just so. I mean, I have a stack of them here and they're all tied to different things and the thing is is that then I use any monitor I want.

12:13
If I don't want to spend as much money on the monitor because I'm only using Excel or I'm not doing something with incredible color, like, I can just spend a lot less and for 800 bucks I can have a Mac Mini and a very good 24 inch monitor, or you know what, or 27 inch monitor or whatever size I want. I can put it on an arm and have the monitor somewhere different than the computer is. All those things happen with the Mac Mini and I think that for the average person, we still got for my parents in law, we still got them on my iMac because they know it. It's simple you turn it on and it plugs in and it works great for them. So there is a place for the iMac, but I think that the Mac Mini at this point is a better value.

12:49 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, I mean it is more expensive to buy an external monitor and an external desktop computer, although a lot of people have laptops, you can put those in Well, I know with the Mac Mini.

12:58 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I mean, if you get the base Mac Mini and you're doing like Excel and email and even I mean I tested Resolve on it just to see what would happen, it was fine, Like it was slow, yeah, but it's still more expensive than buying an iMac to buy a studio display and a Mac Mini, oh, studio display. But I'm just saying If you have a random display, sure, I just have all these Dell monitors. I don't, I don't know. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

13:21 - Jason Snell (Host)
And regardless. I just want to make this point that, regardless, if you, three years from now, buy a new computer, you've now saved money because you didn't have to buy a new display, you just bought the new computer and you will. And at that point, because displays displays last for so long.

13:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They don't get changed as fast as CPUs do.

13:40 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And close and again we can have all these really, really high end monitors and do all this stuff. But for the most part, you know, I have mostly 1080p monitors around me. I have one monitor that is like a color checker. I look at it and everything's as much more expensive. The rest of them are all 180 bucks, like you know, and and there's lots of them and I put different things on each one of them and I think that you know, I don't think that it's anyway, I think that the iMac, a lot of times the color and everything else for the kind of person using it, probably overkill.

14:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I remember, when the Bondi blue iMac came out and then the color iMacs, that this was an era when there was a family computer in the living room. Yeah, and this, much as much as anything else, reflects a change in the way people compute.

14:25 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yes, yeah, I mean remember that the one of the greatest features of the was the 2014 iMac, the one with the Goose neck, when the selling features was that it didn't just look really, really cool, the fact that you kind of, when the parents are using it, you adjust the screen this way.

14:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
When you adjust it downward.

14:43 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
But that's that. But now people are moving towards, I think, that the iMac and the desktop Mac is the default setting, is now the power, is now the Mac books. So that's what people get by default.

14:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You get a Mac and you get a Mac, and you, tommy and Jimmy and Sally and Betty and everybody gets a Mac and there isn't a living or a Mac that we're all using.

15:03 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
What's interesting is that, like for my kids, they have grown up literally almost from day one on iPads, and so their entire experience is all iPads. But it's interesting that they don't you know, like that's just what they you know they have a computing device.

15:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You get a device and you get a device.

15:18 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
But I do think that the iPad is, is you know, at this point, for the next generation? What's interesting is the two ends, under 20 and over 60. The iPad is like the perfect, perfect thing, and and and the in between some of us get more specific. Yeah, you know, with the I'm sorry it's, it's.

15:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's both a change in the way people use computers and better for Apple, because they're going to sell more units of something, and it really is better for everybody to have your own thing Right so you don't have to push mom out of the way, so you can use the computer.

15:50 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Especially to that now that so much schooling is done like on individual devices you can't you can't nudge somebody aside. You can't. You can't have three, you have to. Can't have three kids and I have three computers at this point.

15:59 - Jason Snell (Host)
Pretty yeah, pretty much, and and yeah, I think it is. Also, we were talking about the size of the display. A lot of people were talking about, like, do you even want a 27 inch display versus a 24? I, honestly, I spent the last week mostly using that 24 inch iMac. That's behind me, and the only things that I really need more display room are things like when I'm live streaming or doing video editing or something like that. I can get by, and there's also because these are retina. You can change the display mode to have more space on the screen, and your eyes have to be a little bit better for that. You got to put your glasses on a little bit closer, but like, there are ways to do that. So a lot of people don't really. I mean, apple statement that 24 is a good size. They're not wrong. I mean they're selling something, but they're not wrong. It is a pretty good size for most people.

16:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Anyway, this is the end of the iMac era, and that's really what we're saying and that's what we're mourning. Yeah, it's just. It's that's not how people compute anymore.

16:59 - Jason Snell (Host)
It was a shining moment where it was the mainstream computer right. There was actually that weird moment where Apple's whole Mac strategy was falling apart and they're like we're not, we don't even know how to make a new Mac Pro, we don't even want to make one, let's just make a better iMac. And they made the iMac Pro. Like there was a moment where so many power users on the Mac just bought iMacs because there was the Xeon one in the iMac Pro, there were the i7 and i9s in the high end iMacs. At the end there was great performance way better than a Mac mini in the iMac and the panel was so great because it was one of the first times you could buy a Mac or a display of size you know, above a laptop.

17:37
So we all bought iMacs. I know so many power users who bought iMacs. But that was a little moment in time. And with Apple Silicon and the studio display and the variety and like the Mac Studio plus the Mac mini, apple is now kind of unraveling that. And it comes at a time when, yeah, there are the pro users who might have a desktop. A lot of them are now just using a MacBook Pro or something like that.

18:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Even Apple's own, yeah. So what's left? Even Apple's own pictures of the iMac and use are strained. They're uncomfortable.

18:08 - Jason Snell (Host)
Not on the kitchen island. No, that's what you.

18:12 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
The kitchen island was like that's what you use an iPad for. Yeah, iPad, no one's doing this, they're just. Yeah, exactly.

18:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're strained. So I think, okay, fine, that's fine. It's hard, you know, change is hard, but it's kind of. This is what Apple's saying essentially when they say no, 27 inch, it's over. Kids, Get over it, move on.

18:30 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And when we say over with Apple, it may be another five or 10 years of just a. There's a 24 inch. If you want one, we're going to give you one, and they make a lot of money on the iMac.

18:39 - Jason Snell (Host)
Still, they do, they do, but they see where it's going and they prioritize Like if they were still making what they were making 10 years ago, they would have two of them right, but it's not like that anymore.

18:49 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And we don't keep changing the model. You make more because you know all the. You're amortizing all those costs and now it's all paid for, and so now you're just printing money with those things and there's no reason other than changing the chip or changing a couple of subsystems. If you don't change it and you just and I bet you that iMac will stay almost exactly the same for three to five years, this may be the last model that you'll ever see, like they'll stop making them after they make this one because they've got other fish to fry.

19:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
By the way, this is also what's happening in the PC world. I mean, this is not just Apple. You know, when people buy a PC, they're buying either a gaming thing or a laptop.

19:27 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
They're very rarely getting an all-in-one Well, and I think that's the beauty I mean, I know I keep on coming back to it, but you know, the Mac Minis, they're nice and tiny. They're tiny, they stack, you can put them somewhere, they don't make any noise.

19:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You and I, we use Mac Minis, but we're in for production. We're in an unusual situation.

19:47 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, but even when I talk about like, when we put them in kits that we send out to people, I have six of them right here, but the thing is is they're so inexpensive that they're like glue and they are really. You know, these little machines, and again, I use multiple screens. My eyes aren't good enough to start making everything really tiny anymore, and so I, you know, I have 10 NDP screens and instead of trying to make my screen smaller, like my Mac Studio is connected to four screens and I just move, I look over here and I look over there, and I and I'm so used to it. Now, when I go traveling and I have one screen, I'm like, how does anyone live this way? Like on one screen? You know it's, and so the but I think that you know, I think if, but but left to my own devices. You know, if I was coming and sitting down at a desk every day, I would use it and I wasn't doing graphics. I would absolutely use a Mac Mini, because you can define what those are.

20:45
And again, like, for instance, for me, I buy arms.

20:48
You know, I buy dual arms for my, my desks, that's all I use, and it's just so nice to grab this monitor and pull it to where I want it and push it back to where I need it.

20:57
You know, and and those are the kind of things that you don't get with with all these all in one. And I'm like, I mean, I do have some PCs and I don't. I have little ones, like tiny little ones, like this one here, and so we'll meet, may lay or whatever, but I also have some larger gaming ones and it's just so hard to deal with, like I'm like this huge box that I have to move around and figure out where to put and everything else, and so so I really like the, the compact nature of these and the amount of power. Again, they were underpowered for a long time, like the Mac Minis were so underpowered that they were just kind of glue, and now they're like real machines. So I I don't know, I don't. I had a Mac the last I bought, the last Mac that came out, and I was very happy with it, but I would never go back.

21:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So you have now, jason, an M3 base model in that iMac, and did they send you an M3 Macs in the M3 Macs maxed out in the Mac, in the Mac 40 GPU Macs.

21:53 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yep, that's the 14, 14.

21:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So you have opposite ends of the. No, he has a 16.

21:58 - Jason Snell (Host)
I don't have, I don't have the 16, and although you can get all the high end in the 14 or the 16, it doesn't matter. And this is not the base model because they wouldn't send that to me right? I'm a reviewer. They sent me the, you know, a decently specced but all the iMacs have just M3 base Just just the M3, they have not put an M3.

22:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And so the only spec differences are RAM and and hard drive right.

22:20 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, and, and I think that there's a binned core or binned GPU, like in that, but yeah.

22:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I guess the reason I'm asking is there seems to be a much broader golf between the M3 Macs and the M3 base model than there was in the M1 and M2.

22:39 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yes, although I would say it's even with the pro, like the, the the Macs it has is a lot faster than its predecessors, in a way that the pro based on some early benchmarks that we've seen and the and the low end M3 are that there seems to be that the M3 Macs is where Apple really kind of poured in, the put their foot on the floor. There are more decoders, there are more encoders, there are more GPU cores. The cores are more, you know, optimized, like that's. That's the place where it feels like you compare, so like I've got a Mac mini with an M1 Macs in it and the M3 Macs is so much faster than the M1 Macs that it makes me really sad about my amazing M1 Macs. Mac studio.

23:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I have an M1 Macs Macs studio as well. So you're telling me I'm going to be sad.

23:28 - Jason Snell (Host)
I think that's the place where it's going to hurt. I think the first time where somebody buying a Mac with Apple Silicon in it is going to feel like a little pain to buy a new Apple Silicon chip is M1 Macs users in the M3 Macs. But it all depends on what you're doing with it. I just I had that moment where I was running a whisper you know whisper AI speech to text transcription and I was wondering on my Mac studio and I was wondering why it was so slow. I was like what was it slow before? Why was it slow? And then I realized, oh, the last two of these I did. I did on the MacBook Pro with the M3 Macs and I had that moment where I thought, oh, oh, no, I felt how slow it is. My M1 Macs now feels slower.

24:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I have been saying how fast I felt like my M1 Macs was and how I will never need anything more.

24:19 - Jason Snell (Host)
And that's the truth is. The truth is that the real upgrades are coming from Intel. More like you know, more than half of the Mac user base is still on Intel. Right, Like there are a lot of Upgraders to be brought over.

24:30
But if you're somebody who is and this is what I always say about like, should you upgrade? If you're somebody whose job it is to do stuff that requires the most computing power possible, because you're doing an in code or you're doing an AI translation or whatever it is one of those things, or you're a developer and you're waiting for Xcode, and if you get a faster computer, you're waiting for less time and working for more time. You'll know who you are and the M3 Macs is totally for you. But for most people like even for me, I mean, the truth is I have an M2 MacBook Air that I work on a lot of the time and I can do my entire job on that too. The only place where it is behind the M1 Macs is that some of those tasks that on the one computer take four minutes, on the other computer take 10 minutes and you're just like, all right, I guess I'll wait, because that's the price I pay for being on a MacBook Air instead of a Mac Studio.

25:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
One thing I did think was interesting is the M3 Macs on the MacBook Pro isn't that much faster than an M1 Ultra? I mean, would you get the highest M1, the M1 Ultra? Look, these are Andrew Cunningham's benchmarks. You did quite a few too. I don't want to, but he has a team, I'm sure, and so they do a lot of testing and the Ultra actually is not so bad. On the Mac Studio, the M1 Ultra.

25:54 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, it varies though, because there's a new Cinebench test. I've been using Cinebench for a long time. It very clearly uses ray tracing and mesh shading. Oh well there you go. And it's like 200% faster, like it's bananas and that's like perfectly crafted for the changes that Apple made, but otherwise, yeah, otherwise you're getting those kind of like whatever it's the usual chip generation 15, 20%, depending on what you're measuring kind of efficiency.

26:19
It's just there's more happening. The more performance cores and GPU cores means that the Macs is separating itself because they poured in all of those extra performance cores Right.

26:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it feels as if the Mac Pro is really now an orphan.

26:37 - Jason Snell (Host)
I don't know. I mean the Mac Pro. Presumably there'll be an M3 Ultra and they'll put it in the high end studio and they'll put it in the Mac Pro and it will be real that M3 Ultra is going to be real fast. And I think we, unless they do something like they were rumored to be thinking of a while ago but didn't do, which was do a thing above the Ultra, that's like a quad Max chip essentially. But unless they do something like that, the Mac Pro is just and again a Mac Studio with PCI slots.

27:09 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Exactly I mean, and more Thunderbolts lanes Right, and so if you need that connectivity and there are people like me that need I haven't bought one yet because I cobbled that all together with a bunch of Mac minis and a bunch of Sonnet boxes and everything else. But if I was going to build that again, I would definitely do it, because you can start just dropping cards into the actual machine. You don't have all the other IO stuff that you would deal with otherwise, and so I do think that there are people who, especially if you're a video professional or you have things that require audio professional, video professional you need processor cards, you need the extra lanes of Thunderbolt. The Studio I'm sorry the Pro provides a key part of an overall ecosystem. There was a time when I thought that I was just going to have to leave the Mac for some of the higher end stuff that we do just because of that IO problem, and so I think that it's important that Apple keeps it in there, even if it's going to be a semi-mitch market.

28:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Do you think that it's a little more tricky to buy an M3, jason than it was the Pro? And even the low end Macs have less memory bandwidth, for instance. Do you see that showing up as an issue?

28:21 - Jason Snell (Host)
Well, I don't have the Pro so I don't know. But yeah, they did lower the memory bandwidth a little bit.

28:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're doing weird things Well they're differentiating.

28:29 - Jason Snell (Host)
The Pro used to be for the M1 and the M2, the Pro was a chop what they call it of the Macs. They basically designed one chip and then the Pro was the top part of it and the Macs was all of it and, as a result, they had lots of things in common, a lot of CPU cores in common, but not GPU cores and not all the video encoders and like it was a little bit different. Now it's a completely different thing.

28:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you look at the pictures, yeah, there's a significant size difference.

28:53 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, and they've got three memory controllers. So that's why it's like 18 gigs of RAM or 36 instead of that's weird too .6. It's weird because it's all multiples of 3. We'll get used to it, yeah, and that's how you get the. I think it's 150 for memory bandwidth, whereas with the Ultra it's 200. And that's differentiation. It sounds like the whole idea here is most people don't need the power of the max and they are going to buy the pro anyway. Right, and the people who absolutely need the power of the max. That's the one where Apple's like okay, we spared no expense. You could cue the Richard Kylie voice, we spared no expense. And here it is, and that's how they're differentiating them, Instead of pro being like Max's little brother. Now, pro is a mid-range chip for people, For most I would say most buyers.

29:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is how it's going to be going forward. They've sorted it out. It really wasn't reflective in M1M2. This is what you expect going forward.

29:51 - Jason Snell (Host)
Almost like they're getting up to speed with Apple Silicon with this right.

29:55
Like they did the first two generations and they're like okay, how many chips can we make? We're already making an iPhone chip, how many chips can we make? And they're like well, we're going to make this M1. That's like a variant of the iPad, it's like the A16X or whatever. It's like what we were already making for the iPad. We're going to do a version of that. It's like a little spiffed out version of the iPhone chip for the iPad and for the low-end Max, and then we'll make a performance chip. And that was the Max and then chopped, it was the pro, and they did that because they were getting started right. But now we're in Wave 3 and it does feel like they're ready for the next thing, where they're like yeah, we can design three different, entirely different chips. Now, in fact, in some ways, the pro looks it's definitely in between right. It looks a little bit like the M3 in some ways and like the M3 Max in other ways. It's just a mid-range. They've gone good, better. Best on us again.

30:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So let me reframe it then, because Andrew Cunningham says it's the least straightforward generation. It isn't. It's just that we had expectations based on M1 and M2 and we have to rethink our expectations because this is what it's really going to be and actually, if you understand that, then it's a little easier, frankly, to see what you want in M3 and M3 Pro and M3 Max. Right, or am I wrong?

31:13 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, I think differentiation is good, right. I think these are more different.

31:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's more clearly differentiated.

31:18 - Jason Snell (Host)
yes, More clearly what you like and what you pay for. And it's not as much before it really did feel like, well, pro is Pro, max, well, it's sort of, but kind of not, and they're just a little. And now it's like, no, there's good, better best.

31:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just wanted.

31:31 - Jason Snell (Host)
And the prices are very clearly different.

31:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, Big difference in price. I just wanted 90 billion transistors. I just wanted that. Christina Warren was on Twitter on Sunday and we both looked at each other and she said, yeah, I really should just buy a Chromebook but and I said, yeah, I don't. I'm browsing the web and answering email, but I want a Max. It's bragging rights, totally. Then there are people like Alex who will really use the all the horsepower, and then some. But you know, it's interesting as we do more things with AI Boy. I was really interested to watch. Yesterday, Jason Howell and Jeff Jarvis did the Open AI keynote at their Dev conference. What a bunch of announcements. More and more we're going to be running AI models on our machines and having powerful NPUs. Apple did not talk about tops speeds, though, did they?

32:27 - Jason Snell (Host)
They didn't do tops, they didn't do flops, they didn't do Right, like they are very focused on sort of like human scale things for marketing, but as we do more and more AI, tops are what matters Total operations per second or Well, right, but it's not that they don't have it, it's that it's not a part of their marketing. They do have it.

32:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And I guess we'll find out at some point what we're talking about. So what? I guess? My point is that some of us you're doing whisper AI Now that's a very heavy AI task and the speed makes a big difference to you. Yeah it is. Yeah, it is.

33:04 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, and it's still, I mean, although it's so early, but yes, there are Like the whisper. Ai is fascinating and there's now a new model.

33:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm actually looking to see where these are oh, these new models are 128,000 nodes.

33:16 - Jason Snell (Host)
So whisper, like it's got a version that's in Python, but then there's also a version that this guy has done that he ported to C so it runs really fast there. And then that guy is trying to get it to work on OpenCL, but they're also trying to get it to work on Neural Engine. And there's a question of, like, what's the most efficient? Like depending on what system you're on, you might be better throwing it at the GPU or at the Neural Engine or at the CPU. It really like depends. And it's so early days that it's almost like you need to get a different build and like figure out which one works on this computer and then you go to a different computer and it's a totally different story. But you're right, in the end some amount of compute like those are.

33:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We may be using more compute than we anticipate, even as average everyday users, because of AI alone.

34:04 - Jason Snell (Host)
Every single thing that I cite as being a reason why I have a Mac Studio with an M1 Macs is ML based, right, because I bought it for like Isotope, which is an audio plugin that does, and that's using your M1. D-reverb and D-noise, and the D-reverb is a machine learning model that's pulling Echo out of a room and then, yeah, something like the whisper transcript. It's ML. So you know you're either using all your CPU cores or all your GPU cores or all your Neural Engine cores, depending on what it is. But yeah, that's. It does change the game a little bit in terms of needing more. If you're going to work on your computer and not in the cloud, you're going to need more. Everybody likes to say grunt. Now You're going to need more grunt on the desktop.

34:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And Alex, you know not a lot of people do photogrammetry, but as Vision Pro comes out and more and more people want to do things with 3D models, maybe that's going to become more commonplace. So we are using more horsepower. I wouldn't have thought this, but we are using more horsepower. We need more horsepower.

35:00 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
When you're processing some of the images, when you start shooting 48 megapixel images with your iPhone.

35:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Big images, things start.

35:06 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
In big video. I mean you're shooting 4K. I mean, if you attach a hard drive now to your iPhone 15, you can now capture 4K60. And that's just a lot of data. You know, it's in ProRes and that's going to be a lot of data. It's going to fill up your drives, but it's also going to be something that when you want to edit it, you need to really have a lot of drive speed. You need to have, you know, a lot of stuff there. So I think that it is. There is a place where that's going to pressure and I think that Apple has to keep on. Part of it is keeping everybody in the corral. I think that that's. The issue is that the Pro and the Studio and the Pro, you know, keep the Pros using Mac stuff at the high end or at the high R end. There's still stuff above that that we need to use other machines for.

35:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But the Even in the scary fast event, though, apple pinpointed new kinds of Pros. It's not the Pros that we've been talking about, all along with logic and final cut, I mean it's, you know, imaging, people doing radiology and things. It's all kinds of Pros.

36:07 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Medical imaging yeah, absolutely, and all of those take a lot of. You know you have a lot of people sitting around waiting to look at how that process is going to work. Those heavy math, heavy you know a lot of those things are things that are very and it's something that Apple actually, you know, really did well for a long time and then kind of went through a kind of a middle space where a lot of people started moving to PCs because they just needed more power. And I think that there is a really interesting intersection still with the fact that the CPU and the GPU are sharing the RAM. But there are some. Some of those computations are going to be easier to do on a Mac than almost anywhere else. Because of that, you can put an enormous amount of RAM and then hand it to the video processor.

36:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Talk to me about memory bandwidth. So the M3 base model is 100 gigabytes per second, the M3 Pro is 150 gigabytes per second, and there's two flavors of M3 Max. One does 300 gigabytes a second. One does 400 gigabytes a second. This is the first time, by the way, the Max has been, you know, at two different speeds. Who needs that and how much do we need? Can we even know ahead of time what we're going to need? It's not like we're just still doing browsing and word processing.

37:21 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It's things that are memory intensive, and what I mean by that is that you have to hold the things that don't need. That are things that don't require a lot of things to be held in RAM.

37:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So if I had a lot of RAM?

37:31 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
memory bandwidth is less important If you no, no, no, actually, if you have a lot of RAM, you probably need memory, a lot of memory bandwidth, because it means if you get a lot of RAM, you're going to be moving things on and off of that RAM. You're going to be moving more things into RAM and then pulling them back. So you probably it matters in both cases, but the bottom line is, if you have a lot of RAM, you're moving a lot of things into RAM. You're working with those things in RAM and the faster that is, the faster your overall process is going to get Like we this is not quite related to RAM, but like one of the things we know, like when we do compression.

38:05
Like if I'm compressing a video, I know that a huge portion of the compression time is actually my drive speed. It's not Like if you're compressing a file, you think, oh, I don't need to worry about it because I'm compressing it, and you go, let's say, to a spinning drive, which no one should use at this point. But you're going to a spinning drive. It's really going to be. Your compression time is going to take a long time just from the right, and so having those read and writes happening at a very, very high speed means that you're getting through that, sometimes the, and a lot of times you have to look at it. But sometimes your CPU and your GPU, especially your GPU, are being throttled by how fast the data can come to them from the RAM. So the speed of the RAM makes a big difference.

38:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think my main point here is that we don't yet know what a normal user needs, because the definition of normal has changed.

38:57 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, and also I'm not even sure that Apple's really going to be prioritizing these pro-level models in the future, Like particularly in a lot of the comments that came in through the Q&A during the earnings call last week. We'll be talking about the earnings call later.

39:10
Yeah, that's next, yeah, but they're really talking more about how we just want to get people and once we get them, we can basically they can stay got by us, continue to sell them pretty much anything that they're in a strew and having, whether it's a streaming service, whether it's AirPods, whether it's AirPods, whether it's an iPad and an iPhone. They're less about. Let's maintain high performance, really expensive stuff at high margins, so much as let's just make sure that once we get a customer, they're not buying a $10,000 computer once every three or four years and then in four years they buy whatever else they need. It could be a Mac. It could not be that they're more interested in acquiring the customers that are just always, always, always.

39:56
For the next 10 years, we'll be making at least eight purchases a year, not including subscriptions. So that's. It's just got me wondering, particularly given the amount of power that even a baseline Apple Silicon chip is giving, whether their, their heart is now still into the idea of saying we are interested in selling super high performance machines that you can't get elsewhere. We are interested that we want the NOAA to do their weather models on on Apple Silicon, we are interested in on laptops no, no, no, but, but, but, but, but, but, no, no, but they even.

40:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, look at the speed of these things. He's amazing.

40:34 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It's, it's, it's certainly up there, but again, we're looking. We're looking at things that are still like high end consumer maybe, like they can be aspirational consumer as opposed to. I mean, just think about how things were just five years ago, where I've got, I've got a, I've got a, I've got a rendering station that's got 51 Xeon processors and requires its own, its own fusion reactor in order to power it, because no grid can possibly do all this GPU performance that that this thing is is capable of. We are seeing more of the mainstream stuff and less of the less of this investment in the high end stuff.

41:06
Think of, think about how the wasn't it, the wasn't the Mac Pro, the very, very last Mac to get Apple Silicon and they could have if they felt, I feel. I feel as though if they felt as though these really impressive, you cannot get a faster machine like this. The people who are at the top layer of elegance, of number crunching, want a machine like this. If that were a really, really big point of pride or point of commercial import for them, they would have found a way to say we're going to, we're going to make sure that the first Mac processors we're going to have a gang of 12 of them. We're going to have a gang of 16 of them. We will make sure you can do a BTO of this, so we'll kick the butt of anything else that's on the planet. And they didn't do that. They waited until they had. Okay, we can do a rational version of the Mac Pro by by waiting until we have this Silicon ready. So I'm just wondering.

41:53 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I just want, I still think it's go ahead. I still think it's part of keeping everybody in the in the corral. So you know you want to hang on to everybody before until they get to a certain level. So I think that there I agree with you that there's not going to be a. They're not going to focus on it the same way they're focusing on the Mac books. You know they're not going to focus on the same way that they do. You know some of those things or iPads, but but I think that that the studio and the pro keep pros and in it. You know again, it keeps people in the.

42:19
If people see a lot of people using PCs at the higher end or people talk about it all the time, well, I can't use a Mac for that. You know it. It there is an aspirational part of you're buying into something and you know that you could grow into that process. You could grow into it and there's still be these really high end ones that you could grow to. I think that is important for the overall ecosystem, that they have to keep on supporting it. But I do agree with you that's not the core of what they're doing and I think that it probably won't move as fast as it could, but I mean, the M ones have given it a huge advantage in those areas. But I think that, but I think that they have to exist there. If it stopped at the, if it stopped at the Mac MacBook pros, there's a whole bunch of people that do need something faster and they start using it and they start getting comfortable with windows and next thing you know, they're buying windows laptop.

43:04 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, well, yeah, but again, but that's you know. You know more than this, more about this than I do. So this is a good question for me to ask, like when you have I'm talking about, I'm talking about the stuff like 6,000, 7,000, 8,000, 10,000 dollar workstations that used to be a lot more competitive. I think that they were now. Like when you, when, when you see, when you think of somebody who's got a $10,000 budget they've been approved $10,000 because they need the one of these big heavy irons Are they necessarily going to be thinking well, I'm a Mac guy, I love Macs, I've really loved Mac.

43:33
I got an Apple watch, I've got an iPhone. I'm going to spend this $10,000 on they, the, the, the best Mac pro. They go up the, the, I'm sorry, just close it off. Or or do they simply say I've got $10,000. Here are my academic needs for what this thing needs to do and the software that can run on this. Aren't they willing to switch to a different platform If they? If they're saying that I'm building this basically for this one job, I need to have done this. One category of stuff I need to get done is loyalty, as much of a thing as it is at the $10,000 level as it is on the three or $4,000 level it can be.

44:04 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I mean, there are definitely people who just don't want to deal with it. I mean there's a, there's a certain overhead, like like. For instance, a good example, and we were just talking about this in office hours this morning the windows update is extremely disruptive to production. So the fact that windows will let you delay it, but unless you get the enterprise level or whatever, at some point it's going to force an update and that update will break a bunch of your stuff, you know, especially if you're in production, in production pipelines and you're building those things. And so for some people that they don't want to ever be forced to do an update, they want to say I want to do the update every six months or every whenever I feel like it, and that becomes a really the point of contention, you know, for for them is to have something forcing them to run an update, and so those are kinds of things that they get frustrated with.

44:47
And then some people just don't like PCs. Now, a lot of that has to do with lack of exposure. So what you would kind of be careful of is making sure they don't have lack of exposure, or they continue to have lack of exposure with PCs so they don't get. So when they open them up, they're like what, the what you know, and you want to keep the what, the what going on, you know, for folks that are on the on the Mac side. But if you start letting them, you know, pull it, you know, become cross platform and so on, so forth, and they get comfortable with it. And then again they're like well, I better get a laptop this way because I'm used to, because then I can integrate this better and everything else it does affect it. And it's more important that they are the high end friends that their other friends look, you know like, and they're and they're you're seeing behind the scenes of them using them in movies and there's a lot of like glow.

45:28
That happens with a high end. It's why you have, why you build F1. It's why you do you know like, when we talk about these. You know like there's aspirational things that we do with our cars or with other things that are, that people feel like they're part of something bigger. And if they stop feeling like that, you know it can. It can affect the entire downstream of how people look at it. If they just look at Apple is like the little thing, but I will say that at $10,000, I think Apple is very competitive. I think one of the reasons they dropped the $60,000 version of the Mac Pro and they're now capped at $12,000. I think at $12,000, except for when you need specific things like NVIDIA you know Apple makes very, very competitive hardware up to the number, up to that top end of what they're doing, and then when you go over that, I don't think Apple was very competitive.

46:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And they don't care. Probably, right, that's a very tiny market.

46:19 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
That's a really small market and that's not. That's a really esoteric market.

46:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I got to point out, though, that that laptop that Jason Snall has in his hand sells for $7,200.

46:30 - Jason Snell (Host)
It is not yeah no, it's a high end laptop. Let's take a break. I want to take a break because I want to find out how black, how black you can get for $7,200.

46:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But we got a great panel to talk about this. Jason Snall has the new iMac and the new high end Mac book pro in his hands. We'll talk more about that. Apple's earnings came out. What can we glean from that? One of the ways Apple's improving earnings is by raising prices and all the things We'll talk about that. Alex Lindsey's here, andy and I go our show today, brought to you by ZockDoc.

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I've used it for a couple of things. I used it for family members. I was looking for a gerontologist for my mom, somebody but you know people. Specialized geriatric medicine is few and far between. Found a great one with great reviews, zockdoc. Thank you, zockdoc. Let's see how. It's not that black. So I'm wearing a black blazer in honor of your black MacBook. It's not that black. Let me hold up my sleeve to the MacBook. And actually you did a good thing, jason, you were able to. The keyboard is black. When you look at the keyboard next to the finish, you could see that in fact it's dark gray.

49:56 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, yeah, because it's a black background on the keyboard. Isn't that nice, yeah, and then you can see the contrast it is. Look, it's dark gray. It's the darkest pro laptop Apple has made since the Wall Street, basically right Way back when, or whatever the Wall Street back in. When was that? I don't even know 2001, 2000,. Like the one before the titanium? Yeah, because they made the black polycarbonate.

50:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's a powerbook G3.

50:26 - Jason Snell (Host)
Let's put it that way that was the pro, but the powerbook G3, the Wall Street that was the last pro black laptop. This is the darkest laptop they made since then because they went silver with the titanium powerbook right G4. And then that was the end of it. And when it's in like general lighting, like in my house, because it's been laying around my house for the last five, six days you could tell it is darker, like space gray. I feel like if you don't have a silver one around, it's very easy to start thinking that the space gray is silver and then you see a silver one, you go, oh, it's a little bit lighter. This one you would not mistake for silver. It is appreciably darker and that's great for people who want a darker laptop. It's probably the color space gray should have been but wasn't. But it's here now. I just you know it's that thing of like it's not as dark as the midnight blue.

51:12
That's the funny thing, it's not as dark as the midnight MacBook Air. It definitely isn't. And it's not as dark as my like. I took a picture in my review of the air the space back, black pro and a black anodized aluminum Samsung SSD right and it's like, oh well, that's black. That's what black looks like. And yeah, I did also get a stack where I put all the like laptop colors on top of each other.

51:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Now, the other thing that's a big issue on the midnight MacBook Air is fingerprints, and they claim they've. It's funny that Apple obliquely referred to that by saying oh, and this time we've anodized it. Is it better? Yeah?

51:47 - Jason Snell (Host)
Well, no, I mean, it's all. All their aluminum is anodized, but they changed the anodization seal, they say chemically, in order to reduce repel oil and liquid.

51:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is that image you talked about. This is the Samsung black SSD, yeah, the midnight MacBook Air on the right, and this is the so-called black MacBook pro. It's not not even close.

52:10 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's not and that's okay, but it is dark and the fingerprint the fingerprint repelling it's darker. I know there are people who like dark laptops and it gets you closer to your goal while not getting you there right.

52:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's the endless frustration of it.

52:27 - Jason Snell (Host)
But, but yeah, the fingerprint is true it's, it's better. It's not perfect, because nothing's perfect. Again, they just try to go in that direction. But yeah, it repels fingerprints better. I have that, my midnight MacBook Air, and I love it. This thing I've been carrying around, you know, for the last six days and like it's got marks on it and stuff a little bit, but like you can't, like you have to make an effort and they wipe off pretty easily too. So it's a, it's a win. They are, they are progressing.

52:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I put a black. I put a Vanta black $12 case on my midnight MacBook Air and now it's black. And then I put a rainbow Apple logo on it to really confuse people.

53:06 - Jason Snell (Host)
That's the way you do it. That's that's how I do it.

53:08 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I was I was gonna say if they, if Apple made a true Vanta black, like they partnered with Vanta and made the true Vanta black, and they charge an extra two or $300.

53:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So many, they would sell it.

53:21 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
They already have like project red for this, for for that charity. What charity would they link up with for a project black line?

53:32 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
of products.

53:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Do you have you had enough time with the 16 inch Jason to say it's worth all the $7,200 that you didn't spend?

53:48 - Jason Snell (Host)
I mean it is you're. No, you know if you're that person right, can you tell?

53:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
let me ask you this Can you tell it's that fast, like can you? Could you sit down on it and go whoa, whoa. Um finder really snappy.

54:03 - Jason Snell (Host)
Well, no, I mean you user interface stuff is snappy.

54:06
My M2 MacBook Air is incredibly snappy in that way too, it's got the snappy but. But I did have that situation where my whisper transcripts were just flying and then I went back to my, my M1 max processor, which is very fast, and it felt it took it longer, it felt slower. So I think that, and then anything again, it's one of those things where, once you start to get into the, the Texture mapping, the mesh shading and the and the ray tracing and all of that, where it's really killing the GPU, you will. You will see it.

54:40
But yeah, you have to work really hard, which is why you know, if you want to buy a seven thousand dollar laptop because you are somebody who absolutely destroys GPU or CPU or both when you're doing your job and you want that thing to take ten minutes instead of twenty or or two minutes Instead of five every single time, and that's who's gonna buy it. And that's why it's differentiated from the approach it because, like most people aren't the seven thousand dollar laptop and good news, you can get one with approach it starting at two thousand dollars. It's much more reasonable if you don't need Mac Pro level performance.

55:16 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
So it's differentiate, and you know, and for me, in some cases, it's one day instead of three days, in fact. In fact, jason, I would like to send you a test file, if you, if you're.

55:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh god, how long you have that send it to me because I'm getting the 14. Okay, I'll send. I'll send you the have you ever like this, fans to spin up at all. Jason.

55:40 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, oh, so funny story. So one of the things that I got, I added a suggestion. A little helpful suggestion for Apple was if you want, you could. You could run your benchmark test In high power mode. So they asked added high power mode? Last year it was in the 16 only now it is also in the 14. If you have the max, is it in the settings? It is in settings, and what? What is high power mode? Well, I power mode just tells the fans to spin it as as hard as they can really so basically Just say the fans yeah, that's what it is.

56:10
That's what it is that there is a limit to the fans, after which, in normal mode, after which they'll just throttle down the processors Because they're trying to keep it in down without making it sound like you're using a hairdryer. In High power mode they're like hairdryer Ahoy, let's just do it. And, honestly, I did a bunch of game stuff and a bunch of GPU tests and the fans spun up but it wasn't so bad. And then, but in high power mode, I did this one test that was an intense CPU test, so it was. It was all those cores were going, all the CPU cores, and the fans just went and up, they went into into high power mode and then it was.

56:51
It was noisy, but I don't know, your mileage may vary. I have heard from some people who say that on, if you play games long enough, you know the fans are gonna go and they're annoyed by it. The fans exist to let computers run hot. That's just how it is. But I only got the like wild fan noise by turning on high power mode and doing, like I said, a CPU based test, because I think the, for whatever reason, the GPUs, gpus run hot right, but in this case I think it was that tightly packed a bunch of CPU cores that were really thrown off the heat.

57:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You also have 40 GPUs on there.

57:29 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, they can spread the load pretty well. It's hard to hard to fill them up. And yeah, in history I'd say with Apple Silicon, what I've learned over the course of testing a bunch of Apple Silicon systems is the fans really come into play when there's something that is hitting everything right, something that is really pushing the GPUs and the CPUs, because usually the cooling can keep up with one or the other. But once you you're like hammering both of them, then that's when it starts to get real hot and that's when high power mode will make your ears sad but your computer fast.

58:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Did you have to plug it in to get a different performance, or is it matter? No?

58:05 - Jason Snell (Host)
no, no, the Apple prides themselves on. You can set high power mode to be in battery or or plugged in and change its behavior. But Everything that you can do plugged in you can do in battery and that's just an Apple Phil's. That's why they have those charts. They brag about it that that they don't enable higher performance characteristics. When you're plugged in, you can do everything on battery that you can do when you're plugged in.

58:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, I Think we have a. Is there anything more to say about either the iMac or the MacBook Pro?

58:44 - Jason Snell (Host)
What are we looking?

58:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
for what will what? What benchmarks or reports Will we be looking for before we make our decisions on this hardware? What is what is going to put you over the top? And actually I'm asking the IFC this as well as you guys. What do you? What are you looking at? You gotta look at my review.

58:59 - Jason Snell (Host)
That's very important, for sure. Six colors, calm yeah. And I want to personally I want to see what the pro numbers look like from somebody who got a pro system, because the that pro chip is going to be what most people, I think, buy in a MacBook Pro and your reviewers didn't thousands. I knew, yeah, and it's yeah. It's interesting one that almost everybody's gonna buy they didn't sell it, send it to reviewers.

59:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They only sent the high-end maxes. You said somebody got it, somebody got it. Show the biggest.

59:26 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, the verge got a low-end one and then I got the low-end, you know m3, because I got an iMac but like, yeah, the pro, I think I think those numbers are going to be the least impressive, right, because it's actually got Fewer performance scores and even though it's going to pick up something based on the dye shrink and the generational improvements, it's going to not blow you away and like what, what, what? What review systems does Apple send out to reviewers? The ones that'll blow you away? Right, that's because it makes them look at the best and that's what they want to do. So I want to see that pro system and see what the quirks of that are. And then you know, honestly, the thing that excites me the most is, if you're not in them, you know, in the market for a new MacBook Pro, think about this if you're in the market for a new Mac next year, that the performance profile of that iMac over my shoulder. That's also the performance profile of the m3 MacBook Air. It's the performance profile of the m3 Mac mini, right, because all these chips are basically the same. So that's the thing to potentially get excited about is, you know what is? What is your next MacBook Air? Look like You'll save about $800 by getting a pro instead of a max.

01:00:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the differential in the chip. You'll also be able to pick it up today. Those pros are not selling out, whereas a lesson of being patient the max was delayed.

01:00:43 - Jason Snell (Host)
They actually announced this is gonna ship. Yeah, right away, because they were 22nd right now.

01:00:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, they're pushed out, so I you never know. I mean that could be that there aren't very many of them, or it could be. The demand is high, we just don't. There's no way of knowing.

01:01:00 - Jason Snell (Host)
No, it was. They made the announcement, so it was in the.

01:01:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
the delay was in the announcement, yeah, so they don't have them.

01:01:03 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's the answer.

01:01:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They didn't have.

01:01:06 - Jason Snell (Host)
They didn't have them in volume right enough to say what these will be, shipping next week.

01:01:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They said these will be shipping later in November probably a question of yields at TSMC, for that gotta be, gotta be, yeah we can only make so many to get a lot of flawed chips, but I go right down to our local Apple store and pick up a pro right now. Let me see if I do a BTO On Friday. Right no says today at.

01:01:29 - Jason Snell (Host)
Apple.

01:01:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Santa Rosa Plaza, really yeah.

01:01:32 - Jason Snell (Host)
Oh, they are now. Okay, they got it now.

01:01:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Run and get it, run and get it. No, mine's supposed to come today.

01:01:40 - Jason Snell (Host)
Mine's on the truck, nice, but so let's just do a BTO and yeah once you start doing BTO.

01:01:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is it a pro or is it a max? What?

01:01:48 - Jason Snell (Host)
is it? I have a max coming today? Oh, it's, of course you do Only the best. Only you know what it's a personality. It is my chef's kiss.

01:02:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It is a personality flaw that comes from reading the William Gibson novel Neuromancer, because he had a laptop is all beat up. I don't know if you remember the book. I was trying to find the passage. I couldn't. I bought it in like five different editions.

01:02:14 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's one of my favorite. Remember he had a beat up old laptop but it had like all the world's knowledge on it.

01:02:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right and I think he could jack into it. I think I think you could. It was a course again, of course. Now I don't think I'll be able to jack into this, but I do think it will. It will satisfy. I'm trying to get that deck, the neuromancer.

01:02:40 - Jason Snell (Host)
So so when, when we say that there's the classic marketing ploy of good, better, best, because most people come into the store Because they see the price for good and then they and, but then they're like well, and they get better and everybody makes more money, then Leo walks into the store and he's like away with it.

01:02:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Bring me your fun. For me, bring me your best. Well, it's clear that they offer an eight gigabyte Macintosh pro with expecting that no one will buy it. I hope.

01:03:06 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, that's. That's an instant $200 upgrade.

01:03:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yep, yeah and they know that. And then and once you do the 200, you've loosened the wallet a little bit. You blew them dust out in the moths flow way at 1799.

01:03:17 - Jason Snell (Host)
You could really just go to 1999, and then you get a little more memory and you get the pro chip right. Yeah, they're no fools. It's why they got all the money.

01:03:28
They sure do I talked to people sometimes like man, I wish Apple stuff wasn't as expensive, and I'd be like, I mean, have you seen Apple? They've been playing this game my whole my, my whole adult life, which is it's all a little too expensive and that's why they have so much. I mean, you know we're gonna talk about their financials in a little bit. You know they may they. I'll tell you what number went up year over year profit and they're still throwing out $20 billion in profit every quarter.

01:03:58 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
So that's why that stuff like that is why they built a huge campus without a single right angle in it. You think they did that by Not maximizing profit revenue per customer. I think they did.

01:04:10 - Jason Snell (Host)
And.

01:04:10 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I think that also one of the big advantages they have is for the market that they serve. They they're unconstrained. They're not not as constrained by budget. You know, and I think that you know I often that you know so a lot of times things work really well on it with an Apple piece of hardware because they didn't worry about how much that was going to cause. Or I will charge a little bit more or we'll do a little bit. There's a lot of flexibility. You know, I always think that you know the, you know Amazon, you know it's, it's your, your margin is our opportunity. At Apple. It's more like your stinginess is our opportunity, like wherever you cut corners, you know we can just put that back in and people will. There's a, there's a subset, small subset, that will buy that. You know like that will buy into that and they just want it to work. You know, and I think that that's the, that's the advantage that they have.

01:04:55 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
No, without without getting into a long discussion about it. I'm glad that there are lots of manufacturers who are for serving a very wide range of people. Because I pads are great, I would never. There's no other tablet that I would ever consider using. I don't think that any other tablet that is even worth using that's better than a pad of paper pretty much. However, there are a whole bunch of people for whom, look, I don't need an even good tablet. I need a $60 color tablet that I can put in the backseat of the car, that if the kid drops it, if the kid pours orange juice on it, it almost doesn't matter, because I can get another one. So I'm glad that there are people that are that are making $30 phones, people are making $80 tablets and people are making $200 laptops $300 PC that I have here.

01:05:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What is that who?

01:05:42 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
makes that.

01:05:43
This is Mele. Make this a quieter free cue or something like that. I use this as as glue. I use it so I can listen to after hours, actually like on a computer here, and and it's it is. It is a you know and I have. When we we had to buy by a bunch of zoom controllers for nine computers, and what do we do? We went out and bought a bunch of I don't know Samsung tablets that were $110 each, to exactly Andy's point. So I am, I'm not, you know, it's not like we, we make decisions about what those are. Apples advantage is that they don't. They can go down that path, but I'm, I'm, I'm with Andy, I'm very glad. In fact, I wish Apple would go down a little bit further on stuff that like, like, what I really want is an Arduino or Raspberry Pi kind of thing, but that ties into the Apple ecosystem. That is just like I can. I can, I could have shortcuts and that shortcut sends actual, you know, turns into electrical.

01:06:33 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I'll say again if my dream product I'm not even suggesting that this is a feasible product or that there's a lot of money in this, but if they just took the box that an Apple TV comes in and said we're going to take all of these cheap M1 processors that we don't have, that we're aging out of the system and we're going to make we're not necessarily call it a Mac, we're going to call it a something or other that only can, that can't Side load apps at all, that can only run full screen Mac apps from the App Store, and what do you think the Apple TV is?

01:07:06 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
it is, it's all the M series that they did we we've. We've hardware wise, yes but like no, it doesn't do that.

01:07:13 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I'm saying I might make full of the device you just you just lifted up is something I can't show you, because my Raspberry Pi 5 has been plugged into its own keyboard and its own monitor in the other room ever since I got it and I keep using it and using it and using it. The idea of having this bar of soap, that whenever I travel overnight I can unplug it and have this complete PC, I mean that's, I mean I think I just love the idea of these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little things that can also be kind of desktops, for just when you need that little extra push over the cliff.

01:07:43 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
The Apple TV is totally powerful enough to be a solid, absolutely little PC or a little let me little little Mac that that would run it, and it is frustrating that it's not allowed. If all they, if all they did was say guess what?

01:07:57 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
we're making a version of. Excuse me, we're making a user accessible version of Safari for the Apple TV. We don't, we don't care if you just plug it into like a cheap way, you're using your iPad as an HDMI monitor. We don't care if you're using it just to solve a quick problem on your TV or if you're actually trying to use it as like a Chromebook. Only it's like much, much better than a Chromebook that runs Apple stuff like oh my goodness get my attention.

01:08:22 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It has enough of everything to be a regular little computer for most people like doing all the things and and so it is. It's.

01:08:30 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It hurts that you can't get more with it and I thought the conventional external displays the support would be anyway.

01:08:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, the MLA is M E L E dot C N. If you want to buy one of these suckers and they're on Amazon they're on Amazon so don't get it from China. Get it from Amazon, yeah, but you can get them you can do.

01:08:51 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
they are so many couple hundred bucks. Yeah, yeah, cool. They're great little boxes.

01:08:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Interesting analyst notes. To wrap this part of the segment up from J Goldberg digits to dollars dot com, he said we have found it fascinating. Apples, the only semiconductor designer to introduce a chip this year without mentioning AI once in the product launch. Yeah, no flops, no tops. But the most significant facet of the M three launch was the fact they're launching three chips at once, not the same chip bend, three different, and that's what you show in your picture on the on your website, jason. Three different chips with differences manifest in their different die sizes. This is somewhat staggering, as we have to assume the tape out costs alone for the three close to a billion dollars.

01:09:43
Very few companies can afford this large and undertaking. And they say this is interesting because historically one of the advantages that merchant silicon films like firms like Intel and a quadcom enjoy versus internal silicon like apples is the merchant firms usually have larger R&D budgets for developing the products because they can amortize them over multiple customers. Apple has flipped that equation on its head. They are outspending the merchant vendors because of the large profit pool they enjoy in mobiles and PCs. There are almost no other companies in the world that afford to do this. I mean compare them to Dell or HP or ASUS or Lenovo? They can't. In short, the PC market is likely to remain split for a long time to come, with Apple continuing to capture the bulk of segment profitability. In fact, conditions are likely to worsen for the merchant vendors as the new entrance to the market are likely to craze price pressures for price pressures for CPUs.

01:10:47 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
You're seeing NVIDIA and AMD both announced they're going to do well, arm chips, and I think that one of the important things is the ecosystem that Apple is building with an iPhone that shoots pro res, that you know eventually what you start getting into as well. I'm going to shoot the birthday party.

01:11:02
I'm going to do something with it later and then I have to do all the stuff. But but it's driving people to buy that their new computer matters, whereas people checking email and doing Excel and doing, you know, basic web surfing and everything else, that PC that they bought in 2015 is probably as fast as they need it for the next decade, whereas the you know if they're starting to do more audio video and they're doing all these other things with their home videos and with their school videos and everything else it drives. It drives more sales than than otherwise. Yeah, there was.

01:11:33 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
there was a great one. Tim Cook's best lines from their earnings call had to do with it. There he was during the Q&A he was asked about Apple Silicon based, asking that like is this a strategic move meaning that you like to have Apple likes to build everything themselves, design everything as one's package, or is an economic move and that they can save a lot of money by doing this? Essentially say, well, lots of stuff we can build up now that we couldn't build before. But the mic vote is like I am happier today that I was yesterday, that I was last week, that we made the transition that we've made, and I see that benefit every day. No kidding, happy today that I was yesterday that I was last week.

01:12:09
Yeah, that is a giddy. That is a giddy thing from a CEO.

01:12:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It was a brilliant strategic move. There's just no question about it. Brilliant.

01:12:16 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And really hard, like it is like we have to climb three Mount Everest over the next decade and and. But we're going to do that and it has really paid off.

01:12:25 - Jason Snell (Host)
There's no other company that that could just say quick, get us that right, like you can't. It is. It is a many I mean we say years along with the M3. But consider back to the iPhone chips right, they had a decade plus run up to get to this point and at this point you know their battle is with Qualcomm and Qualcomm. You know they made their investment of their chips that were like look, we're as good as the M2 and and we'll ship next, middle of next year, and then three is announced the next week, which was maybe a little on purpose, and but it's fascinating because Qualcomm has to serve clients right, so they have to make some decisions that are not like.

01:13:03
Apple just builds chips, for they know exactly what devices are getting each one of those chips when they make it, and Qualcomm has to serve clients, so they're playing a different game. It's a. It's a challenge for Qualcomm to build the chip right. And then it's a challenge because there's this whole question about like is the PC market going to embrace arm or are they going to end up just being like?

01:13:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
and is there a PC market in the?

01:13:26 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
future. Is there even a PC market? Yeah, and the issue is that again, it's hard enough to get different departments to talk to each other and to agree on what should happen next. Having multiple companies trying to do what Apple's doing all under one house is going to be very hard like it is huge, we're all going to work together.

01:13:46
We're all working together and we're going to figure this out, and Microsoft's going to do this part and Intel's going to do this part, but those companies have a hard time agreeing with each other inside of their own company, let alone agreeing with another company on the direction, and all of them have valid reasons that they're right. It's not that they're you know, they're very smart people. It's just they're not going to agree on that and it drags out, and as it drags out, apple just keeps chunking down the path, you know, and that's the thing that they're going to have trouble with huge.

01:14:12 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
We often complain about how there are good things and bad things, about the amount of control that Apple can exert over everything, over developers, over its users, over everything, but one of them is that when they make a decision, that decision can stick. I don't think any other company could have done a CPU transition the way that they've done it now two or three different times it's. It really is like Microsoft's democracy is great, but get six people together and try to decide what restaurant you're going to, versus when it's mom and the kids. Mom says, hi, we're going to the up back steakhouse. But mom, we're going to the up back steakhouse or you can stay home and not eat, like, okay, we're going to the steakhouse. I get, yay, blooming onion.

01:14:55
Our show today. We're going to take a little break.

01:14:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Come back we will talk about the quarterly results. You'll have an opportunity to weigh in more on this in just a second. Our show today, brought to you by zip recruiter. A lot of people make this show happen. We think everybody from Jammer B and John Ashley and Benito and we got a great team. It takes a team of people to do what we do, just like it might take a team, a solid team, to make your business successful. And when it comes to hiring, I think it's really important to remember you're building your company. These are the building blocks that make or break a company. If you're hiring, how do you find the best people for your team? You should do what we do Use zip recruiter right now. You could try it free at zip recruitercom. Slash Mac break.

01:15:44
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01:16:26
To see why so many business owners and hiring managers and us frankly are thankful for zip recruiter four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. I would be very grateful if you could go to this special web address. Let him know. You heard it here zip recruitercom slash Mac break. You can try it for free. Zip recruitercom slash MacBRE a K. Zip recruiter the smartest way to hire. Thank you, zip recruiter, for supporting Mac break weekly and of course, you support us when you go to that address. Zip recruitercom slash Mac break. So one of the things I did notice that Mac sales were down quite a bit for Apple last quarter, but all in all it had a. Was it a good quarter? How can you? How do you characterize it, andy? You watch the. You listen to the earnings call.

01:17:23 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, it was. Whenever you talk about bad quarters, you're usually just talking about analysts predicted that the numbers would be this, but the numbers were lower than that and even when the numbers are saying that growth, we grew our market, we grew our profits. So mostly it was bad in the way that it was expected to be bad, that the entire market for basically max iPads everything is way, way down. However, it was still very, very profitable. It was still did, really profit up 11%.

01:17:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, that's not bad. Is that year over year Quarter? It must be year over year, I think.

01:18:00 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I think quarter over quarter over year, I think okay. But yeah, mac revenue is down 34% and they had a lot. They had a lot of word salad to explain all this.

01:18:09
They were basically put down to currency supply disruptions, unprecedented Mac, international macro economic environment and Apple calls you basically drink when they say difficult compare because they're compared to hey, when you get, when we, when we did something revolutionary, the way that everybody basically released their pent up demand to upgrade just a year or two ago, it's hard to figure out when we're going to get back on a regular drum beat of upgrades and replacements.

01:18:50 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, it bugs me that they that they called out the tough compare this time, because while it's like last year, last quarter's tough compare, they're like, oh well, you know, the factory shut down and and then we things sold later and so it's a tough compare. And if you look at the annual Mac sales, yeah, they, they're back where they were. They're a little bit up over where they were in fiscal 2020, but 21 22 were record in huge record years where they were up at like 3540 billion. And no tough compare because of factory shutdowns will really tell the actual story, which is that Apple, silicon and the pandemic sold a huge number of Macs and expanded the Mac user base and that's all good news for them, but they're not gonna you know, they're gonna go back down to 30 billion. They're not, they're not going to stay up at 50 or 40. It's, it's not a crime. I don't really understand why they tried to blame it on the factory shutdowns, because that's not really what's going on here.

01:19:45 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
That's something I don't understand, because I'm not a business reporter, that I don't know why the expectations are oh my God, we had the greatest quarter we have ever had ever. And then the next quarter is like, well, you didn't have the greatest quarter you ever had ever. Well, should we be concerned that we need a new C-suite management? No, it's because we had a great quarter. We weren't expecting it and it was a great surprise for everybody. We all had biscuits and gravy and waffles in the break room for an entire week, but now we're back to just doing really, really well. Why are you?

01:20:15 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
hurting us. I mean, I think that part of the problem I mean in general, with the stock market, is the is this whole, and Apple can be a little bit insulated from this. But if we wonder why all these companies value profit over everything and value growth over everything and are plowing their people and everything else into the ground, it's because every quarter they have to come back and say, hey, we did better than the last a quarter, a year ago, and it's just. It's an insane rat race. That is just. You know, that drives companies and I think it drives Apple less. And part of what is because they have so much profit and then they buy it, they buy their own stocks and they do dividends, and that that that is doing as much to grow their stock price, as you know, as whatever their performance is.

01:21:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Let's go to the graphs. The good news is, services have grown to. You know, iPhone, which used to be just a little more than half of revenue, is now a little less than half of revenue, but services 25% of revenue. Of course we know some of that is $18 billion from Google, but we won't.

01:21:22 - Jason Snell (Host)
Well, yeah, that's where Apple makes those Wall Street people happy and show growth is. That is that's why the services even exist.

01:21:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's our poo and that is average revenue per user.

01:21:32 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yes, absolutely, and it's true Joe's margin was was a 71% this quarter, which is bananas, and they said that was because of a different mix. And when asked about what exactly went into that mix look at Maistri, who is often a pretty direct guy, apple CFO he was like well, you know, there's a little bit from over here and a little bit there and things are different, and all of that, and it was really evasive. And I've definitely seen people since then suggest the answer may be related to Google paying them for referral for searches, and since that is kind of, you know, part of a little bit of a legal proceeding right now, maybe they just X-nay on the Google game.

01:22:19
And so instead they're just like oh, it's a different mix. You know, these things happen. It's a chunk.

01:22:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Never mind when you make a hundred billion when you make, you know, 80 or a hundred billion in services a year and a quarter of that is Google. You know that's a big, that's a big chunk and they never talk about it. They never, ever, ever, ever talk about Google in the context of their services A lot of its app store right, the 30% revenue, also a little bit, you know, encumbered these days with legal action. So I can see why they don't want to really break down with services. What services?

01:22:57 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
During the, during the call, both the prepared statements on the Q and A. There are a lot. A lot of what they're talking about services was its value in creating an active, an active customer base for their ecosystem, where, where they say, we have an install base of customers that continues to grow in a very nice space and the engagement in our ecosystem continues to grow. So a lot of what they're trying to at least communicate is that it's not just here's, here's someone who bought an iPhone, here's somebody who bought a Mac, here's someone who signed up for Apple TV plus. It's that we have people that are not necessarily like Marvel, marvel, disney fans, but if we put a product out there, we're going to that customer, is going to engage with it, not just now but also in the future. So we are spending a lot, we are getting a lot of revenue per customer and that's a good part of our balance, if I look at your graph.

01:23:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
By the way, we love our the color charts at sixcolorscom. Thank you Of a total Apple profit. It looks a little like a Calliope. There's a very pretty shade of gray, certain cadence to it.

01:23:55 - Jason Snell (Host)
I don't want that one green because of money. Money a deep, a deep, a deep crit that's not an accident.

01:24:00 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Fourth quarter is you saw that on the pre-application that you put in your pocket the current, the current quarter they're reporting the fourth quarter is usually the second largest or the third largest.

01:24:09 - Jason Snell (Host)
Next quarter will be the largest holiday quarter always the biggest, yeah, and most people talk I mean Wall Street's concerned with revenue growth and all of that. I just like calling out the total Apple profit line because 23 billion shmackers.

01:24:22
At the end of the day, let's not forget that whenever we talk about how Apple's doing, it is that they are. They are throwing off profit so fast that they can't give it away. Like literally, they're trying to buy back stock and do dividends and get to a cash neutral position and they still end up having tens of billions of dollars in cash. Still that they're that they've got burning a hole in their pocket because they make so much profit.

01:24:49 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Every single quarter Did they talk about China 162.1 billion dollars cash on hand, yeah 161 billion cash on hand, wow.

01:25:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Did they talk about China? Because, remember, this was the quarter that the Chinese government told Chinese government officials not to own iPhones and that was a big hit. I think that was a big slap for Apple, tim was a little evasive a little bit, I agree. I mean he went to China a couple of weeks ago just to say hi, he mentioned that.

01:25:20 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, he mentioned that.

01:25:22 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
He wasn't evading China, the country, but discussion about where the how their business is doing. Yeah, and we'll see. I thought it was interesting. Oh well, we're. We're still one of the top four phones being sold amongst the middle class. Like, okay, wow, that's a lot of qualifiers, yeah.

01:25:37 - Jason Snell (Host)
They did. And when he said, you know, as we said a few quarters ago, where we were, you know, last year we had the top selling phones I'm like, yeah, what about this year, tim? What about now? And I was like we're not going to talk about that. But, as you know, I was just there and it was great and we love it, love the people. Love the people. And like, okay, all right, like they're never going to say anything that isn't positive. So, you know, but you know it was a. They sent a positive signal about China, which is what they were trying to do, I think, politically and also just to investors, that they're not, they're not sweating it too much. But yeah, it's a.

01:26:13
There's a story I actually put in our in our notes that I think is a good dovetail here, which is the Chinese market's not like our market. There was a. There was a piece called on Chinese knockoffs and why Leica works with Xiaomi. It's at the bottom of our show notes. It's by a guy named Sam Biford on Multicore, and what I like about it is he calls it out. He says, you know, john Gruber and Sebastian DeVitt said things about like, oh, why is Leica working with Xiaomi and aren't they a ripoff phone company?

01:26:45
And his point is China market. The whole point is that the the prevalence of of WeChat is so great that it's not like the rest of the world where there's like Samsung and Apple and that's it. In China there are like four or five high end phones and switching between them is very easy because you just switch and run the same app that everybody runs, and so the pressure is on. And when we're looking at it through the iPhone lens, like it may seem weird, where you're like, oh, how's Apple doing in China? Cause there was competition, they're like, oh, no competition for Apple, oh the vapors. But in China it's real, because in China Apple doesn't have a lot of those same motes that they have in the rest of the world, and so a really nice Chinese manufacturer and maybe a nudge from the government to say, hey, maybe by the Chinese phone this time, is going to have an effect that it wouldn't necessarily have anywhere else in the world because the market's just so different.

01:27:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And, by the way, neither, apparently, sebastian DeVitt nor John Gruber, no Leica all that well, because they have been very quick to sell their brand to the highest bidder for years. And that piece, that piece goes into it.

01:27:57 - Jason Snell (Host)
They're like oh yeah, there's like you know. There's like this cheap camera that has a Leica label on it, just for no reason, Leica is the Dolby, the Dolby audio of camera companies.

01:28:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They'll sell it to anybody wants to put that badge on them and hassle.

01:28:12 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Oh, this is this phone has Hasselblad, engineering, right. Okay, what meaning? We consulted. We looked at that camera and said yes, like can definitely pass through that.

01:28:23 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I admit, though, for for to go from a obscure film company to having your having your brand everywhere and making some money on it. We can talk about what the value of it but, but not a bad move.

01:28:33 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Like I was doing that kudos to you. Like you figured that one out so cause it was a lot.

01:28:38 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
There's a lot of pivots that didn't happen that well, especially going from film to digital.

01:28:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This multi-core piece is actually, I think, right on, because he says the Chinese market, as you were saying, jason, is very different. We don't know it very well. It's very competitive. I've had Xiaomi phones and loved them. I think he says it's unfair to call them rip off artists. I agree, yeah.

01:28:58 - Jason Snell (Host)
Plus, there are market dynamics there that they have to take a. You know they it's a. It's tough competition for them to be in and I like I totally get it and it's not like looking at a U S phone market and so you got to kind of understand what they're, what they're trying to do there.

01:29:12 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, it's not just the marketplace. I mean it's kind of I want to say offensive, but it's it's. It's very incorrect to decide that, hey, we've this, this, this, this California company has, dev, has developed a phone, and we feel as though every single market everywhere in the world, no matter what kind of situation each person in that world culture they live in, this is going to be absolutely the best phone for each one of them. Well, no, when you have a company that like Xiaomi, when you have these other companies, those names, you don't really recognize and say, well, actually, we've made a phone specifically for the India market, because here is what, here is what it's like to get broadband access at certain, in certain parts of that market and since I had, we can't simply put an iPhone in that person's hands. Here's the market in Northern China, here's what here's the market like in Russia. Here's the market in the Middle East, making phones that are very, very much adapted for exactly what the people in those cultures and in those countries need and use. So it's a lot of it is that's this part of the place where a globalism is working against Apple, and they had a big bounce with the rise of the middle class in China, where Apple?

01:30:23
Was this really luxury, like an aspirational brand? I mean, we remember I remember being in the counterfeit electronics bazaar in Beijing, but I think this might have been before the iPhone was officially available in China and the Apple logo was on every fake phone, even like a Samsung flip phone. Fake would have like a translucent Apple logo on it, because that was the halo sort of logo everybody wanted. Now that's all simmered down. Now it's just another brand and people can choose based on what is I am. I am never. I am never going to be moving to California anytime soon. The made by, designed in California logo means nothing to me. What is the best phone for what I'm doing right now? And, as Jason said, like all all of this phone needs to do is to run WeChat extremely well and a couple other things, and that's a very much leveler.

01:31:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, my counter would be and Sam says that, the Xiaomi 13 is his favorite camera above, over and above the iPhone 15. I mean, that's a real, like a camera that's not sub, just a brand. On there they actually said he?

01:31:28 - Jason Snell (Host)
he said he really likes the 15 camera and he hated the 14 cameras.

01:31:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's kind of much improved yeah.

01:31:34 - Jason Snell (Host)
I want to flip it. What he said is exactly right and on the flip side of that, the fact that Apple does so well in China is kind of remarkable when you think that they are acting. You know, essentially in that market it is just the brand and the phones. Because we talk a lot, there's a lot of criticism of Apple that ends up being well, you know, they've got a walled garden and they've got an ecosystem and they're trapping people in and that's why there's that, that you know that argument right, which is like all those people are drones and they're stuck in there and and it doesn't give enough credit to the people who love Apple's products and their brands to say that they're they're actually prisoners. They just don't realize it yet.

01:32:08
But Apple does really well in China, where they don't have any of those games. They can't play any of those games and they still generally do pretty well. So it's a very different market where they don't have a lot of the same advantages. And yet, you know, year after year, the iPhone actually does pretty well and and now they are selling more Macs and iPads in China as well. So you know it is, but it's totally different. They're playing a different game in China than they are. That's why they do things like why is there an iPhone with two SIM slots only available in China? And it's because, if we didn't make it that way, we'd be killed in China. And so we make it that way because we want that market. They do stuff like that.

01:32:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What about AI? I mean this. This is an area where Google and Microsoft open AI are really AI forward, and Apple doesn't have a much of a story on this.

01:33:00 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
This was another question that came up during the Q&A and boy did they waffle on this. They had, they had nothing in their in that, in that hand of cards, because they were basically saying what is legitimate response, which is, well, it's not just because we don't have generative AI product, just because we don't have a chatbot product, doesn't mean that we haven't been investing heavily in AI. You see, you see AI in our, in our camera, in our live voicemail product. You see AI, our personal voice. You see AI in the fall detection on the Apple watch, things, things that they were they're calling out, but they didn't really address the fact that, yeah, but you put so many billions of dollars saying that the part of the future of the company is going to be magic goggles that let you see elves that aren't there.

01:33:46
But a lot of people and a lot of industry and enterprise are really reacting really strongly to the ability to summarize a thousand emails and automatically create transcriptions and action items from a voice meeting. Like, maybe, maybe this is going to be a problem in the future and, of course, they can't talk about what they're doing right now and if they've done anything to pivot. But this was one of the couple of places. That was a pretty, pretty big waffle on them.

01:34:12 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, they've been pretty consistent in doing what they can with the message because, it is true, they've been using machine learning stuff and features in their product for a long time and they can lean on that and they can lean on the creation of the neural engine and like it's not, like Apple doesn't do stuff with machine learning models.

01:34:26
They actually, they absolutely do, and they are scattered throughout the operating system, including the new predictive text in the latest version of iOS and MacOS. But then he gets to the end and Tim Cook basically says and in terms of large language models and other things like that, obviously we can't do anything for the future, but we're spending a lot of effort on that. That's all he's left with right, which is and if Mark German's reports are to be taken at face value, which I think we can, I think he's got a really good track record. They are doing things like doing a crash program to see if they can do something like what Microsoft has done with OpenAI in Xcode, so that they can help programmers do something like co-pilot, co-pilot is now two years old and very mature, and for Siri this could be really fun.

01:35:22
So that's where they got caught with their pants down was in that kind of stuff, not, you know. They were experimenting with ML stuff, with photo analysis, like eight years ago, but they missed the boat on this part of it, and so all they can do is sort of like wave their hands at and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're working on it and that's it.

01:35:40 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
And if there's any reason to see a reason for optimism here, it's that all of these you know Microsoft and OpenAI and Google they might get caught really hard by new regulations that say, hey look, you can't. You can't use this model because it was trained with, with data and content that you did not have licensing to or they be. You didn't get permission from the rights owners to incorporate this into the AI training model, used a data set that we know. We know exactly every scrap information that was in here. And I'm not I'm only, I'm not even not even to the basis of speculating here.

01:36:17
But if I had been caught with my pants down this way say, oh my God, we bet we. Why do we bet on the magic elf goggles? We should have been doing stuff with generative AI. I would be saying, well, guess what? We are going to license every. We're going to build a brand new model that we own and we are going to train it only with stuff that we've licensed. We are going to anticipate whatever international regulations are going to be in place that limit what, how you can grow an AI model, and we're going to make sure that we don't have to start from scratch again in a year or two, and maybe that won't necessarily make up for the fact that not only do these other companies have these great, these great systems, they've also hired away all of the best AI researchers who know that here's where the here's where we're going to get the training and the budget and the mandate to do great stuff. We're not going to get that at Apple. It might allow them to at least mitigate how far behind they've fallen.

01:37:07 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, I think that I think it's going to be interesting. I think that their appetite, their low appetite for risk is really hard here, because I think that I think, even with the other models, until chat, gpt forced the issue and, and you know, the global diffusion and everything else forced the issue, a lot of people had a lot of these tools that were in the, you know, they've been working on for a decade and they were just afraid of what was going to happen, which is what's happening, which is going to be rental lawsuits, and the issue is that number one is the chances of winning lawsuits are actually pretty low and they get lower as more and more people use them For the copyright holders who are suing the AI.

01:37:44
Yeah, yeah, it's going to get. The chances of them winning those cases are very low and we only see a small drop of the investment that's going. That's available when everyone's worried about those lawsuits. As soon as those lawsuits get all the way, go through the entire pipeline, then we're going to see real money.

01:37:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's why both Google and open AI have said we're going to indemnify you so that you cannot lose money because of copyright lawsuits.

01:38:06 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
But I'm just saying there's a lot of people sitting on. I think a lot of people like Apple are sitting on the on this, not sitting on the sidelines, but not necessarily going out.

01:38:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think that's a problem because look at how fast open AI is iterating now because they went hungry.

01:38:19 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It's iterating because we're all using it and that's the whole thing. Like mid-journey got out ahead and mid-journey has tens of millions of people using it and of course it's getting faster, getting better, much faster, turns out, you get better with AI when people use you, and it's impossible.

01:38:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Really, this is Apple's problem with Siri it's impossible to do this stuff behind closed doors. You cannot get better.

01:38:44 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
And not only that, but according to other reports you've seen from German and elsewhere, that Siri is just foundationally really really hard to revolutionize, that they basically have to trash and restart it, and don't deny the fact that we forget that they bought Siri.

01:38:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It wasn't developed under Apple's roof.

01:38:58 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It was a app. Yeah, it was a app that they bought. This wasn't like something that was here as a foundational technology that we are weaving into the magic of Apple everywhere.

01:39:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I think you could argue they missed the voice assistant revolution. They are now missing the AI revolution. And Mark Gurman? This was a shocker. Long article on health came out November 1st. Apple has plans to eventually maybe revolutionize healthcare. He talks about internal strife, some employees saying we should serve healthy people. Some people say, oh no, we should help sick people. Get better. You have a whoever put this input, a great poll quote. I did, thank you.

01:39:39 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It's Apple health was short quotes. That's not. That's not. I'm saying that's. That's not a poll quote. I basically tried to pull out some of the highlights. Oh, then I was very it's a very long, it's a very long piece.

01:39:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I will let you read your summary then, because it was very good, I think.

01:39:53 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, basically, there's a lot of really good stuff in there, and one of the foundation, one of the fundamental struggles that they're they're trying to document here, is that you can make lots and lots and lots and lots of money as a tech company If you take rich, healthy people who are worried about their health and sort of sell them this magical device, some some of the that you're telling them hey, this is a magical device that will warn you if you're about to have a heart attack and I know that you're, you're you're playing pickleball like a mad person trying to become healthy. This will teach, show you exactly how much better your heart health is getting, whereas there are other people more like research, more into it, more medically, or you're saying that, yeah, but the people who actually need this are people who have health problems.

01:40:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Can I just say insurance companies have known this for years. You make money and insurance on healthy people. You lose money on sick people and it's very risky to do sick people because there's this whole thing called the FDA and if somebody dies you're in deep trouble.

01:40:50 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Right, but the but the FDA.

01:40:52
The FDA has and that's something that's been that was specifically called out in this article that, uh, and as Alex said Alex is excuse me the Apple is not necessarily really excited about taking huge risks and the idea of saying we are, we could really really help a lot of people if they we could help them manage their diabetes, they could help them manage their blood pressure. Both of these are very, very tough problems to solve on a wearable that is not going to insert anything through your skin. However, there are. There are technologies that could be used to again help people who already have hypertension that Apple is not necessarily pursuing because they want to be that conservative. They don't necessarily they have, they have. They have great issues, maybe perhaps correctly, with saying we, this is going to help people with hypertension manage their disease. If it doesn't work perfectly or works squirrely enough that it misleads people into thinking they're a lot healthier than they actually are, that's not only a safety problem, but they will also see that as a big PR problem that they would then have to solve.

01:41:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And this is part of the problem of the blood glucose sensor is that you can't, really you don't want to make one that is like a you know, an Abbott, Dexcom, uh, continuous glucose monitor, because of the liability risks. You want to make something that says, you know to a healthy person, hey, that made your blood sugar go up. That's a lot safer and a lot more reliable and very useful.

01:42:17 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I got nothing, not to say it's not useful, but that's because you're healthy, alex.

01:42:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They talk about Apple's health clinics, uh, that they were thinking maybe to offer to the public. Uh, uh, the clinics would feature open spaces and clean lines of an Apple retail store, sleek equipment like the non-inflating blood pressure cuff. Apple employed doctors there would review data collected from the company's devices, fill in the gaps. Uh, but the problem was, as a expert in this field says, there's no way any consumer or employer would ever pay what it takes Apple to run the clinics. It's probably fine for a population of young and healthy employees, but you wouldn't want to run a Medicare Advantage plan with it.

01:43:00
It's, and this is the problem, uh, I, you know whoever wrote, whether Mark wrote this or, uh, his co-author, uh, drake Bennett, wrote it. They quote Susan Sontag with a great one of the Susan Sontag's best quotes, which is that, uh, we both have, we all have dual citizenship in the kingdom of the well and in the kingdom of the sick. And the problem is and I know this because I'm right on the edge, right, uh, it's a very different matter to do healthcare for the well, for healthy people than it is for healthcare, but I think that I think that the the the other thing, though, is to always pay attention, and we get.

01:43:33 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
we see this. We have a problem in our society in general of not understanding accuracy versus precision, you know, and so like, when we say, someone dropped 0.5% in the polls that are plus or minus 3%, you just kind of like that doesn't mean anything so so the thing is is that is that there are whole, but you can see trends.

01:43:55
And the thing is is that I think that when you solve, even for people who are are sick and you know, and I'm getting older and I have, you know, I'm having to pay attention to more things and I just, you know, and um, uh, and the thing is is that I think that what we have to understand is what can this device do? That that the precision is appropriate for the accuracy? You know that, that it's that it's showing you there, and I think that that's the challenge I was getting. When you solve precision, it can get really expensive. To solve only a couple more percentages of precision, you know, you know really, really gets expensive.

01:44:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, and the poll quote is we are not interested in post sick healthcare the money is in because there's tons of liability there, Like there's just so much. And there's a lot more money in those, those and that I think that's healthy people. You know, those concerned, rich people.

01:44:45 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
But yeah. But, as as always, you kind of have to reconcile this with a lot of the self haloing effect that Tim Cook and others others at Apple, when they talk about Apple health where I do, I do believe they genuinely believe that this is one of the most important product lines from the port, most important part of Apple mission, apple's mission to help people lead healthier lives. However, when they decide that they're not going to swing at the tough pitch because of the amount of risk, that's a problem. When, when you see that there's another part, another one of the many revelations or, excuse me, a piece of reporting, let's say, is that we've, we've.

01:45:20
I've talked a lot about how, why don't they do like an Android, an Android compatible version of the Apple watch? So this story said that it was called project fennel, it was nearly complete, and then one of the reasons why they dumped it was that the that if quote, if you gave up the watch to Android, you would dilute the value of the watch to the iPhone. Unquote, said someone with knowledge of the decision. And so that's why you know, you have to see all. That's why it really does keep me thinking. You want to save people's lives, but on, but if it's not going to help you sell iPhones, that life is somehow not as worth saving as somebody who is willing to buy a phone.

01:45:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's always. You can be altruistic, you can be, Mother Teresa. But then the accountants come in and say but you will lose your shirt.

01:46:03 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
But that's, that's fine. Yes, as CEO, you have the ability to say you know what. We're going to take this risk, we're going to go ahead and any with it anyway, because we think that this is we know you don't not in a publicly held company corporation.

01:46:13
You don't with with 162 billion dollars. I think you can take that risk. This is, this is why a brave thing is a brave thing. Okay, when you're taking a risk and doing something that is not as safe as the other thing. But the thing that, again, the thing that always just gets up my nose is on. They take out this beautifully designed Apple Halo, put it on their own heads and say that that's why we're not like other companies. We have this holy, this holy mandate to make people's lives better and improve humanity. But against it. That's great. You know what you could do. That's going to cost us money. We're not going to do that. But again, look at this cool Halo we just made for ourselves, everybody. We're your friends. We're not a $2 trillion company.

01:46:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's why I get grumpy and annoyed when I will concede to you that is, I guess, possible for them to do so, but I think by now we all know that Apple is a profit making institution and is not altruistic.

01:47:03 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
The Halo. Well, again they they made on the Halo. Just just it's, it's. It's okay to say point blank. Unfortunately, we don't think this would be a good business decision for us in the long run. We don't understand the where profit based business. But then they don't say that. They say that we just want everybody to be happy and puppy like and get kitten.

01:47:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's good it's called marketing, andy, they're really good at marketing.

01:47:25 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Marketing is subordinate for lies, damn lies. And yeah, I agree with you.

01:47:30 - Jason Snell (Host)
That's market, and people get people criticized Mother Teresa too, by the way. Oh yeah, good point she's she's. She's been criticized a lot for not providing for not providing qualities of care and focusing on the suffering of her patients rather than their, their, their health, and like I'm just saying, no, this is a real hard subject to be in, if even Mother Teresa really kind of gets it in the end. So like I get what Apple's doing, andy got to the nub of it.

01:47:53
He really did that. That Apple doesn't like bad publicity and this is the danger of them waiting into healthcare is like how do you do it and you can see where they're. Like maybe we'll just stay away from that and yeah it's it's a great article.

01:48:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Highly recommend you read it. It's. It's yeah, good job, mark German once again and two authors on the story, but very very good Points for quoting season's on talk.

01:48:23 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It's also worth it for the backstory of like. Here's what it was like when they were developing this right, getting ready for the first one that that blood, that blood pressure and glucose monitor was something they wanted to have at launch and they simply decided that it's just not. We can we can't, market this as a health watch. We have to market this as a lifestyle watch, given the technology that we have. Yeah.

01:48:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
A couple of quickies before we get ready for our picks of the week. The $5 least expensive version of Apple music, the Siri based voice plan, is no more. Do you know? Anybody bought it? It was a very strange.

01:49:01 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Even when we talked about it at the beginning I thought this is a weird product Boy, that that, if anything, that demonstrated exactly how I don't use the word desperate. I want to use a more positive version of that, where how they're willing to go to try anything to get market share and take it away from Spotify and if the way, that, if the only way they could get a price tier that was substantially cheaper than Spotify without ads was to we're going to create this really weird one and hopefully people there'll be some uptake on it. That's what they're going to release. Going to try it.

01:49:32 - Jason Snell (Host)
No, I mean Amazon did the same thing. The idea here is is not, I think it's more how do I get people to use a home pod If it doesn't support, you know, right, like with if they are Spotify users? How do we do that? And the answer is you sell them a cheap plan that just does Apple music on the home pod and you control your voice by that and, like, amazon tried this too and it was stupid for the Amazon Echo. It's a dumb idea, the idea that there'll be this weird bifurcate. It feels to me like this was sold by the music licensors, right.

01:50:04
Like, they're like oh, we'll cut you a deal for a little voice, or whatever your fancy voice assistance.

01:50:09 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Cause it can't be stolen.

01:50:11 - Jason Snell (Host)
Clearly a product nobody wants. Like for I know that somebody else is like, but I wanted to.

01:50:15 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Well you are a special person. I told the announcement. I was like I forgot that it even existed. I know, I know I was like all right, all right.

01:50:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hey, let me ask you, Alex, about the new Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro updated for M3. Any points?

01:50:31 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
you want to make about it Exciting you know, it's Logic now does 32 bit, 32 bit.

01:50:41 - Jason Snell (Host)
And they've got a mastering mode out at the end of the process. That is nice. That will get your final output to be decent yeah.

01:50:49 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, yeah, so I mean it's, it's in the upgrade. I think the big news is always that the upgrade was free to zero dollars. Free, yeah, so. So I mean I think that you know a lot of us bought these apps a long time ago, like I bought the new Final Cut the day it was released and Logic probably a week after that and I have not paid for an upgrade since and they are great applications that do a lot of great work. So, and I think that you know, the Final Cut Summit is going on right now down in San Jose and I think some foot we had we're going to be talking about it on Friday or Thursday on office hours, but we Bill Davis jumped in and talked a little bit to us today about it and huge focus by Apple on the iPad. So Apple, you know there's a lot of like.

01:51:33
Look at what we're doing on the iPad and look how great the iPad is.

01:51:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They released Final Cut and Logic for the iPad and they're updating the iPad versions for the first time.

01:51:41 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, so that's a big, that's a huge focus. They've obviously realized that there's a lot of social folks that are doing using their application and they're really focusing on making sure that those tools are guided towards them.

01:51:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Credit to the folks who do a Sahi Linux. This is a Linux design for Apple Silicon and they thought they had a problem because when you update your Mac using a Sahi Linux to Sonoma or you install a Sahi Linux after a Sonoma upgrade, there's a bug and you can get a black screen. The device boots to a black screen. You have to do a DFU, but it turns out it wasn't a Sahi Linux that was causing the problem, a Sahi said. As far as we could tell, all users who upgraded to Sonoma the normal way have an out of date or even broken system recovery OS. In particular, macbook Pro 14 and 16 owners are vulnerable to ending up with a completely unbootable system. This is if you use a non-standard I think refresh rate on your monitor.

01:52:44
Apple has. It occurs if a display is configured to refresh rate other than promotion. The other bug is Sonoma using a previously installed version of system recovery, which obviously will cause a problem when recovery. A Sahi Linux has fixed their installer and they've noted this for Apple. I presume Apple has fixed it or will fix it. We haven't heard yet. A Sahi says we do not understand how Apple managed to release an OS update Then, when upgraded to normally leaves machines unbootable if the display refresh rate is not the default. It seems to have been an oversight. Yes, it is so just a note, and I will look forward to running Linux on my new ridiculously fast computer.

01:53:33 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
A lot of people are going to say well, why would you want to run Linux on a Mac? That's absolutely true. It's not like it's necessarily an upgrade. But realize that we are at the very, very start of Apple Silicon and that in five or six years we're going to start to see M1 hardware that no longer supported by Apple. Rather than throw these perfectly viable and useful devices into the trash, it's good to be able to install a new operating system on it and still get value out of it.

01:53:58 - Jason Snell (Host)
Also, one of the things that I think a Sahi Linux is trying to do is get up and running. People are trying to get up and running with a version of the stuff that the Steam Deck uses. You could basically your Apple Silicon Mac could then be like a Steam Deck which can run more like basically from various projects. They're running essentially the Windows games on the Steam Deck, which is a Linux box. If you could do that with a Sahi Linux on Apple Silicon, you now have all of the Steam Deck compatible games available to you and not just the Mac version games.

01:54:34
So I think that that's another. I don't think they're quite the same project, but they're like intersecting conversations happening with a Sahi Linux and the people who are trying to see if they can get Steam Deck stuff running on the Mac. So that's another use case, right Like if.

01:54:48 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Steve puts all this if.

01:54:49 - Jason Snell (Host)
Valve puts all this effort into getting Windows games to run on Linux, and then you can run Linux on Mac hardware. You are now running those Windows games optimized for Steam Deck, but they'll also be optimized for your Mac. That would be cool.

01:55:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I will be putting Baldur's Gate 3 on my new Macbook the minute it arrives. By the way, you mentioned the Final Cut Pro Creative Summit. They just, in their Discord, posted iJustine's tweet. Alex you, of course who discovered iJustine, will love this picture from 16 years ago at the first trip to Cupertino, and she's now speaking at the summit in Cupertino.

01:55:30 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I think she spoke for an hour and a half yesterday. She was the keynote speaker.

01:55:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
She was a keynote. Well, no better person to do it. She does all her own editing. That's really cool. Good for you, justine. Good for Barbara Streisand. I'm sorry, streisand. Very important you pronounce it correctly Streisand like sand, not Streisand, I think so. Apparently, siri mispronounced her name, so she says I called Tim Cook. This is in her book. My name is Barbara Streisand. I said my name isn't with a Z, it's Streisand Like sand of the beach. How simple can you get? It's the name of the beach. So anyway, I decided to. How do you change this? I like solving problems. I figured I better call Apple, I mean the head of Apple, you know, tim Cook and he had Siri change the pronunciation of my name to be correct.

01:56:27 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I mean, that is one perk of fame, that's definitely you know, I think the thing I'll say about that that the story is that I can tell you lots of stories about lots of companies where a VIP calls and everyone figures out how to make the VIP happy. That's a really easy fix usually for them to solve a problem that could turn into a big problem pretty quickly if they're someone like Barbara Streisand, Sand Sand. But the other side of that is I will say that there are a lot of stories that float around around Apple. People send emails to Tim Cook and things get solved. And they are not Barbara Streisand, they are people that are talking about accessibility. They're people who are talking about something and they send him one email. They don't work through it, they don't put it on Twitter and Apple solves it. I mean, it's a really you know, he's really good at that. So I think that it's made out like she got that, but a lot of people get that response. I mean he does pay a lot of attention.

01:57:26 - Jason Snell (Host)
Executive Relations team. Right, they will funnel. There's a special team where executives get messages from customers and will funnel them to a group that will take care of it.

01:57:35 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, and do you think that this is Apple just getting Karmic payback for the time that Steve Jobs basically called the Google's vice president of engineering? You said I don't like the color of the yellow you've got in the Google logo in the YouTube app. Is that okay, if we change, it All right.

01:57:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
One final You're using the wrong color in your logo. One final break Get your picks ready. Mac Break Weekly is going to wrap up after this word from Melissa, the data quality experts. For over 38 years now, melissa has helped companies harness the value of their customer data to drive insight, maintain data quality and support global intelligence. All data expires. I mean this. We know this right.

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02:00:45
It happens to me whenever I get a new computer, I have to do a little work to get that computer ready. It's something I've picked many times before, but I just thought it would be good to mention it again because I'm going to be doing it again. That is brew, home brew which allows me not just to install command line applications but using something they call brew bundle. I just did it on my MacBook laptop. I don't want to do a copy from old laptop to new one, I want to do a fresh install, but I also want all the facilities, all the apps that I expect to have on my new computer. I create a brew bundle, which is a text file. This is it actually. I'll show you my brew bundle that I then can run as a command line to reinstall.

02:01:34
Not only all, these are all the command line apps I use. As you can see, I use quite a few, including a bunch of fonts. It just automatically runs through this. Then it also uses a program called MAS, which is the Apple Store, to install Apple Store apps. This way, I am really up and running pretty darn quick.

02:01:56
I have a whole script that I can run to get my system up to date and ready to use as quickly as possible. I also have a few other things I do and I put together this script. I also will point out a really nice little script I learned from Stefan Judas, who has a very I think I've come along to appreciate it good way of keeping things clean. For instance, he doesn't have the browser downloaded to a downloads folder but into the temp folder where it's periodically automatically cleaned out. Screenshots to he has and I've been using that script that he offers and I recommend looking at that as well in hisfiles. That will kind of do a lot of these. You know command line configs. I've modified it somewhat to work better for what I need, but things like automatically hiding and showing the dock or Showing battery time on a laptop, changing caps lock key, repeat all of those things. And this is again, it's a command line. So with just a few command lines I'm able to get my, my new computer, up and running pretty quickly. I reminded myself that this is probably something I should tell people about One more time.

02:03:12
I did a couple of hands-on Mac episodes about brew but a homebrewsh. If you've never used it. Probably anybody uses a Mac as aware of homebrew, but if you haven't used it it's oops, this is wrong, not homebrewsh brewsh. I shouldn't have said it's called homebrew, but it's brewsh for the website. The missing package manager for Mac OS there are other package managers Think has been around for a really long time. I use that for years. There are some others, but I think homebrew is the the one I prefer and use and makes it a lot easier for me to get everything up and running Instantly, especially with that brew bundle which is a third-party add-on to homebrew. My pick of the week brewsh. Oh, it's free, mr Jason Snell. Pick of the week.

02:04:01 - Jason Snell (Host)
I'm gonna do this one with Andy because he and I both have the exact same idea. This week, the excellent developers at Rogue Amoeba came up with a new version of Audio Hijack, which is a an essential tool for especially for us podcasters, but anybody who does audio on their Mac, and it's pretty simple. It is a beta feature. They're calling it. It's a transcription block.

02:04:23
Using whisper, you can drop it into Audio Hijack and basically pointed at where you wanted to put the transcript and then you press record and and what you're recording is also transcribed by open AI whisper to a text file, so it could be any audio on your system or, if you're recording a podcast, it could literally be the audio that you're recording for your podcast, and then out the other end comes text from whisper. They're still tweaking it. It's beta. There's some things I gave him some feedback. There's some things that like the way I think the window of Audio that they're using is a little short and they need to widen it a little bit for better context. But like it's, it's really good and all you do is drag in the transcript block and hear existing audio hijack sessions and you get a transcript.

02:05:11 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. For people who aren't familiar with Audio Hijack, it's one of the best Engineering pieces of software I have ever used, not just for audio but just in general. No matter what you want to do Involving audio, you can build a solution for this because it's just like Lego blocks that connect together. So, for instance, if all you want to do is I want to record from my microphone to an mp3 file, okay, take a block that is your microphone, that you can choose the microphone. Take a block that is record whatever comes into this and they are automatically connected. Gathering, boom, you're done. And if you say, oh geez, they've my. The electric space heater is making a hum. I want the hum to be removed. Take the block that says remove a background home, put it in between the microphone and the recorder and you do that. I've got whenever I record my podcast, they get there. They look complicated that's window full of these like Intervening, like little pipelines and things but they're really really simple to put together and, like I said, no matter what you want to do With involving audio, you can build a solution for this just by in like maybe less than a minute.

02:06:13
And what makes this so brilliant Is that now, all the the every week, I record I'm a charger recording the entire podcast that we I do about Google with Florence Ion Of on really FM, and so to transcribe all of our audio for a transcription that we can put on the site, all I had to do is take this new transcription block, drag it between these two parts of the thing and suddenly I get a file of this wonderful thing and this is something I use a lot every time there's like a live keynote. I'm not joking the I always have like my Android phone, like, actually just like poise, next to whatever speaker I'm using it with, because the speech to text transcription that's built into my pixel phone is impeccable and wonderful, because you know, I can't be scribbling down notes from start to finish, trying to get every single detail Down as much easier if I take broad notes. I simply what did he? When did he say this? Where do you say that? And I have it. But now I can simply say okay, youtube, connect to that live screen, live stream, connected to this transcription block. Give me the transcription now.

02:07:17
And Jason is very, very right, it's beta. It's not super great, I'm, it's disappointing because the screenshots that they use make it look. Oh, my goodness, is such a tidy and beautiful Format thing? All I get is this one Like a catch, it like give you the, the lid, flew off the ketchup bottle while you're trying to shake out a little bit, for I get this like big blower of text, yeah, and not all of it is really great yet. Also, they have two settings. You can either get it like fast or you can get it high quality. The high quality Really takes a lot longer to process. Max.

02:07:55 - Jason Snell (Host)
Okay, but like yeah.

02:07:57 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
But again, it's beta and and and it's not. And it's not like you you're paying a monthly subscription for whisper or per Transcription, like nope, you, you bought, you bought hydro five. You already own I audio high-check great. Thank you very much for being a customer. Install this update now and transcribe your. Your butt off nice.

02:08:13 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's only gonna get better, so it's yeah it's very cool.

02:08:16 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, they're. They're very good at improving forever. I've been a customer since like one point something I think about I think it was probably Jason that I actually am friends with the chief developers and I wasn't like a big user of audio hijack until like a little bit later, but it's just been really what you feel. So you feel so good for supporting software that's of this high quality, that it supported this well.

02:08:37 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, you can literally do anything you want with it. I add back in Mac world we had a recording setup where I wanted the non the last technical people in terms of audio to be able to come in and record something, just sit down and record and like Believe it or not, that's actually really hard when you've got multiple microphones and what's different tracks and how you're gonna do it. And there was literally we set up an audio hijack thing that was just like microphone, one recording microphone to record, like all the microphones Just went and recorded and it meant that there was like a big red button. There's literally a big red button and audio hijack and you press the big red button to record, like. So it's just so much easier than anything else out there and you can make these incredibly complex chains if you want to. So, yeah, it's great. And now it transcribes to just that's really cool.

02:09:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's thrilling that they're they're staying up to date with it like that. That's, that's really great. Yeah, uh, rogue amoeba calm.

02:09:28 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
if you can figure out a spell, rogue amoeba, you're halfway there a very 1990 software company, no idea we'd be this successful and we still be in business in 20 or 30 years.

02:09:43 - Jason Snell (Host)
I think they bought a few. I think they bought a bunch of the domains that are common misspellings of it, just because yeah we're a gamiba, I'm sure.

02:09:52 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
rug amiga, mr Alex Lindsey, your pick of the week to wrap things up, and, by the way, with I, with hijack you, you do all those records, you go. Oh, by the way, I would like to compress them all together and stream them to shoutcast.

02:10:05 - Jason Snell (Host)
And you just had two more little nodes and Then you put them on YouTube and all those things. And yes, they do have audio hijack calm. By the way, I just checked they do Spell amoeba if you don't want to, yeah.

02:10:16 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
The and I will. The only thing I will I'll add to that is just buy the bundle with loopback. So so like, just just just get the two of them together. I'm we use. I use loop back a lot more than how do you hijack, and actually it's connected to my, my recommendation. So we're showing this off in office hours tomorrow and we started started it last week. So this is the corg Nano controller to and what.

02:10:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just wanted. I don't know what it does, but I want it.

02:10:45 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Oh my gosh, so great.

02:10:48
So this is a mini controller, and so what we're over in the process of a lot of us. I know you'd be surprised, but I've a pretty complex audio pipeline Go through this whole thing and one of the problems I have has been a little bit like it's. It's a little quirky and it's I've got like some hardware pulled together and Chris Fenwick, who's in office hours a lot, he built this thing with the north the sound desk, which is another another app, sound desk as well as and then have the nano controller control the sound desk loop. You know mesh manage all of the pipelines with loopback, and so we went through part one, which was an hour last week, last Wednesday, to talk about how all that stuff got done.

02:11:28
But we're gonna talk about how we tie this into sound desk and what it lets you do is have a hardware interface and you might have a bunch of things. You have your mic, you have your playback, you have another computer, you have other inputs going into your computer over Dante or over anything, any, any Individual device. You could have, for instance, a YouTube, you know, sorry, chrome, you know being one of those things that you can go up and down on, and so the idea is that you can map all those out and now you have a hardware interface that you can make it run and all you got to do is attach it to things in sound desk, to or any other app that that handles MIDI controllers. And so these little, this little media control MIDI controller things like 70 bucks it's not very expensive and it just gives you sliders sliders for things that are in MIDI and and you can use them with anything that takes a MIDI control.

02:12:13
And again, I kind of went from I don't know what I would need this for to I don't know how I'm Operating without this up and you know, and so and it, you know, so it. So that's. We're gonna be talking a lot about it Tomorrow, but it's become, you know, like I'm now. I'm in this process of building 3d models of all these pieces because I got to build my control desk and this is part of this nan. Nan, this nano controller is part of my Control system that I'm now built, built printing 3d parts for to kind of remap what I'm, what I'm doing. And Leo has something, apparently, I own the original version of this.

02:12:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I didn't even know it exactly. They fancy it up a little bit. This is this is Ancient, but I think it does basically the same thing right, a lot of the same things.

02:12:58 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, absolutely, and Super useful, like having there's something like people say, well, I can do it in software, but there is something about having an analog, like I can reach over, push something up and pull it back down again. That is super valuable and so, and then again we use this with Sound Desk and loop back and so, but it's pretty powerful.

02:13:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
John. John went back in the. Is this in our museum somewhere? Do we actually?

02:13:22 - Jason Snell (Host)
use this actually in production.

02:13:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Jason uses it when he was producing. It was a soundboard for techniques today before the stream decks came out. So yeah, I mean it's a control surface. They could do all sorts of stuff. Yeah, that's hysterical. I.

02:13:39 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Just, I just wish it had. You know that, that, that that t bar control, that like. Yeah, has that really great feeling to it, counter about, counter think balanced with you think you'd use that t bar all the time.

02:13:51 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I bought controllers with a t bar and you think you're gonna use it all the time and then you never. Then you just hit the auto button, so you just go. Yeah, I just say I'll have a half second.

02:13:59 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Oh, alex, I should have been clear. I don't need any of this Side of my desk. I want babies busy box, only for video.

02:14:14 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
The key is is that, if you're gonna use the t bar, what you really need is just a t bar, just a, just a t bar, so that every once in a while you can, just when you feel like you're getting a little tired, you can just grab onto and go.

02:14:26 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
You know like. You know like also also if you get mad at somebody, you fight, you pretend you're firing up the Death Star main. We know, that's what the whole.

02:14:31 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Thing exactly. You know that's it's.

02:14:34 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
That was a switcher, by the way, like that's what I do that yeah, that's what my favorite pieces of Star Wars trivia was that for that they used that for like the first Star Wars movie, and then, like two years then, when we came to get the new Death Star, they used the newest version of that same console for the new Death Star, like, oh Take, take $50 out of petty cash and go out to lunch.

02:14:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just call it the Jerry Todd button. Yes, everybody, everybody should have a Jerry Todd button. Right, that crow was a little bit off Just a little bit more worse.

02:15:05 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I had he reaches over and I know let's take a look at the weather cross.

02:15:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you've never seen second city TV, sc TV, you've missed one of the great shows of all greats. You know comedy sketch shows of all Time. Mr Alex Lindsey has his own comedy sketch show. He calls it Sabato, gigante co. What is coming up on? Office hours dot global.

02:15:43 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Now what we have again we're doing. The big thing is that we're talking about this now, this nano controller, which will change. If you watch last, there's a short overview on our on our YouTube channel, yeah, and if you go to office hours global and on YouTube, you'll see Chris walking through it in 10 minutes. Then we spent an hour talking about the first half of that, and next in tomorrow we're gonna spend the another hour talking about the other half of that, and so so that's a you know that.

02:16:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Everything you'd ever want to know about the nano control.

02:16:10 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Well, it's not a controller, it's.

02:16:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
this is interesting anatomy of a commercial. I like this.

02:16:16 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, so we'll stuff here, I tell you we're starting to do where, so we're between spaces, right. So we we happen we're using a different hardware system to run the show. We switched over about a week ago and so we're ringing out the new system and and so we we're not having external guests right now and we're kind of doing these labs. They're much more informal.

02:16:34
This is one of these labs that we're doing a bill. Bill Davis did a breakdown of a couple of a couple commercials that he's worked on in the past and really talked about what it takes to put those together. So we're kind of slowing down a little bit and just kind of for the next couple months, because we have to Move the, the old system, the new, the, the mirror is working right now, and then we're moving the new one, the the old one, to a new place, and that's what we're working on at the moment, and so, but, and then on Thursday we're gonna talk about the summit. So bills, bills, breaking down all the things about the summit that are, you know, coming up. You know that he saw there, like, what did we see? Where none of us got to go.

02:17:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, how fun anyway.

02:17:10 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
So that'll be. That'll be a bit of a breakdown, so anyway. So that's what it's all working on office hours dot global.

02:17:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You can join the zoom call there's a information about you know getting an invite to that at the website or you can watch the videos After the fact. Office hours that global. If you want to hire Alex, his day job putting this all together for you, my friend, zero, nine, zero dot media. Your, your backdrop looks different. What's going on with you and the backdrop?

02:17:39 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
You got lighting on the side that you didn't have. Well, I don't, it's because we changed the time, so so anyway, so I have a, so.

02:17:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Saving time actually had an important to you.

02:17:49 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Because the problem is is that I have these giant windows on one side and I've been putting off covering them and now I'm gonna have to cover. You have to there. And so right after the show, normally this this happens to the my background. I know I have to actually address it. It's okay, it's. It's a little frustrating for me, but anyway, I.

02:18:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well.

02:18:11 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I can just block off the windows, but the window is 20 feet high, and so it's like I have to tear, I have to tear things apart, and then I have to put ladders in and I have to do a bunch of things, and so I'm great tragedies of my life.

02:18:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We bought that beautiful Facility, the old brick house studio with storefront windows, and I was really hoping it would be like the old today's show when people would be pressing their noses against the windows as we did shows and you'd see him in the background. Then I found out that the Western Sun Basically lasered its way into the studio through those windows.

02:18:40 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I looked at, we were looking at this new space, that were that were looking at moving into and any, we're gonna do some ti to it. And he said what do you want to do with these windows? And I was like cover them with drywall, like I was just, like you know, like, like like when I see yeah, when I see windows, I'm like drywall, drywall, drywall, like you know like.

02:19:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We first put some very dark film on it, right, john? And that turned out they didn't darken enough. Then we put another one in that dark and dark enough. Then, finally, we made metal shades you could roll down the Sun. It's bright. It's bright, andy, and I code WG BH in Boston when you gonna be on next.

02:19:21 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I'm on next on Monday at one the after one in the afternoon here in these coasts. Go to wgph newsorg to stream it live or later. I was actually I was. I was also on Chicago radio this morning, wgn. So if you go to WGPN radio calm, you can listen to some of those stories I talked about.

02:19:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
WGN the 50,000 watt blowtorch of the prairie states. That's a great you will see.

02:19:42 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
You will bow down before our transmitter.

02:19:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You will bow down, I say radio 720, chicago land, good, all right. Well, we'll go look at that on WGN, mr Jason Snell, of course, six colors, calm, gotta go. Look at the incredible graphs multicolored, six colored graphs that he did his review.

02:20:07 - Jason Snell (Host)
Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the Sun. I have accomplished it. Oh yes, how, jason tell us. I built a giant sphere, the Sun sphere. It'll cover the Sun and bring it into a land of eternal darkness over Springfield.

02:20:24 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Simpsons, the world's fair in Chattanooga, tennessee, in 1982 as great, not?

02:20:29 - Jason Snell (Host)
you say nox, nox, noxville, my dear man.

02:20:34 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It's part of it's part of the greater Charles Charles Knoxville, up newville.

02:20:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yes, it's six dollars. Dot com to reviews and charts. I'm a busy week.

02:20:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, no kidding, I Mac review the Macbook 16 review gonna take a nap now. And all of the charts from the Apple Results. You can also catch his podcast. He doesn't sleep because he does a million podcasts. Six colors, comm, slash Jason To find out what's going on there. Lots of them. We do this show Mac break, weekly every Tuesday, 11 am Pacific, that's 2 pm Eastern time and it's now 1900 UTC because we are on save. It did standard time, finally 1900 UTC, and God willing will never leave standard time again. I.

02:21:26 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Don't care, I don't care which way we go, stay on one like I don't. I literally don't care, I don't care, I just want the. I want the time to stop, oh we should.

02:21:34 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
We shall celebrate. We, apparently, because what happened on Sunday, that must mean we saved daylight savings.

02:21:40 - Jason Snell (Host)
That was the whole point to say saving time.

02:21:43 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
We put in our time. That's right home for tea and metals.

02:21:46 - Jason Snell (Host)
You know, I just said I want time to stop, which I really like. Just make the time stop, don't we all go? We all?

02:21:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
senator Rubio has once again reintroduced, as he does every year, the Sunshine Protection Act of 2023 To end the end, but he wants to stay on daylight saving time as opposed to.

02:22:05 - Jason Snell (Host)
I don't care, I don't care any time.

02:22:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sure you go, for he wants more lightening in the morning, I guess, yeah, I mean at the evening.

02:22:13 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I can ever I think we need to start. You know A lot of people try to put their representatives on. This is an election year and people you know they're out there stumping, take your iPhone out or your Android out and walk up to them and ask them what they think about Ending. You know the time. You know you know the daylight savings or daylight you know, like, ending the switch. I think we need to get them all on record because I view it at this point as an intelligence test, like if they say, oh, I want to keep it. I don't think they're smart enough to run Congress.

02:22:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Like I don't. It's not a matter of, it's not just a few more the table.

02:22:44 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Alex the only smart answer to that for politicians why I agree with you, alex, whatever you agree with you and I, alex, yes, no, will you vote?

02:22:54 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
will you vote to end this insanity? That's what. That's what. That's how it should. That's how it should be phrased. Will you vote in this entity? All I know is how you're gonna vote.

02:23:02 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
We're gonna get it on camera. Rest assured, alex. I will vote in the best interests of my constituents and the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

02:23:09 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Every single time on it. I'm gonna put a stamp on it.

02:23:12 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
So, and only your, and only your contribution to my reelection campaign can assure that I'm there voting for your interest. Alex Lindsay, will you become part of my freedom?

02:23:24 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It's literally not my interest. It's my judgment of your ability to manage problems. Like, like you know, like, like I Called, like today this morning, america test kitchen. My favorite, my favorite thing, is American. I watch a lot of it and they did an omelet this morning, or I watched the video of an omelet this morning that I literally called into question my ability to watch their show again.

02:23:48 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Bad.

02:23:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You can watch us live. Do it live, at least for the time being. We're gonna shut down the live stream for non-club members At the end of the year, but from now you could still watch it alive Dot twit TV. If you're watching live, you can also watch in our IR or chat in our IRC, which also is being shut down. At the end of your IRC, that twit TV, or in the club.

02:24:17
To a discord you might say well, what can I do? I don't want things to shut down. You can join club twit. That's what you can do. Seven bucks a month. You get ad-free versions of all the shows because we don't need to advertise to you. You're helping us out. You also get shows we don't put out anywhere else. You also get access to the discord, which is a great place to hang, and bonus content we don't put anywhere else. It is, frankly, our last bulwark Against failing ad sales. We just found out we are short half a million dollars next year. This needs to be made up by our club. Now I understand if you can't afford it, and I know. You know we're all used to the free internet and you know I'm just like free TV, ad supported, but the ads just aren't there. So if you would like to keep us going, please go to twittv slash club. Twit, I think you'll think it's a good deal and I hope you will join. Thank you. After the fact, we still do offer this show for free ad supported, as long as, a good Lord willing, the cricks don't rise.

02:25:19
At twit.tv/MBW, there's a YouTube channel dedicated to Mac break weekly. You can watch the video there. Of course, subscribing is the best thing you can do. That's one. Frankly, one reason we're shutting down the live streams is people watch live, don't subscribe. So please subscribe, you'll get Mac break weekly automatically. You can watch or listen anytime you want. I think it's a great way to do the show. So please subscribe and become one of our our regulars. Thank you for joining us now. I'm sorry to say it's time to get back to work because Break time is over. Bye, bye.

02:25:56 - Jason Howell and Mikah Sargent (Other)
It's midweek and you really want to know even more about the world of technology, so you should check out tech news weekly, the show where we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. It's the biggest news. We talk with the people writing the stories that you're probably reading. We also talk between ourselves about the stories that are getting us even more excited about tech news this week. So if you're excited, well then join us. Head to twittv slash TNW to subscribe.