Untitled Linux Show 167 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Hey, this week it's the highs and the lows. We talk about the Linux market share hitting an all-time high, but also a kernel hacker that's fed up and leaves the kernel. There's a really weird story about Mono. Plasma 6.2 is asking for money and a whole lot more. You don't want to miss it, so stay tuned. Podcasts you love.

00:22 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
From people you trust. This is Twit.

00:28 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
This is the Untitled Linux Show, episode 167, recorded Saturday, august 31st. Don't have a bad time on purpose, hey folks. It is Saturday and you know what that means. It's time to get your geek on Time to talk about Linux and open source and all of that good stuff. I am your host, jonathan Bennett, and of course, I'm not here by myself. I've got, well, a couple of the guys with me and we've got some neat stories to talk about. We've got some kind of controversial stories to talk about. We're going to get into some fun stuff, but first of all we're going to let Ken start us out and he's going to talk about probably the most positive news for the week, and that's some news on the Linux market share.

01:09 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Yes, jonathan. Now, according to Jack Wallin's article, the Linux market share has reached a new high for desktops and the trend looks like it will continue. According to StackCounter, this past July, the Linux desktop market share reached an all-time high of 4.44%. Last July of 2023, linux was at its lowest point 3.12%. Stackcounter has a chart that compares Linux to macOS, where you see a completely different trend. Macos peaked at 21.01% last November and steadily fell to 14.92% in July of this year.

01:56
Jack lists several possible reasons for this change the growing frustration with Windows 11, the growing frustration with Windows 11, such as forced ads and AI. The continuing rising cost of Apple hardware makes using macOS a challenge for many people, unless you run it in a VM, which means you're running Linux. Yeah, the popularity of the Steam Deck that was definitely one that helped to raise it, and it doesn't hurt that just about any recent version of Linux is viable, even for new users. Now I agree with Jack that it's possible. Linux will hit 5% by the end of 2024 and could even inch closer to double digits by the end of 2025. Jack also states it's also important to understand that that 4.44% could be an underestimate of Linux usage, as StackCounter depends on website trackers to collect data. Since many Linux users go to great lengths to retain the privacy, it's possible several thousands of Linux instances aren't being registered.

03:11
Jack and I both suggest you keep checking StackCounter to see how this trend continues. And I've got two links in the show notes the one for Jack's article and then a second one that Mira Rora and I hope I'm saying that right shared in our Discord, the Club Twit Discord chat. Today. In fact, they've included a link for Club Twit members to follow to his posting of it have you included a link for club members to follow to his posting of it?

03:54 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yeah, you know. So the first thing I think when you say 4.44% is we're going to be in trouble when we get into the 2.22%. Um, but you, you, you've got to. You got to figure that, like Microsoft's um, microsoft's recall has to be a part of this, right. That was the preview thing where they said we're going to take a screenshot of your desktop every 30 seconds and save them forever For AI to process. Yeah, for AI to process. Trust us, it'll be fine. And a lot of people were like nope, I'm not doing that. How about this Linux thing? It's got to be part of it.

04:23 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
So personal experience from supporting end users, small business users and such, is that even the professional versions of Windows 11 still have all of those Microsoft specific ads. On Windows Weekly they talk about it quite often because it's one of the pet peeves. But you have things like Office 365 and you still get pop-ups saying, hey, you should get Office 365. And I actually got an angry text. It wasn't angry at me, but it was like get this blank, blank, blank. Xbox off of my laptop from a business owner.

05:02 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yeah, yeah, laptop from a business owner, yeah, yeah. So I remember. I remember the days of windows xp and windows 7 uh, and even windows 10 was not as bad as it is now, but xp and 7 for sure where you would go into the machine and you would look for like for a business machine. You would look for any game and you would uninstall it and like if a game installed itself, you had a problem. Like something just installed itself, this machine may have a virus on it. Let's go, you know, let's check all the things, make sure it's clean. And now Windows just does that for you, automatically, not cleaning it off. No, windows will just install crap for you automatically, and it's not even good stuff, it's literally crap Like it's not even good stuff, it's literally crap Like it's not good.

05:46 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
And the other thing, I was interested in these specific statistics. You mentioned, you know, the uptick due to the Stream Deck and we've talked about it quite a bit, but this was specifically talking about desktop usage and website access. So I was wondering if the Stream Deck really was part of these numbers, because if it's not, the numbers are even better than we might assume.

06:07 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I bet the Steam Deck is not directly in these numbers. But at the same time you have to figure that the Steam Deck is working as the gateway drug, we shall say, for a lot of users. They get a Steam Deck and you know, oh, this thing is cool. Oh, wait a second. This thing runs. It's got a browser, it's well, so that's part of it. But on the other hand, this thing it it runs arch. I wonder if I could put arch on my desktop and don't do it. But you know you, there have to be people that that think that and they get into the desktop that way.

06:43 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Um, so it's all good, it's very cool yeah, if it wasn't for the couple of applications that um have to run on windows and even though you could do a virtual machine or something like that, it's still just too complicated for an end user really um, there'd be a lot more people converting to linux, just in my personal experience yeah, does that mean we'll have more people compiling the kernel?

07:08 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Probably not.

07:13 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Especially not if all of the hackers are fed up.

07:17 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
So I've got a story about this and you guys may have seen this in the news. There's been a bit of an airing of dirty laundry around the linux kernel and the rust hackers and uh, okay, we'll, we'll get into it. Just to, there are just to. To set the stage, I will say I think there are some legitimate complaints and there is some um, overblowing of things, and I think there are. There is a and there is some overblowing of things and I think there is a new generation that is learning some of the lessons that the rest of us learned when we first tried to push code to an open source project. So what has happened is one of the Rust Linux kernel maintainers has written a notice and said I'm done, I'm stepping down from the kernel, I'm not going to do anything more with Rust in the kernel, and not because of technical issues, but just because I am tired of trying to fight against the maintainers that are there, and this was Wedson. Wedson Almeida fijo, a microsoft engineer, been doing rust contributions to the colonel for several years, including the pharonix article here, and uh says he is removing himself as a maintainer of the rust project. He's retiring, he just doesn't have the energy enthusiasm to do it because of the non-technical nonsense, um, and the.

08:44
I've seen other people, uh, like asahelina, for instance, uh echoed some of these basically saying, um, there's been a lot of pushback from this the old school c developers in the kernel because they really, among other things, they don't want to be forced into learning rust, they are happy with c. They don't want to be forced into learning Rust, they are happy with C. They don't want to have to learn Rust. And people have gotten very passionate about this on both sides of the argument, which is fine. Personally, I think people have jumped to Twitter and Tumblr and all the various places and complained about it a little too much there, and then the article actually have linked to it's via for Ronix, who's done good work on covering this, and it is David Arley has a blog post about this and he basically says look, there are, like, there are wayfinders, there are road builders, there are road maintainers, like the people in the projects fall into these different categories and some people are blazing a new trail and some people are trying to keep the old trails open, and people are just different and you need to understand that and learn how to work with.

10:03
That, I think, is basically the point that he's trying to make here. Um, and I've just got to say, like to the rust developers, that you're convinced that you're right which you you may very well be, I'm not arguing that but you're convinced that you have had a? Um, a breakthrough. You figure something out, you have a, you have a change set. That is just the best thing since sliced bread and you go to push it in and the people you're trying to hand it to reject it and you think it's terrible. Join the club. This is how working with teams works, not even just open source. This is how working with other people works, and sometimes, yes, it is extremely frustrating and sometimes it's dumb, but like this is. This is just how real life works.

10:50
Sometimes your ideas get shot down for bad reasons and, uh, I would just generally say, going and airing that dirty laundry on the internet for everybody else to see is not necessarily the best way to go about things. Not necessarily the best way to go about things. I also think that we will see that this will be something the Colonel will have to work through. I imagine Torvalds is going to come along and say guys, let's be a little bit more friendly to the Rust guys. They're trying their hardest. Don't be so mean to the Rust peeps, but I'm pretty sure that this will eventually get worked through.

11:25
And if not, as someone else I follow on Twitter, slash X, likes to point out, there is a Rust kernel out there. Redox OS is literally a Rust-based kernel, and so when you tell Rust developers that if they want Rust in the kernel so much, they should go make their own, he makes the point on Twitter. We are, we totally are Redox redox. It exists. Come take a look at it. It's great, you should use it. So it's. It's a lot of drama. I have a feeling that it's going to work itself out and I'm not too terribly concerned.

11:56 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Um, but it's drama on the internet yes, and if we can't talk about drama, what can we talk about?

12:02 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
we would be so bored, without any drama to talk about.

12:11 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I have a couple of thoughts about it. First, I am not a C programmer, I am not a kernel developer, I'm not a Rust programmer, so I am an expert on this conversation by Internet standards, conversation to start with by internet standards, um. But I've heard that there is some valid concern about um, the transition in long-term support from c to rust. That you know. It's one thing to come up with this awesome patch, but once it's in the kernel now the kernel maintainers have to maintain it and there may not be the brain trust and of course there is resistance to learning. New things change. I recognize all that.

12:49 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
But there is some potentially valid concern about moving too quickly and getting so much that there's not enough brain trust to be able to maintain you don't want to get code into the kernel that hardly anybody understands, which that's, ironically, one of the things that the Rust people are complaining about that there's already C code in the kernel that only four or five people really fully understand. So I mean there's a, it's a balance and there are valid points being made on all sides, and you just have to be patient and slowly work through these things and you have to convince people and be patient and be nice to people Like this is how team building works.

13:29 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
And if one person doesn't want to work with you fork it.

13:35 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
That's well. So yeah, I mean good luck forking the Linux kernel, and people fork the Linux kernel all the time. But good luck forking it and getting a lot of people to follow you. That's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

13:49 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I think the kernel on Redux OS is the closest thing to a Rust fork. I mean, it's obviously not because it's not sharing any code, it's a rewrite.

13:56 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yeah, so it's humorously, redux OS is doing to the Linux kernel what the Linux kernel did to Unix. Yeah, so I mean, is there a future where Redox OS is the popular thing and Linux itself is less? But maybe I don't know. Um, we are still we the. The end of that book is not yet written, as they say, ronnie points to anyone that knows what that's a reference to.

14:28 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
But yeah, ken may have a story later in the show that may show what could happen oh, there you go, alright, so let's talk about CentOS and Azure Linux what oh we're?

14:46 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Let's talk about CentOS and Azure Linux. What oh? We're just mentioning CentOS. We're not actually here to talk about CentOS. So LinkedIn. For anyone that is not aware, Microsoft purchased LinkedIn a couple of years ago, so LinkedIn is owned by Microsoft. Microsoft also owns this whole cloud business called Azure, and they.

15:13 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
So we have to let folks know Azure is Microsoft. These days, Like if you look at where they're making their money, Azure is where Microsoft is making its money Continue money.

15:28 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Azure is where Microsoft is making its money Continue. Absolutely, it's completely correct. Yes, so they have their own version of Linux. They used to call it CBL Mariner and they renamed it to Azure Linux. So LinkedIn has migrated from CentOS to Azure Linux in the Azure cloud. Why is? Or the couple of reasons that this is interesting and, I think, the biggest thing that I like to see about it. You can be pro-Microsoft, you can be anti-Microsoft. You can agree with decisions they've made, you can disagree. I think we all have various positions on all of that stuff. But because LinkedIn is Microsoft owned, that means possibly and because of the size of LinkedIn, this means that it's possibly the largest dog investment into running their own thing.

16:31
That they're developing that feedback loop is very important, and they didn't just simply migrate to it. They came in with their own changes. For example, azure Linux did not support XFS file system. Linkedin runs on XFS, so they didn't switch file systems. They brought XFS into Azure Linux. They, just as a side note, linkedin found that XFS worked with software. Raid was what was working best for their needs, and they have a link to Foronix article which summarizes it, but then it also links to the LinkedIn engineering blog post if you really want to get into the nuts and bolts.

17:14
And they sum it up at the end by saying the migration of LinkedIn's fleet to Azure Linux was a strategic decision that entailed numerous considerations and challenges. Its successful execution yielded substantial benefits, ranging from cost savings to enhanced security flexibility. You know all the important bullet points, but they do get into. You know, some of the technical issues that they had to address to be able to migrate their stack. One of the interesting another interesting thing that they ran into was they ran into some challenges because Azure Linux does not have a GUI on top of it and they ran into some problems around that. So the developers have to rely on IDE integration remotely connecting to the Azure Linux servers versus. I guess what they were doing before was actually running CentOS with a GUI on top of it for some of their development environments which is all that stuff is interesting.

18:09
It's interesting to see how you handle things at scale.

18:13 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yeah, so it's just a neat story. It's funny, the IDE that has remote development, that's VS Code. Oh yeah, which I'm going to say, that part of vs code is pretty cool, like I do a lot of development on a raspberry pi, from where vs code is running on my desktop and it uses the ssh plugin to connect and run everything on the raspberry pi and I did the same thing with all the linux.

18:37 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Yeah, it's nice it's real cool.

18:42 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
uh, I did not know that Azure Linux was RPM based. I probably knew this at some point, but that sort of surprised me just now finding it. So I guess that means that there wasn't a huge change going from CentOS to Azure Linux. At least that part of the tooling was still the same. Yeah, cool, very cool. Good for them. I can't see myself running it anytime real soon, but I don't know, maybe install it somewhere just to play around with um other things that we might install to play around with. What about ubuntu, ken? What is new in ubuntu 24.04.1?

19:21 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
yes, in fact I've got to thank Marius Nestor for writing about canonical publishing Ubuntu 24.04.1 LTS this week for all official flavors of Ubuntu. This first point release to the long-term supported Ubuntu 24.04 operating system series is designed as a collection of security patches and software updates that have been released since April of this year. It allows those who want to deploy Ubuntu 24.04 LTS on new computers without having to download hundreds of updates from the repositories during and after the installation. During and after the installation. Also, it makes it easier to join Ubuntu machines into Windows Estates with Active Directory integration and finally, enables upgrades from Ubuntu 22.04 LTS systems. This release was delayed two weeks by some high-impact upgrade bugs that are now resolved, thankfully. I recommend reading Marius's article to find out why the next point release will be more exciting, and I've also got a link to his article saying how you can now upgrade 22.04 to Ubuntu 24.04 in our show notes.

20:42 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yeah, interesting. Now is this the one that they held it because of the way it lined up with the kernel.

20:49 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Not that so much, but because there were some bugs that affected the actual upgrade.

20:56 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Oh, that's never good.

20:59 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
We need to get those resolved before we ship this. Yeah, yeah.

21:02 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Don't ship it broken. The shutdown is next month, so the next release after september, like late october, should be the one that's lining up with the kernel releases.

21:11 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Gotcha, gotcha, um, it's interesting go ahead and there's also some talk that they may delay, because I haven't seen anything saying that it has been released. The last point release for 2204 for a little bit. Because it looked like they were going to both be released on the same day previously.

21:34 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Yeah, and they were concerned they wouldn't have enough development or testing around it. Basically, their testers would be stretched too thin if they released them both. So they delayed one by two weeks was my understanding from reading the articles.

21:48 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
You know what's crazy. We're like one to two months away from 2410 coming out. How did that happen?

21:57 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
The year marches on.

21:59 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I'll tell you what man. It's just crazy.

22:02 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
All right. Well, before we leave this, one thing that Ken mentioned was the support for Active Directory support in Ubuntu. With these updates and we love to, you know, pick on Microsoft and say you know, why would you want to? But when you're looking at the business side of things, this kind of support is really beneficial to moving the ball closer to being able to do a full transition where it works.

22:27 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Yeah.

22:28 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I've done this once before, making a Linux machine a part of a Windows domain, and it was fiddly then. It's been several years ago. It was real fiddly then. I understand that some of the platforms have made it a lot easier. I can see that being a thing that people are going to need in businesses, though, to be able to do that.

22:48 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Personally, how long before we see a Linux-based server being able to support providing Active?

22:56 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Directory. I'm pretty sure that's already possible, right, david? I know with SAM before they were really working on that, and we're way past SEM before by now.

23:06 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Yeah, I mean there may be some really esoteric things that aren't supported, but for basic functionality, like a small work group setting that you want to move to a directory management, yeah, you can do that now.

23:20 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I've not gone and actually played with trying to do that in a long time. Maybe I should. I kind of have. So this is just me the way I take care of IT people. I kind of have this feeling that 10 or fewer desktops doing a full-blown domain is just overkill and you've got to have. You've got to have more. You got to have more seats than that that you're managing for it to really be worth doing anything with the domain. I know other people look at that differently and their cutoff is like well, if you have three or more computers, man, you should really be on a domain. It's fine. I've just had too many experiences over the years of fighting against old Windows machines running domains and it just being a huge pain. I prefer standalone computers for systems that are small.

23:59 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
This isn't a sysadmin untitled show, but I agree, for most small operations, I would say 50 or smaller computers, unless you have a compelling need for it because there's some application or something I do a NAS and some sort of remote management system so that you can update printers and things.

24:23 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Yeah, makes sense how many coffees do you want donated for that?

24:27 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I do not have a coffee link and Rob's not here.

24:32 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
You can donate coffee to my coffee link. That'll be fine. Okay, I'll tell Rob how delicious it was when I finally drank it. And you're using it to support KDE? No, no, I'm using it to support some of my other hobbies.

24:46 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Um, but we can talk about kde yes, so what would you do when a pop-up occurs?

24:53 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
uh, this is probably a question that I'm going to have to answer directly. So, uh, it's, it's a link off to point pointy stick to, uh, nate graham's? Uh, no, it's not, it's in wilder, sorry, um, the it's a link off to gaming on linux. That's what it is, but it is about nate graham's blog and it's about asking for donations and what kde is doing and is about to do. And they're actually going to add something in KDE and it's going to be a pop-up, a notification essentially, and says hey, would you like to donate to KDE to help us keep the lights on? And I think they're sort of already expecting that people are not going to like this. But at the same time, they've been real careful about the way that they're doing it and I think it. I think it comes up like only once and you dismiss it and you tell it not to come, come up again and it just it'll never bug you about it again. Um, yeah, they've got a picture of what it's going to look like, you know. So it says request for donations, donate to kde, kde needs your help. Donations fund development, blah, blah, blah, and you can either say donate or no thanks. And uh, as he says.

26:08
I know messages like this could be controversial. Yeah, sure can, um, but I I really. I think they're trying to do it the right way, and most people do understand that developers need to eat and it costs money to host servers and services. Um, I don't have a huge problem with this. I think they're going to avoid making it nagware. I do not foresee KDE going the way of Microsoft and automatically installing applications or putting advertisements in your search bar or any of that stuff. I don't have a huge problem with it. I figured we would cover this, but hopefully this is not going to be too controversial. I know people are going to get bent out of shape about it because some people are just looking for something to be bent out of shape about, but other than that, who cares?

27:00 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I read through the article and what I read said they were talking about a pop-up that happened once a year.

27:08 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yeah, it's real. It is very, very rare that it happens. It does not bug you about it and I imagine I'm pretty sure there's going to be somewhere, someplace where you can go in there and say don't, don't do this again. Yeah, if, if there's not easily, it is open source, because you could always just go in there you could just go in there and break it, uh, change something under the hood to make it make sure it never comes up. You know, go go, set the the timer to the year 2048, and then you won't have to worry about it.

27:44 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Do you know anything about? Because the other thing that they just kind of briefly touched on in the article was them working on a next generation KDEOS, kdeos, kde OS. Do you know anything about that?

27:57 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I mean.

27:57 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I did, and I was just curious.

27:59 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Not other than the fact that they're always working on the next generation of KDE, right Like I don't know that that's some big think-take, skunk work sort of project, not that I'm aware of.

28:15 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I just I guess it was the choice of OS, you know operating system, that made me get a little like, ooh, what are you talking about? But I guess they're just. I mean, if you view like KDE Plasma as a KDE OS, which I guess you could make that argument.

28:35 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
It sort of is. I would like to see KDE Plasma be on top of Fedora instead of on top of Ubuntu, but that's just me. They do run into some problems sometimes with shipping a really old kernel in Ubuntu, but so far nobody over at KDE has taken me up, so we're not. We're not going to see that anytime soon.

28:54 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
All right, hey, we've had. You have an option go ahead, go ahead all right, I was gonna say we have had other companies listen to us on uls, so kde, here is your call it's true, make, make a fedora spin of neon.

29:12 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
There you go. That'll be'd be great. Everybody will love it. Everybody will love it. All right, let's talk about the other.

29:19 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I interrupted, ken, okay.

29:22 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Ken make your point. Well, I forgot what I was going to say.

29:27 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
All right, david, tell us about WireGuard, the other sysadmin tool.

29:32 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
No, I was going to talk about. Well, first off it was Wireshark and I've got Valky next.

29:37 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Sorry, Okay, never mind, then Talk about Valky, we could talk about.

29:43 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I will find a story about WireGuard for next week. So I've got an article from the New Stack that talks about, or the headline is Valkey is a different kind of fork. And if you've heard me talk about Valkey in the past, I've used Redis in the past, valkey forked Redis due to some changes that the Redis organization made and I am very much a big Valkey proponent. So of course, since we're talking about it being a different kind of fork and why it is, I had to bring it to your attention. So there was in Hong Kong this week at KubeCon plus CloudNativeCon plus Open Source Summit, china plus open source summit china.

30:38
Um, there was a linux kernel developer, dirk hondell, if I'm pronouncing that correctly and if not my apologies um, and longtime open source leader. Um, he, he said he's not a valky developer but he is a Valke user and fan and he went and he did a speech about Valke and just kind of summarizing the whole process and why he supports it, why he believes it's different. So we kind of talked about forking a little bit earlier in this show. Many times people fork something because they're not happy with the direction of the software, or they want some feature that's not in there or they don't want a feature that is in there. In the case of Redis, he said that and obviously the community agrees. But Redis did a bait and switch with the Redis code and that's because they made an all too common business failure. They didn't realize that open source is not a business model.

31:44
So, they built their business model on the code itself, whereas the business model around open source is all about services and add-ons and support, and the code itself is not your business model. And so when they realized that hey, we're focused on the code and we're not making any money off of it, they did a bait and switch on the licensing and they made enough people upset that their move did not just cause a fork. It did not, that their move did not just cause a fork, it actually caused a complete fracturing of the system and Valky was born. So two thirds of the former top Redis maintainers and developers switched to Valky, switch to VowKey. In addition, aws, which is Amazon, google Cloud and Oracle, under the Linux Foundation's auspices all switch to VowKey. So the open source community as a whole basically said that the changes in licensing were unsustainable and we're doing it the right way.

32:57
In addition to that, valkey should be the better technical choice moving forward, because one of the things Redis was doing was they were trying to be very stable and not break anything, but that also meant not change anything. That also meant not change anything. Valkey's next release, which they just recently announced, valkey 8, they are already doing significant re-architecting to create a more sophisticated, multi-threaded approach to the IO operations and a lot of other changes that Redis really wasn't tackling. And these are the same developers. So not because the developers didn't want to, but because the organization was saying no, we don't want to break anything, we don't want to change anything. So it's interesting to see Valke 8 does maintain full API and CLI compatibility with Redis so you can convert from a Redis installation directly to Valkey.

33:59 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
They aren't making any breaking changes yet, but they are making a lot of enhancements and continuing to move that memory key value storage database forward and it's very impressive to see I think it's hilarious that redis made their announcement about the license change during the kubecon europe, where most of the companies were already together talking about these things and like, oh yeah, by the way, we're changing away from open source. They're all like, oh well, we're all, we're all here, let's just go ahead and fix this, and that's why that's how they got it off the off the ground so fast and got so much consensus around it. I think that's.

34:40 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
I think that's great, it's quite fun nice thing is, if you've got the gumption and know how you might be able to uh set up a uh redis to vavalkia transfer service. Make a little bit of money that way.

34:56 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
None is needed. In fact, in the article I didn't pull that part out, but in the article he said that he actually did the switch and had exactly 10 minutes of downtime.

35:09 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I bet you that there would still be organizations out there that would be willing to pay to have someone on call that knows how to fix the things if something breaks.

35:19 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
And even Von Nichols, in that same paragraph, went on to say that companies are also offering Redis to Valky services.

35:25 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Yeah, yeah.

35:27 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Crowded space. Of course Of course it will be. Yeah, that's one of those things that's real scary. It's like, all right, we're going to migrate the database over. It's like, oh, didn't you just clench. It's like, until it's done, like, oh, I hope this doesn't break, having somebody on speed dial that can help you out is Especially an in-memory database, that's even so.

35:51 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
How long before Redis archives their source code I don't know.

35:58 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
It's going to depend upon how many businesses and how many users find value in still using the old, more stable fork. I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes, when something forks like that, both sides of the fork continue going on, and sometimes, when it forks like that, the old one just withers on the vine.

36:21 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
And we've got another story about a fork coming up.

36:24 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
We have lots of forks today. Yeah, I find it funny in this article, though they do mention the idea you can fork the Linux kernel if you want to. Just good luck with that. Alright, ken, let's talk about Mono and Wine, and this is a long and weird story. Yeah, david.

36:47 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
I was going to say so in this case, this is not a fork, this is a merge right, or the inverse of a fork.

36:54 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I mean, it's a lot of things ken give us. Give us a lowdown on this okay.

36:58 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
um well, jonathan, as you said, we are do have a long and weird life here, and we're hearing this from both kevin purdy, writing for ars technica, and michael larabo of Pharonix, and basically we're talking about Microsoft's recent donation to the wine community. I was going to say Microsoft didn't donate money, but an intellectual property known, as you said, jonathan, as a mono project. For those of y'all that aren't aware of it, it's an open source framework that brought Microsoft's NET platform to non-Windows systems. Winehq will be the steward of the MonoProject upstream code. To give you some more background, kevin writes about the MonoProjects, beginning under and I apologize if I don't say this correctly Miguel de Acasa, the co-creator of the GNOME desktop.

38:03
De Acasa led Xemian, originally called Helix Code, aiming to bring Microsoft's then new NET platform to Unix-like platforms. Then, in 2003, novell acquired Xemian I'm going to jump ahead here to 2011, where Novell threw its SUSE subsidiary and Xamarin, another company, reached an agreement in which Xamarin would take over the IP and the Novell customers using Mono inside the Novell SUSE. Then, in 2014, microsoft open sourced most of the NET. Two years later, in 2016, microsoft acquired Xamarin, entirely, putting Mono under an MIT license and bundling Xamarin offerings into various open-source projects. Where does this leave Mono today? The Wine community may archive the code or, if recent updates to the mono repository are any indication, it may still have some life in it. In fact, yesterday I was looking and there was a couple of updates that I saw that were only about nine hours old. I don't know how important they were, or if they were just something preparing it for archival, or maybe merging what Wine's been using as their fork of mono into this old mono code. Uh, all I can say is only time will tell yeah, so it's.

39:46 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
it's kind of important to understand that the the reason this is not very important is because NET, like it, natively supports Linux. Now Microsoft has made NET a lot better than it used to be in the old days, and you can actually be an open source NET developer now and still have some dignity and self-respect.

40:10 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
So you can create NETs. Use a NET framework to create things under Linux to run on Windows.

40:20 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Or to run on Linux. You can use NET as your cross-platform framework. Now it's actually a cool framework. People genuinely like it now, rather than just being forced to use it. So Mono is generally just for running the old applications, and so it really is a good fit inside of Wine, because that's getting to be about the only place where you would use it anymore, and things like Silverlight just really don't exist anymore and the old NET that only run with Mono. You're talking about very old applications at this point and it's just yeah, it's just really not. It's not modern software anymore and so putting it into Wine it makes sense. I mean, so Wine already had their fork of it and so this doesn't change a whole lot on the Wine side, because they were already doing development on their fork of it to make old Windows stuff work under Linux. It just really now all it does is it gives them the trademark so that they can actually call it mono and they can be the upstream and not have to worry about anybody else.

41:22 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
So they'll take their fork upstream it and that fork becomes their current mono source.

41:30 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I don't know if there's a term for that. It's something that you see happen every once in a while, when the fork becomes the upstream. There's a term for that? It's something that you see happen every once in a while when, when the fork becomes the upstream. Is there a term for that? I don't know if there is a term for that. I'm streaming the fork or I don't know. There's there may be a term for that. If not, we should come up with one. I'll I'll workshop, we'll workshop it after the show and see if we can come up with a term for that, because it happens every once in a while.

41:52 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Quippy should come up with a term for it and make it the show title.

41:57 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
No pressure though, no pressure, all right, oh, let's talk about Cosmic, this will be fun. So, actually, cross plug. I interviewed Carl Richel on Floss Weekly this week about Cosmic, and Rob joined me there. We had a lot of fun with it and talked a lot about what to do with Cosmic and things that they found, and it was just generally a very positive take. Right, like we on Floss Weekly, we do not do gotcha sort of interviews. We do not ambush people. We are there to support your project that you're doing. Unless we find out that you're doing something particularly troublesome, we're there to cheer your project on.

42:43
And that's been the take that a lot of people have had about Cosmic. It's like, oh, it's really cool, it's new and there are bugs, but it's really cool, we're excited about it. And so I found a different take on cosmic this week and I I think it's hilarious. So it's by vaxry, which. So vaxry is a very interesting individual. To start with, um, vaxry is the developer behind hyperland and vaxry has a post, a post here, about his or her. I honestly don't know his or her experience with Cosmic and TLDR. It wasn't actually great. And Vaxxery goes through and says okay, look, here are the reasons why you might be excited about Cosmic and here's why they're all bad reasons. It's like you might be excited about it because it's Rust and he's like that's great if you're a rust cultist, but if you're not a rust cultist, you really don't care. You might really like tiling um, but that's not a desktop environment, that is a. That's just a feature. And then he's like well, it implements what gnome wants. And he says and actually I disagree with him on this one for sure, um because he says well, if you gain any advantage, what gnome wants. And he says and actually I disagree with him on this one for sure, um, because he says well, if you gain any advantage, the gnome could just implement that. And that's. That's actually pretty important, because what, what actually happened with cosmic is the system.

44:06
76 guys had all of these ideas for what they wanted gnome to be able to do, and the gnome developers basically told them we're not really interested in doing any of those things. We, we like gnome to be able to do. And the gnome developers basically told them we're not really interested in doing any of those things. We, we like gnome doing what it does and we're going to go our direction with gnome and we're not going to add any of these features that you guys think are awesome and so like that's. That's kind of the whole point of cosmic um, but I, I, I do like I agree with his, his um, kind of overall point that it's an alpha.

44:37
Cosmic is an alpha, it is an early alpha and it's got a long ways to go before it's actually really a really really good desktop and it's unclear for sure that it will get there and we, we shouldn't worship it Like it's you know the the the best things in sliced bread when it's not. Actually. I was, I was humored by this, I must admit. So don't, if you're going to get worked up over it, just don't read the article. But if you think you can go in there you could be humored about it as well then it's, it's fun and uh, that that's all. I'm a cosmic fan, I like it, but I think he has a point that, uh, it's, it's still early and it's still rough you said that if you're if you're going to get worked up about it, then don't read the article.

45:23 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
This is the internet.

45:24 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Only read the article if you're going to get worked up about it.

45:27 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
No, really don't. It's not actually good for your health to get worked up about stuff all the time. It's really not. I completely agree. Be chill, man. Keep your blood pressure down, keep your stress levels down. Have have a. Have a good time.

45:43 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Don't don't have a bad time on purpose speaking of a good time, let's sniff some packets is it time finally for not wire guard? But a wire shark. But Wire Shark and I also ripped this out of our club discord from Keith S512, who is watching live. So Wire Guard now I did it. Wire Shark released version 4.4. Uh-oh, now we've got the laugh track.

46:34
So, anyway, wire Shark, which I use quite often. I also use Wire Guard, but, holy cow, this is just going to go off the rails. Wireshark allows you to install it on a machine and, using plugins, capture traffic directly but also read PCAP files, which are files containing lists of packets that you sniff off of the network, and it can be extremely useful, especially when you're trying to figure out why things are happening or not happening correctly on your network. So it's always good to see the growth and advancement of Wireshark. Good to see the growth and advancement of Wireshark. And 4.4 includes automatic switching of profiles by associating a display filter with a configuration profile, support for Lua 5.3 and Lua 5.4.

47:34
And Lua is an embedded scripting language that can be used to basically write little code snippets to extend applications. There's a lot of different software packages that embed Lua in them so that you can change the functionality of the program without having to even though it's all you know, it's all open source without having to actually like, modify the source and recompile it, even though it's all you know, it's all open source without having to actually like, modify the source and recompile it. Haproxy is another one of those, and I know that because I was working with it earlier this week. Actually, that embeds Lua, the ability to implement display filter functions as lib Wireshark plugins, the ability to translate display filters to PCAP filters, and that is very useful because a lot of times you don't know what you're looking for, so you need to capture everything on the network, but then you wind up with these really big files. But maybe it's a situation where it's something that reoccurs periodically and you need to nail it down. So if you can get your display filter working, your display filter the way you write that is not the same way you write the packet capture filter, where you're actually filtering the packets coming in out what you need to look for by having a huge capture of all your packets and then using display filters, and then easily convert that to a filter that you can apply directly to your PCAP source, which could be TCP dump on Linux or the plugin which I forget the name of, but it's the one that installs with Wireshark, and so you can actually capture just those packets that you're interested in. So you can capture for a much longer period of time, because you're not getting a bunch of extraneous packets that you don't care about and don't need, which would be filling up your buffer.

49:35
There's a Tshark, custom output fields, a lot of other things. There's also some pretty cool. Well, not cool, but they've done some improvements and fixes to a lot of the graphing functionality, including the IO graphs, the flow graph, voip calls that's something else that Wireshark has built into it If you do anything with VoIP calls. So, like Asterix we talked about it before Asterix is a common PBX software but you can get into situations where you're getting problems in your call, like jitter or packet loss or something, and so Wireshark can actually capture the packets and has built into it functionality to trace those call paths automatically for you. So you find the start and then you just tell it to hey, this is what I care about, and then it goes through the rest of the capture and pulls out the whole entire path and rebuilds it for you.

50:32
So a lot of cool functionality and there's a lot of other things. Additional protocol support has been enhanced and improved. Let's see they did add RDP authentication, redirection, virtual channel protocol, which is RDP-EAR, so that you can hunt that down. The only reason that you need to worry about RDP is because it's used as a horrible attack surface and should not be used on the internet or anybody else. I don't know why you're using it in the first place, but if you are, wireshark can help you debug it. Yeah.

51:16 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I have some very old memories of very early in my career trying to install Wireshark on a misbehaving Windows machine to try to figure out why in the world it was I think it was not printing which old Windows machines and printers were such a terrible combination.

51:33 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
So same as new Windows machines and printers. No.

51:37 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
So Microsoft actually fixed that, to their credit, back in the old days. This is a Windows tidbit, but we're going to cover it. Back in the old days, printer drivers were kernel drivers, and so you would have to have a different printer driver for every version of Windows, and the printer driver ran in kernel space, which was terrible, but that's the way things worked. Finally, microsoft made everybody mad by breaking all the printer drivers, but they actually built an api for printers and now, believe it or not, printer drivers are much, much, much better than they used to be until they run out of ink and you have to buy uh and you try to buy a third party we're talking about the drivers, not the.

52:21
Yeah that's just. That's just. That's printer manufacturers being terrible, not the drivers, um, you know we won't go into that right now, but uh, yeah. So uh, I have. I have waking nightmares still about trying to get printers to work. So anyway, this, this story, was that installed Wireshark on some old machine to try to figure out why in the world the printer wasn't working the way that it was supposed to. And actually it's pretty impressive how performant Wireshark is, even on low machines that are not working very well and low-budget hardware machines that are not working very well and low budget hardware. There must have been a lot of work done on that to try to make Wireshark actually perform well, because it really really does.

53:09
It can throw a lot of data around very easily. It's cool, it's complicated, and I remember you were talking about the packet filtering for view. I remember fiddling with that back in the day and not being able to figure out. Like, how in the world? Like I just want to see the TCP packets from this IP address. How do I do this? Not being able to figure it out? David's laughing because he knows my pain. He's been there. I'm sure it's a little better now. They at least give you some tool tips. But Wireshark little better. Now they at least give you some tool tips. But wire shark's great, it's, it's oh, it's super useful for something. And then one of the things I like about wire shark is it like it's not just. It's not just tcp ip packets, it's not just ethernet like you can do, you can do usb, you can do firewire. Um, I don't know for sure that somebody's done it, but I bet you could do like laura packets through Wireshark.

54:01 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Yeah, yeah, cool stuff you can even run Wireshark from the command line. You can.

54:07 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yeah, yeah, and it's actually pretty useful to be able to SSH into another machine and run the command line version of it, capture a bunch of packets and then just SCP it back over and then look at it in your Wireshark GUI Like that's a really useful workflow to be able to have.

54:22 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
So I just looked it up real quick and LoRa support was added in 2017.

54:27 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Cool, I'm going to have to play with that. Actually Hook up an SDR to it and see if I can. That'd be fun. I'm going to have to go play with that. I do a lot with LoRa these days, yeah, hmm, that'd be fun.

54:42 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
I'm going to have to go play with that. I do a lot with Blu-ray these days. Yeah, my question is what?

54:45 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
does the dash capital F option do In Wireshark? Oh my goodness, I don't know. Off the top of my head, I don't use it that often. Man, I am not a Wireshark expert, I just I use it sometimes.

54:55 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
I just noticed that's one of the things with this version that is going to be supported. It supports the dash capital F option when capturing a file on the command line. Apparently that was one of the issues.

55:08 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I see. I mean we can probably run the man page for Wireshark and no manual entry for Wireshark. I would have to use the command line commands. Anyway, david, we've got a question from IamEvilEric and he wants to know if we're not supposed to use RDP, what should we use for accessing boxes in an office?

55:33 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
So I was being a bit facetious. Rdp inside a private network is generally fine, it's just it should not be open to the Internet. So RDP across a VPN like WireGuard is a perfectly fine way to use RDP.

55:52 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Unless you've got somebody sniffing everything that goes over with WireShark.

55:58 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
You shouldn't be able to. Even with wire shark should not be able to sniff what's inside wire guard, wow, unless it too many wires crossed, unless it's on the same system that's using wire guard well, yes, but if that's the problem, that you have a much bigger problem.

56:16
Yes, okay. So to actually answer the question, if you don't want to use RDP, there is also. Things like VNC works rather well. There are VNC clients for Windows. The same thing applies. Don't put it on the internet. Use a VPN and audit things to make sure that you're not audit your network, to make sure that you're not accidentally exposing either RDP or the other one to the vnc. Thank you to the raw internet, because that's bad. That's how. That's how you get malware installed on your that's how you get ransomware. This is literally how you get ransomware installed on your machine. Um, and then there's also some other, uh, some other options, some some commercial offerings like um. People have good success with Rust Desk, I think. Gotomypc still exists, I think through Citrix.

57:07
Yeah, so there's other options out there if you don't want to use RDP, but don't put them on the internet. That's the important part. All right, I think that is our stories for the week. Yeah, that's the last one. Okay, so let's talk about command line tips, and I think we might all be doing something on the command line this week. So we're going to let Ken start, and Ken is looking for something. Ken, what are we looking for?

57:35 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Well, we're trying to find file systems and let me go ahead and switch to Fancy. And there we go. Everybody can see my command line that's watching and not listening. Well, actually, let me go ahead and switch back, because this is what we're going to try to find.

57:58 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Oh, I found it. It's right there.

58:02 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
But I'm going to find it on the command line. So what I'm talking about is a command called findfs, and what I've got up here on the screen for those of y'all listening is I've got Dolphin open up showing all the devices that are currently connected, and then I've got my command line right below, and this with FindFS. It uses information that we've covered in the past. In fact, in episode 65, I covered three ways to find the UUID of your devices. This time I'm introducing a way that will allow you to search the block devices in your system for a particular file system or partition based on its UUID partition, uuid label or partition label, if you already know it.

59:04
As I said, it's bindFS and it searches based on the tag you specify. Out of the four possible tags, I'm going to use the label equals and, as you see on the screen, I've got bindFS label equals tumbleweed. When I hit enter it gives me the device and if you saw in Dolphin, it's got tumbleweed up there and it gives that. Now the hard drive I'm about to show is called my Passport. That's a label on it. Right now it's not connected, so that's what you get and I'm connecting it up.

59:48
Plug it in plug it in USB is great, isn't it? Yeah, so we're going to wait a minute for it to appear under my devices, and there we see it there. So this time when I run it, it gives me the device that it is. Now that by itself, you could capture that output if you wanted to use that information in a script, or you can also use it to test for a device, and here I'm using the poor man's test. I'm just echoing what the exit status is.

01:00:37 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I could see. I tell you where I would find that very, very useful is. You can run in Linux scripts and bash scripts. You can run inside of a single backtick. You can run a command and then it will just replace the script. It will essentially replace the output of the command with the command itself in the larger command that you're running. The larger command that you're running, and so I could see doing that for things like, well, any script where you want to talk specifically about a driver partition and you don't want to just use the slash dev, because that can move around sometimes, so you want to use the label. I can see that being extremely useful. In fact, I probably have some scripts running on some computers that really need that treatment.

01:01:27 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Now you'll notice, though, if you look in Dolphin, it's not mounted Right. Next week I'm going to go show you a utility that will let you make sure it's mounted oh cool, I I.

01:01:45 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I think there's some crossover happening there. I like it. Okay, david, I like python, but the white space thing just throws me off. Is there? Is there any hope?

01:01:57 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
oh, there's always hope. So I like to bring forth, whenever I get the opportunity to, I like to bring forth something that's going to start a religious war. Python is one of those things. So Python is the well, it's not really new anymore, but it's still the bright, shiny kid on the programming block, especially because of machine learning and data science and things like that, you still see Python has been able to in different programming languages.

01:02:40
One of the complaints that you may have about Python is the way it does its blocking, defining blocks. So, unlike pretty much every other programming language, python uses indention and there is a difference between spaces and tabs, and there is a difference between spaces and tabs. So there can be times. I will admit, as a Python programmer, who you know, I do like Python, I use Python, but I can admit there can be some confusion, especially if you're used to Java or JavaScript or C or pretty much any other language with the specific format of Python. So that is the problem that Python, which is Python, replacing the P with a, b, so it's B-Y-T-H-O-N is designed to resolve.

01:03:38
Basically it sells itself as Python with braces, because Python is awesome but whitespace is awful and basically it's a preprocessor that parses a file and converts braces around blocks of code into the proper Python whitespace and then passes it to the Python interpreter. So you can write Python code. But instead of using indention to define your blocks of code, you can use braces. So if you're more comfortable with braces, it might be a solution.

01:04:17
Personally, I wouldn't use it and a big part of the reason is because it's limited in usefulness. And if you learn Python like this and then go work with any other Python developers, they probably won't have a clue what you're talking about and you won't be able to work on the team very well, won't have a clue what you're talking about and you won't be able to work on the team very well. And if you submit a code patch for a Python project using Python, I guarantee it'll get rejected. Harkening back to the discussion we were having earlier, but hey, it's interesting and it's out there and it's proof that in the open source community, if you can come up with a problem, somebody has probably felt the same itch and made and scratched it somewhere that's, that's great.

01:05:05 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
I, I like stuff like this honestly. Um, you know, we, we talked, we talked here and on floss weekly about, uh, the, the bash thing, um, amber, yes, amber, thank you, and I know that was really cool too, and this, this reminds me a lot of of amber. Um, I, I really like that they, uh, that they have a. They could do it both ways, so you could take a regular python and make it into a bython script and then you could work on it and then convert it back to send it in. I, I like that a lot. I like me some curly braces and I am not a huge fan of the white space thing in Python.

01:05:48 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
So you could use Python and then take the Python generated codes to submit for your patches. Yep, yep.

01:06:01 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
All right. So I've got a tip that I'm kind of surprised we haven't talked about, and that is gh, which is github, which is the github command line client, and uh, so it's installable in most places because it's actually open source. Do you believe, um? And you can? I should check that before I say that. I think that's the case. I know. I did just install it here on my Pop OS without any problems, so it's at least available on a lot of systems. I don't know for sure that it's entirely open source. Regardless, it is a neat tool.

01:06:34
While David was talking, I went ahead and logged in. So the three commands that you will use to really get started with it are gh auth status, and that will let you know if you're logged in or not, and then you can run gh auth login, and that is how you actually get your user account logged in to tie your local machine on the command line to your GitHub account. And then, of course, there are a bunch of other things you can run, but just to make sure that that's working, gh repo list, and that will list all of the repositories in your personal GitHub account, and it's pretty neat. Now, of course, you can basically do all of the same things with Git. You can set it up, but there's a few things that GH will let you do, specific to your GitHub account, that you can't do with just regular Git. So definitely something to be aware of.

01:07:28
Messing with GitHub from the command line Definitely useful, alright, well, we've made it through our tips and we have covered the news. I think it is time to let the guys plug whatever they want to. We'll let Ken go first. Any ending thoughts for us, or a plug?

01:07:47 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
Well, now that I'm unmuted, I did want to plug the link I've got in the show notes. David, last week you talked about LibreOffice's latest release, so I thought it would help if I pointed out where you can find tutorials on all the core tools of the LibreOffice suite. There's a magazine, both print and digital edition, called LibreOffice Expert 2024-25 that's available through Linux New Media Shop, along with both print and digital copies of Linux Magazine, a Linux Magazine Archive DVD containing issues 1 through 262, and some special editions containing cool Linux hacks and even a GIMP handbook. The link I have there should take you straight to the Linux New Media shop homepage and let me just double check that.

01:08:56 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Yes, I didn't know there was still any of the any of the linux magazines that was still in print.

01:09:02 - Ken McDonald (Co-host)
That's actually really cool uh, they've even got uh admin, persist admins yeah but it looks like the printed copy of those are out of stock uh, so maybe not still in print?

01:09:17 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
hard to say. Still, that's neat, uh neat that some of these are still around. I remember several years ago finally coming to the point where I was like I think I could afford to subscribe to one of the Linux magazines and it was like the next month that they stopped printing it and I'm like, well, okay, nevermind, the future is digital, I guess. All right, david, anything you want to plug?

01:09:39 - David Ruggles (Co-host)
Well, we got to have some fun on today's show and we actually both Ken and I directly quoted some of our great club members. So if you're watching this and you are not a club member, scan that thing right over that way and join us and Jeff is not here today. So, in honor of Jeff and it's possible he's done this before, but maybe not three things are certain death, taxes and lost data. Guess which occurred.

01:10:14 - Jonathan Bennett (Host)
Oh the combination of those things is particularly bad. Yeah, it really is All right. Thank you guys for being here. I appreciate it, and thank you to everyone that caught us live, those that watch us on the download. We sure appreciate it. Thank you all for being here. If you want to find more of my work, you can check out Hackaday. That's where the security column goes live every Friday morning and that is also where Floss Weekly lives now and we have a lot of fun over there. This past week we did talk with Carl Richel about Cosmic and it was a really good show. You should go check it out. Other than that, don't forget about Club Twit. As David already said, it's about the price of a cup of coffee per month and you should join the club. We will see you all next week on the Untitled Linux Show. Thanks,