This Week in Google 265 (Transcript)

Leo Laporte: It's time for TWiG - This Week in Google, Jeff and Gina are here. We'll talk about the big Samsung announcement, what cloud security means to Google, and Emil Dash will join us to talk a little bit about the notion of public versus private. it’s all coming up next, on TWiG.

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Leo: This is TWiG - This Week in Google, episode 265. Recorded September 3, 2014

You Can't Handle the Nudes!

This Week in Google is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one platform that makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website or online portfolio. For a free two week trial and ten percent off, go to Squarespace.com and use the offer code TWIG. And by, Personal Capital. With Personal Capital, you'll finally have all your financial life in one place and get a clear view of everything you own. Best of all, it’s free! To sign up, go to PersonalCapital.com/TWIG. And by, Smart Things. The easiest way to create a smart home. SmartThingz lets you control your home using your smartphone, from anywhere. For ten percent off any home security solution, visit SmartThings.com/TWIT and use the code, TWIT10. it’s time for TWiG - This Week in Google, and of course as always this wouldn't be TWiG without the great Gina Trapani of ThinkUp, always great to have her, also the host of All About Android. And she got up early with me this morning. Not so early for you, but nine am your time, six am ours, to do the Samsung event. Good to see you.

Gina Trapani: Yes. Good to see you, hello again.

Leo: it’s really nice to have you and Mike Elgin and we did a special, which is available now on our feed... We'll talk a little bit about what Samsung announced, because it is Android focused. Also here, Jeff Jarvis. Couldn't do it without him, professor at the city university of New York, of journalism. He is at Buzzmachine.com, where he blogs. It’s great to have you again, Jeff. And we brought in Gina's partner, Anil Dash.

Anil Dash: Hello everybody.

Leo: It’s so nice to have Anil here. If you're not familiar with Anil, you should be. He's been involved in the community for so long, I mean, your tweets often are the conversations you have on Twitter... Are so important, are so invaluable. I became aware of Anil when he was an evangelist for SixApart, right?

Anil: Yeah, that was like a decade ago.

Leo: Has it been that long?

Anil: Almost.

Leo: Yikes. Where else have you been?

Anil: A bunch of stuff. I was in the music biz for a while, newspaper biz for a while. And of course the last several years has been working with Gina on ThinkUp, and that has been super exciting and fun.

Leo: Really neat. So are you the founder and CEO?? What is your...?

Anil: Co-founder, with Gina... And um, yeah, we started the project as sort of an open source thing we were doing while working non-profit, and it’s just snowballed and grown. I think TWiG folks especially probably know a little bit about ThinkUp, but it’s been really really fun, to kind of watch everybody jump on board and I think just the last month I feel like we've done the best. New features, and exciting stuff around it, so that's been the most fun I've had while working on this, even for the past couple of years.

Leo: And of course, Anil is well known as a blogger at dashes.com, right?

Anil: Yup, yup. And I've been contributing at EDM and I used to write for Wired...

Jeff Jarvis: The free sampling lead to growth?

Anil: Yeah, yeah. it’s been... it’s one of those things where you sort of cross your fingers and you hope that you're talking to the right people that are going to understand what you're making, when you're making your project. And I think Fourchan, when you talk to the TWiG audience and they're actually curious and interested it’s nice.

Leo: So what's the story with this Prince blog post from last month? From July? I wanted to ask you, what is going on? You have a very long blog post...

Anil: Yeah, so... I'm a fan of Prince, in particularly I like his music, right? And, but... I almost never write about him, all my friends that are really, "Oh you're a huge fan..." And he does something and they sort of say, "Oh, you're going to write about it." And I pretty much never do. And last month, and I’ll apologize in advance to all of us that are going to feel the pain of this statement. Last month was the thirtieth anniversary of Purple Rain.

Leo: Oh my god. Thirtieth anniversary, wow.

Anil: Yes. Yeah, thirty years. And so I thought, what would be something fun to do about the anniversary and everybody sort of knew it was a big album, it sold a lot of tickets as a movie, fairly obvious things. And what I did, instead was because this is... I'm okay at technology, I'm pretty good at Prince. I wrote about how...

Leo: Your secret power is Prince.

Anil: Totally, totally. I wrote about how the song Purple Rain came together, and it was basically, you know a good five, ten years of Prince's career to sort of come together on this thing and how did all the members of the band contribute to it, and what were the aspects of it... But I actually cut some stuff out, that was about how the housing policy and zoning regulations in Minneapolis at the time influenced... The song being created, but other than that pretty much everything else is in there that could possibly shape the song. And it was one of those, like, I've been meaning to write this for about twenty years so let me get it out there. Response has been great, for music it has been really nice, and for everybody else they sort of politely distance themselves, it was great.

Leo: It reminded me of Wendy and Lisa, who I haven't thought about in thirty years. Wendy who will be celebrating her fiftieth birthday this year...

Anil: Yeah, but they're fantastic.

Leo: Are they still around? Are they still...?

Anil: Yeah, they do music composition. They have a special Emmy this year, they composed for a TV series. They're really active on Twitter and Facebook. And really just sort of smart and engaging the fans.

Leo: I'm glad to see that. I'll have to find them on Facebook. Not that I'm... A big Facebook fan. So, Robert Scoville came and he had been saying, challenging me, saying, "You're doing it wrong, Facebook..." He literally said, "Facebook is going to be it. In a year, you'll come back to me, saying you were absolutely right. There is no other social network, nothing else matters. Facebook is number one." And I said, you're crazy. I mean Google Plus is so much better. He said that's because you're doing it wrong. So on Sunday he came in and we recorded an hour, and we were going to release it as a triangulation later this month but there's been so much interest I think we've got to move that up because people really want to see this. He showed me how to go through Facebook, how to categorize everybody, how to give Facebook... It turns out, if you are assiduous about giving Facebook signals about what you want, Facebook, he says, "Its artificial intelligence, there's a lot of smart software behind Facebook, to give you what you want, if you just give it enough signals." And so I did that... I'm still not sure if I'm getting a great experience, but, I'm giving it a try.

Anil: A very bold Robert Scovill prediction that Facebook will be a popular social network.

Leo: I think it is kind of bold. I keep waiting for Facebook to go away. He convinced me to put Facebook back on my mobile device, and messenger...

Anil: I don't know. Any place you get a billion people showing up is probably not going away anytime soon.

Leo: I guess. There's the network effect... I don't know, anyway it’s still just as goofy as it was, to me. In fact, the saddest thing is that Google+ is getting more like Facebook, not less. I don't like it. I've decided, I'm going to... I've registered the domain names, and I think this is what the world needs is a verified social network... Google can't do it, because of the tying the Google services into this real personality but anybody else could, where you have to send me a driver's license picture and today's newspaper and I can then demonstratively prove it’s you and this is going to be a verified social network. Wouldn't that solve all of our problems with Twitter especially? Jeff, what do you think? I already registered, verified.zone.

Jeff Jarvis: I know a lot of a-holes by name...

Leo: Yeah, but don't you think that if somebody... If you do know who they are, that really tempers that conversation a little bit.

Jeff: Yeah, I mean, thinking about our talk last week... This show does that, and the idea that we're acting as if we're in a crowded space, when in fact we're in this wide open space and you look at Twitter and say, "Oh my god, I've got to talk to those people!" Well, it’s not actually that many people who actually see the tweets, so okay, you can announce things there and do things there, but the world doesn't demand that you're there.

Leo: We know that now, thanks to Twitter analytics, how few people see our Tweets...

Jeff: Yeah, so I'm not sure it’s worth all the hubbub and hoohah, um... You know, I remain troubled by the places that come up with difficult people and difficult behavior, and that's really what you're trying to answer. Um... And I don't know whether identity is it. Maybe it’s... Gina had the kernel of it, as is her habit. Mahybe it's more about getting signals about people who are nice people, and people who aren't acting nice. I had a case, where somebody we all love retweeted a... An anti-TWiT troll, who trolled me, and it was to me and that's how I noticed. And this person we love had retweeted it or responded or something, and I said, that's a TWiT troll, and you're feeding him. And our friend said, "OK, great. Thanks for telling me." And I killed the reference, so I think that in a society you kind of band together in a way so I think you're on to something, partially. Which is, you want to know who someone is. But I think there's another thing, which is how we recommend people to each other and what that matters. There's got to be friction, there's got to be loss, which is what Mike Elgin's point was. You have to be able to lose some value by acting like an a-hole.

Leo: Well, there were some a-holes out there this week. This was the week that pictures of a great number of Hollywood celebrities were leaked. Apparently hackers got into their accounts. We think... The best thinking right now, Apple said there's no structural flaw with iCloud or Find My iPhone. These were targeted attacks. And the best thinking is that there was in fact, we know there was a flaw in FindMyiPhone that allowed unlimited brute force style attacks, password attacks. It wasn't what we call rate limited. In other words, most sites if you enter a password and it’s wrong, it tells you but it limits the number of times you could do that or it slows the process down. It makes it difficult to do a high speed brute force attack. Find My iPhone was not one of those. That by the way, was fixed on Monday, after these photos were released. So, the best guest of many, including Jonathan Jodarski is that this brute force attack was used to get the passwords of these celebrities and that their iPhone or iPad backups were stored on iCloud, were then grabbed and it was there that the photos came from. That's a little scary because that means other information, lots of information, was also grabbed in those backups. The photos posted on Fourchan, most sites, including Reddit responded pretty well, even Perez Hilton after initially posting images realized what a mistake that was, pulled it down and apologized, said that, "In the heat of the moment I posted that, but that wasn't a good thing."

Jeff: Which is a really important moment, I think. I saw beginnings of norms being agreed upon here. Now it’s weird to me that we gathered around nude celebrities, not around beheaded journalists...

Leo: A similar thing happened with the beheaded journalist. I think it was a one, two punch,, wasn't it?

Jeff: I think that was a good point, yes, I'll buy that.

Leo: And the second time that the beheading videos went up, they were not nearly as widespread, were they?

Jeff: That's true. That's true.

Leo: I feel like I...

Jeff: Maybe we're getting to some level of norms on this, and that includes the technology services.

Leo: If it gets officially egregious, reasonable people go, "Whoa, wait a minute, let’s just hold on here."

Jeff: Right, right. And... It... Would be wrong to even look. In both cases. So it’s not just about being wrong to post them, or about being wrong just to spread them, it’s about being wrong just to look, I think.

Anil: There's an interesting thing here where people make jokes about nudes leaking, right? And there's this sort of fake distance. One, pretending as if every attractive twenty something year old doesn't have nude pictures somewhere. And two, is if this was...

Leo: Some of us older, uglier fellas do.

Jeff: Oh, Leo. TMI. TMI, Leo. Forbidden visuals. I don't... Now I can't...

Leo: Oh, stop it! You can handle it! You can't handle the nudes!

Anil: Jokes aside, to an approximation everybody has something.

Leo: it’s normal behavior and there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it.

Anil: it’s totally normal. And so there's at least the push back against this sort of joking or, I have a right to see it or whatever, and that's really good. And the second step, the deeper conversation, especially in our context as we're talking about tech, what were the defaults? What were the choices the platform made? Look at the case of Apple, assuming that, you know, Apple is obviously a big player in this for most of these images, you know... What Apple does with your thumbprint, is this really deeply secure design to never let it off your device. Really smart decision about what the default thing it does when it can scan your thumbprint. it’s treated like important private data. And the contrast to the default for iCloud being accessible to not being encouraged that, you know, the rate limiting bug that you described, a whole series of choices, five, six, seven, ten of them, that all could have gone the other way, that would have had an impact here. And they haven't felt the pain of that, and I think it’s interesting because this is happening right before their big announcements next week. One of which we know, from the developer conferences, is going to be about please upload all your photos into the photo roll on iCloud by default, with IOS8. And that's going to be a real challenge for them, because their whole value is simplicity, ease of use, user experience and cool factor. And all that is being threatened by them having made, frankly, the wrong choices about the defaults in security.

Jeff: And the defaults is another way, Anil, I agree, and the same policies. So twitter had a policy previously of trying their best not to delete accounts. And when it came to both the beheading and the photos, they started deleting accounts. And I'm okay with that but now, that forces twitter to say, "Well what is your policy, where are your lines, what are your limits, what are they?" And you're forced to have policies now, which platforms the most likely. They wrote in the guardian, technology companies aren't accountable. I disagree with that strongly, I think they're highly accountable, but they've got to recognize they have to document that accountability.

Leo: I think Apple is going to suffer a big blow from this.

Jeff: The whole Cloud is going to suffer because of the stupidity of the press, making this a Cloud issue. It wasn't a Cloud issue.

Leo: Okay, but to be fair, if you put something on the internet, there is a risk, and I've said this for a long time... That it could go public, by accident, or by flaw. So you should be kind of aware of that. Apple's default was to upload those. I suspect that the people whose pictures were revealed did not even know that they were being uploaded to the cloud. Anybody who has pictures like that probably exerts a little bit of caution about how they get distributed.

Anil: You could do everything right. You could follow the defaults, listen to Apple saying, "Its secure if you do this." You could even do what Apple said, enable two factor authentication, which I think, you know, maybe the four of us have it.

Leo: Your two factor sucks.

Anil: it’s terrible, right? But you could do all of those things right, and still be vulnerable because of the choices Apple made. And they could have been different, it’s not obviously... If something's online, connected, ultimately somebody can crack it. We're talking about reasonable defaults, reasonable security, being less vulnerable to brute force attack, and Apple's made bad choices here and should be held accountable for it. There's nothing wrong with us, I mean, especially when you have this kind of platform, putting some pressure on them saying, "Ok, now there's hundreds of millions of people that all have at least something incriminating..."

Leo: What about the notion that maybe Apple should modify its camera program, as should every company, modify the camera program so that there's a switch, just as there is in your browser, so that this is now going to be private browsing, this is now going to be private photos. Please make sure that these are stored more securely.

Jeff: That's a good idea.

Anil: There's a ton of ways...

Leo: The real solution, and Google's done it quite a bit towards this in Gmail, is end to end encryption. Trust no one, encryption. That before my stuff... There's nothing wrong with putting stuff on the cloud if only I can decrypt it. Right? And Apple needs to give us that tool specifically.

Anil: Yeah, theoretically if you could make the experience good enough.

Leo: And this is the problem, Apple has a huge investment in this notion of a just works. This thing about magic and this is one of the reasons this two factor is so poor is that they... And they... Why they still use security questions, which by the way they implicated in this hack...

Anil: Thumbprint is secure.

Leo: Yeah.

Anil: And it never leaves your device.

Leo: But remember, Apple, we were pretty sure because there's been numerous stories about this, Apple on Tuesday will announce that they have deals with Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Nordstrom and others, to do payments using those services on your iPhone, presumably using touch ID and passbook. Are people going to think twice now, about using this? This is a huge blow to Apple. This couldn't have been timed more poorly, from their point of view.

Anil: Hope so.

Jeff: I think it’s going to hurt Google as well.

Leo: Well, as we talked about on Windows Weekly, Google and Microsoft should step forward and say, "Unlike Apple, if you turn on our second factor, you cannot without this second factor, ID, you cannot get any of your data from our cloud." You can with Apple, that's part of the problem is that you don't need two factor to get the iCloud back.

Jeff: How can second factor, Gina, you talked about this a little bit... How can second factor be made easier, so that people will just... For the default, people would not complain and they'd adopt it, and we'd be... What does it need?

Gina: Yeah, that's a really good question. If I had the answer, I might not be sitting here right now. I'd have a really high paying job at one of these companies.

Leo: Well you lose, we've talked about this on Security Now, when you do end in Trust No One Encryption, you lose some capabilities some people want. The ability to look at your data on multiple devices, for instance. The ability to de-dupe and stuff like that. Those things...

Anil: ... For shifting from an iPhone to an Android or vice versa.

Leo: Right. Right.

Anil: No cloud is going to let you do that, after it’s all encrypted, and say we'll get to it next quarter or next year.

Leo: Right. So you can...

Gina: Something like Lastpass is multi-platform, and doesn't end in encryption, right? I could decrypt locally on whatever I have Lastpass installed, which is across multiple devices... Um, so I mean, it’s possible.

Leo: That's a good point. It is possible.

Anil: I mean, Lastpass is great software, we use it all the time. it’s very reliable. it’s also probably the most challenging user experience of any app I use regularly. And it may be... Just because it’s always, there's always something that feels like a pain.

Leo: Well security is a challenge. That's not Lastpass, that's called security. That's exactly why Apple has been so reluctant I think, to do the completely secure thing. They want it to just work, and that's a tradeoff, between convenience and security. That’s part of the trouble.

Anil: The two factors are something you know and something you have.

Leo: Or something you are, there's three possible factors.

Anil: Right, and then the biometrics. And those things clearly, there's a lot of room to innovate around. There must be better ways than typing in that code that, you know, before the timer runs out on your app.

Leo: There are. Steve is doing squirrel, which is very interesting form of authentication for websites. Steve Gibson. I think there are other ways to do this...

Anil: But I think that's more interesting than, can we make the screen more curved and add one more inch of diagonal...

Leo: But don't you think these companies are doing what people are asking them for, and what they think will sell? A curved screen is something that everybody grasps.

Anil: I think after this week, people will be asking... Yeah, yeah. I think it’s a real question.

Leo: We talked about it on Macbreak Weekly. it’s my opinion that Apple has to grasp the nettle and step forward on Tuesday and say, "Yes. We have always believed in protecting you online and we now know we need to do even better, and here's what we're going to do."

Jeff: What are the odds they're going to say that?

Leo: I think they have to.

Anil: Not Tuesday, but they could say it.

Leo: I think they have to grasp the nettle. I think that it’s not a pleasant thing to do, but if they don't address it there's going to be... Um. This is... Everybody knows this happened, and not everybody is clear on why it happened. I'm not even clear on why it happened or whether Apple is at fault. Apple needs to address this very aggressively. Steve Jobs never would, I know that.

Jeff: Okay. Bets, bets around the table. Bets that they're going to address it, in a blunt and direct way. I say...

Anil: you know, their press releases tend to have less BASS than most. They're a little more direct. There's no way they're going to do it on stage on Tuesday, right? That's all about selling their new phone. No chance. I think what they'll do is they let it cool a while. This is what they did with AntennaGate, and all the other things. They let it cool a while.

Leo: That was a mistake with AntennaGate. That allowed it to flow over.

Anil: Well, for better or worse, this is their pattern. Maybe they changed their pattern, but at least what they do historically, they let it cool a while and come back maybe that Friday after, in the lull between when they announced and when they ship a new device, and say you know, "We hear you loud and clear, security matters. Here's what we're doing steps 1, 2, 3, and X, Y, and Z..." And, you know, by the time the new phone ships we'll have this in place. Maybe they can do that. I think it’s actually the biggest challenge they have, is intro and they can only say, it’s not a big deal if people's passwords got guessed. That can happen to anyone if your password gets hacked, or guessed by somebody. And that resistance is what they have to fight internally. That sort of deny, deny, deny, hope it goes away. Which every big company does.

Leo: I predict that there will be at least an oblique acknowledgement of this, and it wouldn't hurt Apple to say, "We're going to do better. We're committed to doing better. We are going to protect your data." That's their selling point at this point, over Google, is that we are the one place you can put your stuff that's private. And if they can't address that, they don't address that, that's a huge advantage. Look at Apple stock prices today, lost $4.36, almost a 5% drop.

Jeff: Go back to Google. Go back to Google. What can Google do? Why are you saying...?

Leo: This is an opportunity for Google to strike, to say, "We know better. We're geeks." This is, again, nobody says this in an outright fashion, but you make it clear you know, we're the computer scientists. We understand security much better than Apple does, and we offer you a secure solution.

Anil: Do we believe that?

Leo: Well I don't... it’s not one whether you and I believe...

Gina: I certainly do believe it’s a marketing opportunity as Leo said. I mean, I also, like, even though... Not to be a cynic, I think I'm getting a little sick, so I think maybe I'm just a little down. You know, all this has happened before, all of this will happen again. I mean, saying that Perez Hilton, after a little bit, having a revelation, took the photos down, like... This isn't the first celebrity, like, nude leak or sex tape that's ever happened and it won't be the last. Is Perez, really, or Gawker or any sites really in the moment of heat, to get page views, going to not do that again in the future? Like, I have a hard time believing that. Matt Holman two years ago, got hacked. What was Apple's response then? It wasn't nude photos...

Leo: They fixed it.

Gina: They addressed it, right, and it was a combination of Amazon and Apple and Apple did suspend password resets over the phone and whatever. I just, I feel like these things have always happened, they will continue to happen. The systems will iterate, the companies will make statements, but ultimately the whole thing is kind of flawed and we all just decide to live with it, right?

Leo: You know why it’s going to be better? it’s going to get better, Gina, because I think the people are saying, "You know what, this is wrong." And I feel a distinct... but remember in these previous releases there wasn't this kind of... Disgust with it that there is today. And I really feel a distinct shift on this. This was too much, this is out of control. This is wrong.

Anil: Yeah, if we go back to, you know...

Leo: And companies respond to what their customers tell them.

Anil: it’s ancient history but if you go back to the Paris Hilton sex tape which is a decade ago now...

Leo: Generally greeted with salacious excitement and exuberance.

Anil: Right, and it was also sort of people just joking about it.

Leo: Everybody said, "Poor Paris, that is sexual assault, that's a crime..." And that's what people are saying today.

Anil: A very young woman, and all these other things, and I think there's a sort of... There's been a change there. There's obviously still tons of pigs that are reveling in this, and you know, not dismissing that, but saying that there's some shift there. And then, I think after Matt was hacked, is when Apple introduced it’s sort of weak two factor auth on iTunes. They did sort of put out a statement, which at that point was still very rare. They weren't just weighing in on things back then, but they actually responded. Amazon made some changes. Now it is... None of these are solutions, but like in terms of moving the ball forward.

Leo: That's the key.

Anil: It had an impact.

Leo: There's not going to be a fix. But I mean, Gina, I don't remember people saying is it right or wrong to look at these. I don't remember anybody saying that, with Paris Hilton. They're saying that there very much is the thought, you know, you shouldn't even... You're committing.... You're part of a conspiracy, you're part of the crime to look at these. That's a very big shift, don't you think?

Gina: It is, and you know, I wonder... I mean, whatever. I think that it’s like, culturally it’s more acceptable to slut shame Paris Hilton than it is Jennifer Lawrence, for whatever reasons in popular culture. I think that people love Jennifer Lawrence.

Leo: Nobody said, "Gee, poor Anthony Weiner."

Gina: Yeah, people laughed and made fun of him...

Leo: He had agency people...

Anil: He shared his photo, it’s totally different.

Leo: With another person, not publically.

Gina: I mean I often think it has to do with a lot of things, the people involved I think. Matt was a very, you know sympathetic character in his situation. I think Jennifer Lawrence is very sympathetic, I think that whatever. Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, they're just like, "Oh these dummies are famous for nothing, I think they deserve that." And I think that that definitely plays into iit. The optimist in me does want to believe this conversation evolves every reiteration of it, right? But this will continue to happen and I like to think that I surround myself with folks who will speak up about not saying, you know, avoid victim blaming which is what goes on a lot... It still goes on, maybe it’s going on less. I hope so. But yeah. I mean, the whole thing is a bummer. I think it'll continue to happen. And look, you know, are people really going to demand...? There's a data breach every few months, it feels like. A major data breach and all different companies, and I just don't know... I just sort of accepted that thats part of this. Right?

Jeff: Right, but gina, part of what we have to do is change the rest of the architecture, where putting nude pictures aside, just matters of transactional security. Oh my god, they have my credit card number and blank and they can now rob me. Whats wrong with that picture, is that if all you need is a number, you can get... They're still got carbon copies of credit card slips. Thats what we have to change. So a lot of the ways in which a leak causes harm or causes a vulnerability, and come up with solutions from the other side of it.

Anil: Yeah. I'm on the board of the Gate In society research institute which is Danah Boyd's institute for looking at big data and all the implications it has on society. She hosted an event, the White House was doing a report on big data, one of the questions was basically about social security numbers, when they get leaked. And basically, in a room of you know, a hundred experts on big data and me sort of crashing the party. And they're asking what are the odds that ten million social security numbers get leaked, let’s say, in the next decade? And show of hands, how many people think that will happen. And basically every hand goes up. What are the odds, you know, how many people think a hundred million social security numbers might get leaked, and most of the hands are still up. So, and then of course, credit cards. There is... I don't think there is anybody, certainly in the United States, there's nobody that hasn't gotten that letter saying your credit card number was probably leaked and you can free enroll in credit protection from us, and we'll pay for it. Whether it was Target or you know, all those other hacks. So the universe of like, "What if..." like, can I be secure? It doesn't exist. We're all hacked.

Jeff: So engineers, right Anil, engineers presume a system is going to be gamed. This is the way now that data is going to be gamed. Full stop. So we have to change, and again this doesn't address nude photos and theft, in that sense. Not that kind of violation, but in terms of the data breaches you mentioned Gina. I think we're looking at it the wrong way. It’s how do we stop the data from being breached. That horse is running over the horizon, and it’s halfway to Australia by now. Instead we've got to presume the data will be breached, so then where are we vulnerable then, and stop that. And that's where it goes back to things like how to do transactions. Does the fingerprint thing do it or other things? I don't know. I wish I could write about this with any authority. It’s the Skeet Gibsons of the world that are going to tell us better.

Leo: Well I now remember why we had Anil on because of his great post on Medium about public. And when you mention Dana Boyd, that reminded me that you'd had a back and forth with Dana over...

Anil: Sure. I love the conversation, by the way, that you all had about that. I appreciated that.

Leo: Good. I thought that really interesting. We'll talk a little about that, we also have the Google Change Log coming up. I'm sorry to hear you're not feeling well, Gina. Do you feel up to the Google Change Log?

Gina: I always...

Leo: We've worked you too hard, this is the third show in twenty four hours. it’s not fair.

Gina: I know, it’s been a marathon. I don't know how you do it, Leo.

Leo: it’s terrible, it’s really terrible. No one should have to do three shows... Nevermind. Um.

Gina: Don't say it, boss...

Leo: No one should ever... Nevermind. But anyway, hang on and hang in there. We're going to wrap this thing up as quickly as we can, so that you get to go home and I get to go home. Our show today brought to you by Squarespace, love the Squarespace. You know, it’s funny because, Anil, you know... I got to know Anil through the blogging platform Typepad, and then Vox, which was a very cool idea... And I really missed Vox when it went away. Squarespace, in many ways reminds me of that. it’s the hosting plus the software, to make it so easy to create a great website. Whether it’s your blog, whether it’s something, an ecommerce site... Because they've gotten incredibly commerce. If you're an artist or a photographer, your online portfolio... Squarespace makes it simple and makes it modern, and this is what I really like and I have learned now, after doing this for a few years, that keeping up with the web is a nontrivial thing. The styles change, the technologies change, the good news is with Squarespace you don't have to. They've got the best engineers working day and night, to create modern sites. Their current templates are mobile responsive, that means they look good on any size screen. They are e-commerce enabled, so it’s a simple thing to flip the switch. In fact, even the eight dollar a month site you can sell something or take donations. I just... I'm a big fan. And of course, they realize that the mobile experience is so important, not only for your viewers but for you. That's why they have some incredible mobile apps. Like the new metric app, for iPhone and iPad, which allows you to check site stats like page views, unique visitors, social media follows, their blogging app makes it easy to post and even monitor comments. They have a logo creator on their website. I love this new one, this is the portfolio app. If you're a photographer, this app pulls your images from your website, to create a beautiful online portfolio. The kind of thing you would show your clients, for instance, on your iPad or your iPhone, so you can go up to a bride, with the iPad and have a beautiful presentation and not have done anything. It just comes from your website. All of this starts at $8 a month and that includes the domain name free, when you sign up for a year. But you can try it, it’s even better. You can try it for two weeks absolutely free, no credit card required. Import all your content from Typepad or Blogger and any of the other APIs. Squarespace makes it easy. And their 24/7 support right from the Squarespace offices, in New York City make sure that you'll never have a problem that you can’t solve. Start your free two week trial, no credit card required. When you decide to sign up for Squarespace, make sure to use the offer code TWiG, you get ten percent off, and we'll get a little nod from Squarespace, which I like. That's Squarespace.com. Click the get started button, and then that. If you decide to buy, offer code T-W-I-G. Anil Dash joins us from ThinkUp, Gina's partner in ThinkUp.com. Jeff Jarvis is also here, and we do a thing every week Anil. I think you might know. it’s called the Google Change Log. Chad just got back from vacation and he's still a little... Now Gina Trapani with the latest from Google... That's Jeff. I'm sorry Chad.

Gina: Chrome's 64 Bit build for windows just got promoted from the Canary and dev channels up to the stable channel, which means that if you're running 64 Bit windows, you can get 64 Bit Chrome, and that means that it’s just faster and more secure and more stable, and can take advantage of all that extra memory space to address.

Leo: Is Chrome 64Bit on all of the other platforms? I know that I'm in the beta channel on the Mac on the 64 Bit. I think this was the last platform maybe to go 64Bit.

Gina: I believe that it is. Yes, indeed.

Leo: Cool.

Gina: Google renames Google Enterprise with a friendlier name, Google For Work, that's just this week. The new name is supposed to be friendlier and more inclusive to small businesses and organizations and even lone entrepreneurs and hackers using Google services, like search and Android and Cloud Platform. Nothing about Google Enterprise products actually changes, just the name, so it’s now Google For Work. Which, you know... Whatever.

Jeff: How friendly that is. Google, it means nothing to you guys but it means something to Leo. I'm reminded of Maitre G Krebs.

Leo: Why do you always do the old Kreb with me?

Anil: Tell us, lets gather around the campfire, about Krebs.

Jeff: Do a search, chad please. Do a search for Matre G Krebs.

Leo: it’s a Dobie Gillis reference, right?

Chad: Right, if you want to search for Krebs, you have to look on AltaVista.

Leo: Matre G Krebs was the character played by... Beatnick character on Dobie Gillis, played by, of course, Gilligan.

Playing a video of Dobie Gillis.

Leo: That's a long way to go...

Gina: I was waiting for that punchline there.

Leo: I think the problem is, Jeff, people don't know what Enterprise means. For the longest time, I didn't know what it meant.

Jeff: Thats true. You know what, Leo, words and that - I sat in business meetings where people talk about enterprise, it’s one of those words like fungible, I was embarrassed to ask. And I just waited until a definition would waft my way.

Leo: See we've got a solution here. We found that the beta c solution has been migrated upward to the BD solution and we now feel the enterprise is the future for this company. And I go, ahhhhh....

Anil: Enterprise is easy, you just add three zeros to the price.

Jeff: Enterprise means that you gave up your dreams of serving consumers.

Anil: Oh, that's a little too close to home. I have... When I met Leo, I was selling a product that had just become an enterprise product.

Jeff: I've been there too friend.

Anil: Aside from Bob Denver's least interesting roll, there's an interesting thing here with Google.

Leo: Wait a minute. He had more than two?

Anil: I can't imagine that... I think Gilligan is clearly the superior.

Leo: I don't know. I think Maynard G Krebs is a seminal role...

Anil: I wasn't alive then, so I'm guessing.

Leo: By the way, Bob Denver looks more and more like Bill Gates as he ages. I don't know what exactly is going on here. But doesn't that look like Bill Gates now?

Anil: There's a tech hook for everything.

Leo: For everything, yes.

Anil: But I think going from Enterprise to At Work is really a reflection of Google Apps exceeding in government, succeeding in education. All these things are, we're not business. Why else would you have a meeting and say, look, we're going to rebrand the most important thing we do from Enterprise to At Work? And it’s well worth the dollars. And they want to put Chromebooks into schools and they want to put google apps and google docs into government, so those are the only places that are going to object to calling Work, Enterprise.

Jeff: I was trying to get to a long winded joke there, but I agree. I think it makes sense, it says that this is ready for prime time. it’s ready for your office. I have this... it’s my institution to switch over to Google docs. And I'd be a lot happier if they did. I'm not sure that word change is going to do it, but maybe if they believe there's a sweeter seed there... Services there that makes it make sense, alright.

Leo: By the way, the little known fact...

Gina: There is Google Apps for Education, is there not?

Leo: I think that's why they went work and education. I think they wanted parallelism, is what I think.

Anil: Well, in the URL is still Google.com/enterprise, so I think that kind of tells you most of what you neeed to know.

Leo: Move on, on the Change Log. Well one last Dobie Gillis fact, Bob Denver received, according to IMDB $250 an episode for his work as Maynard G Krebs.

Gina: Alright, moving on. Google Play's beautiful design collection of apps for Android just got updated. The beautiful design collection features apps hand-picked by Google to show off great Android UI design. Today's update includes apps that will implement UI elements from Google's new materials design, that's coming in android L this fall, of course. New apps in the collection include, Duolingo, Lumosity, Spotify, Runtastic, and Yahoo News digest. So starting to get a peek of material design ahead of time from these apps. And finally, this is a new one on me, apparently it’s been a while but they're testing some tweaks to it... Google is testing a new search box inside their search results for certain sites. Like, Amazon, the White House, or Stanford. So to see it in action, and I got this in some of my tries and not all so this might be an experiment that we know won't work for everyone, but if you search for Microsoft, say, you'll see the top result for Microsoft, with Microsoft.com. And below that there'll be a search box to search inside Microsoft. So a site search box in their search results. Works for Stanford, works for Whitehouse. They all do Google site search, but if you search for Amazon and you see the search box, it'll actually take you to Amazon search results. So, clearly kind of one of these... One of Google's experiments with making the search results more useful. And interesting to see them pointing to someone elses, particularly Amazon's, search results as well. So not everybody has it, but kind of interesting.

Jeff: Against antitrust complaints, if they do that.

Leo: Ahhhh, very clever.

Gina: Yeah, yup. And actually, we should, outside of the changelog, we should discuss the how to eat sushi google search results. But we'll do that later, but for now that's all I've got.

Jeff: You don't want to get that on you, huh, Gina?

Leo: Am I going to get nude pictures or something? And that's the Google Change Log. Apparently this advice from Google, no longer there by the way, on how to eat sushi. This is from, um. Should I even mention this? Yeah, I think I can. This is from Google Answers. And so, it showed up in a knowledge box, right?

Gina: Yeah, it’s the knowledge graph, right, which basically just parses data from other websites and presents it inside the search results. So you would Google how to eat sushi, and you get a few whatever... Instructions back, from...

Leo: It's okay to use your fingers to eat cut sushi rolls. Don't combine ginger and sushi, or ginger and soy sauce. Ginger, the pickled ginger is a palate cleanser. When dipping sushi in soy sauce, dip fish side down. Didn't know that, very useful. And never shake the soy sauce off sushi, that's like shaking your wanker in public. What? Whaaaaat?

Gina: Its... You know... I mean, whatever... it’s not a big deal, obviously... it’s text scraped from another site, but people made a big deal about it because it's kind of like what we were talking about with native advertising, it maybe is not clear that this is text from another site. People are saying, "Google is saying this thing about how to eat sushi." But google is not saying it at all, but it’s the presentation that creates some confusion.

Leo: And to their credit, it was a Googler who outed Google... Steven Lau, a software engineer with Google Glass tweeted, "PSA Google how to eat sushi, do it now before it gets fixed."

Anil: This is sort of live by the sword, die by the sword in terms of the knowledge box, or One box, right? This was from a vice article, advice of all publications should be pretty obvious it’s going to have some stuff that maybe you don't want to show...

Leo: Despite its name, I thought Vice was actually pretty...

Anil: it’s very credible, they do create-your-own, and they also do a bunch of this. Right? So tis... A little like everything. There's no... Every media outlet is very highbrow and very lowbrow. Right? And...

Leo: It's true, isn't it?

Anil: And I don't think it even happens anymore. But there used to be these objections about bringing content in on One Box, in the knowledge boxes because you're competing with publishers in some way and they don't have any... Real choice but to combinate that. Because it’s also the thing that's going to drive more traffic. Um. And so when you bring in, with Wikipedia, I'm sure there are tons of Wikipedia articles that have been defaced at the top automatically scraped into a knowledge box, in Google and you can get some ridiculous results if you take a look. That should be one of the reasons that Google should even be more cautious about bringing this content in. I mean, I think I'm old fashioned but I remember a time when Google would give you results that took you to another site. And as much as it sort of has been conventional wisdom that oh, it’s convenient it's easy and faster, to get it here. I still like that idea that they used to be about taking you to the content as opposed to bringing the content into their site.

Leo: Boy you do sound like an old timer, when you say Google gave you results that brought you to other sites. Those days... Wasn't that the purpose of Google?

Jeff: I think it took you to AltaVista.

Jeff: Gina and I got up a little bit early this morning, a little earlier for me than you, six am for you, nine AM for you. To go to Berlin virtually, for this Samsung Unpacked event. And they called it, what... Chapter 2, because it was the second. Part 2? The second unpacking event.

Gina: Unpacking of the year.

Leo: Of the year! They did the galaxy S5, earlier this year. The announcement was the Note, Galaxy note 4, 5.7inch tablet that features an improved camera... Both front and back. They made a big deal about selfies. I think selfies are increasingly going to be something important. The front facing camera... And not for skype or facetime, but for pictures. They even showed, what do they call it? A Usie? A wife? The wife, which is ...

Gina: You could pano. It was basically a selfie pano. I like the shutter, there actually was a hardware shutter on the back of the phone and I was like, yes, I want that. We've seen that on other phones.

Leo: No, that's a good idea. I mean this is Samsung. They just throw everything against the wall and see what sticks.

Anil: How wide does your head have to be for a panoramic selfie? I don't...

Leo: It was to get the people...

Anil: I have a big head. I have a big fat head...

Leo: it’s more to get the background more, and that's what you're seeing in these selfies, now. And that's why the selfie stick. Because you don't want just you, you want...

Gina: Right, you want... Yeah, that actually... That live demo was great. They got the three announcers, plus the entire audience behind them ,and of course they did the call back to Ellen's selfie at the Oscars, the wife with all the celebrities in it or whatever which made a lot of sense.

Leo: Which they paid for, we should...

Gina: Which they paid for, I'm sure handsomely, no doubt. And then of course they had the iPhone using... Go ahead Jeff, sorry.

Jeff: I was going to make a joke... About my needs to get the ears in the selfie.

Anil: No, I do mean I have a giant pumpkin head, and I actually... I'm fine with people having this selfie stick. I was down by the World Trade Center and these tourists had a selfie stick out, and it’s sort of... At first you're like, that's strange. Then after a while, it’s like it’s not actually that different than having a tripod or something. People have been doing, so I'm fine with that... But I'm a little, like some of the things... This is very Samsung. it’s a... They just start trying whatever and seeing what sticks and I'm like, be about something. Have a point of view, say this is what we're trying to do. I wish they w3ere more directed instead of okay... This is the selfie feature we want to enable and this is the reason why.

Leo: I'm trying to see if they posted on their Samsung account the picture. They have the... This is the image from the event, of the wide selfie. Um, but I was going to try to find the picture they took. They should have tweeted it. Because it really... It looked good. It was really pretty impressive.

Gina; It was a portrait pano, I was deeply troubled that these photos were taken in portrait.

Leo: Well if you're going to do a pano and you do it in portrait you get more pixels.

Gina: You get more height, I get that. Still it troubled me.

Leo: Here's the shot from the video of it. And it looks like, though it’s hard to tell, that it came out pretty well.

Gina: It did, it did. I mean, forever I will credit Bradley Cooper for landscaping that business. Ellen was going to portrait it, but Bradley...

Leo: He knew what he was doing. That means he's... Nowadays that counts, that means you're a geek. Oh, that's probably why, sure.

Anil: Yeah these people stand in front of cameras for a living, right?

Leo: They kind of know a little about this stuff. They also showed the note 4 edge. Which is... A little tiny but smaller than an 04 because it then has a kind of like, a hundred fifty a hundred sixty pixel curved screen on the side. They say that's a separate screen, by the way. Now I'm reading... That shows you... I don't know...

Gina: Shows you what? Why? it’s like a ticker. But it goes up the side of your phone! Diagonally. And it’s got its own SDK.

Anil: It shows you that one engineer was able to get a little sliver of curved screen working and they wanted to ship it no matter what, even if it had no point.

Leo: Well, in fact when they showed it, I don't know if I can... Yeah, here's the publicity shot, when they... in the publicity shot, if you look closely, you'll notice that the... Look at the temperature on the right, there. it’s upside down. So... And this is in their shots, so...

Anil: At least maybe the photo is not faked.

Leo: Have a little bit of something to work on there... Um. It also means it would be very hard to hold that phone. Because the mashable...

Jeff: Hit buttons when you don't mean to.

Leo: Mashable has video with a hands on, once I get past the...

Anil: I'll make another old person reference, which is do you remember side talking? Have we... So side talk is probably two thousand and three, Nokia released the first Engage, and they had some other business phones like this where instead of you talking into your phone, like a normal person would, you talked into the side of it.

Leo: See, it’s upside down... Maybe it reorients itself...

Anil: And everybody made fun of it on the internet for like a good couple weeks, about why were you talking into the side of your phone. Side touching. it’s like side...

Gina: Side touching.

Anil: And I don't... Sides are for buttons. Sides aren't for...

Leo: But they are buttons. They're just virtual buttons.

Jeff: With this phone, I'd pull it out of my pocket and it’s like it’s a gigantic USB because I'm constantly turning it around, saying is it upside down or right side up?

Leo: This way you'll know. I'm going to reserve judgment on the face of it, looks like it’s not going to be great, but... And then they announced also a watch that is clearly way too big. This is... We were just counting off the air, I think there are six or seven watches from Samsung. They actually showed three. Including a watch that looks like it’s an iPhone strapped to your wrist. Um... It... They didn't, by the way... None of the prices or availability was revealed for any of this. And it...

Gina: they showed three watches today? I thought it was just the curved, six hundred watch today? And the VR? And the Edge...

Leo: They had the band, remember, that had the e-paper. They didn't call it a watch?

Jeff: That was Sony, wasn't it?

Leo: Was that Sony? You're right. Sony had it. I think I'm confusing the two. Sony had their first Android wear watch. There it is. And the band... And it was this big galaxy watch, that they showed. You're absolutely right.

Anil: So Samsung might only be offering five watches, not six.

Leo: I might have miscounted. The GearS smartwatch is the size of an iPhone on your wrist... Um... And has a band to match, which is interesting.

Jeff: I'm with Leo, yes. You're unfashionable now, officially.

Leo: I'm so out of it with my old Android wear watch.

Jeff: And your white band.

Leo: And my white band, oh no. I tried to change the band and it didn't work. So I'm just going to stick with the white band. And I realized I'm going to have a new watch any minute now, why bother?

Gina: Either the watcher or the 360 going to show up, or the S... Yeah.

Leo: They also announced a virtual reality helmet that they've worked on in conjunction with Oculus Rift, that John Carmack joined the stage... To talk a little bit about the technology and they modified the android kernel to make this thing fast. You slide a note four, and it will only work with a Note Four, and this headset, and you've got Oculus Rift style virtual reality. This is just, of course, like the Google CardBoard version, that was given away at Google IO. A little spiffier and I'm sure a lot more expensive. And equally nauseating, probably.

Anil: Who is the phablet headset user? Who's that person? Who is that?

Leo: Who is that?

Anil: I've never met the phablet headset target audience.

Jeff: Scoville.

Leo: They made one use case which actually I thought wasn't bad, which was in an airplane. They said it’s like having a hundred twenty seven being two feet away from a hundred twenty seven inch screen.

Gina: So watching a movie on the airplane...

Leo: But if you want it...

Anil: that's how you program people's brains, that's not...

Leo: Keep your eyes open, and the stewardess could drop a little visine in them once in a while.

Jeff: The chair in front of you will slam back and hit your head... Because it’s so far extended.

Leo: And that looks like it was a prototype.

Anil: That Scoville would put it on his head is not a statement... He'll put anything on his head.

Leo: And has.

Anil: Right.

Leo: And this does require the Note4, this won't work with just any phone. You can see it’s carefully made to fit the Note4, exactly.

Gina: Really it’s crazy, how well Google preempted this whole thing with Cardboard.

Leo: Yeah, they knew it was coming.

Anil: Well it’s also a brilliant thing Google did where they literally took the second most costly acquisition focus ever made, and said, "We can do this for one dollar's worth of cardboard." Like, in terms of just, you know...

Gina: Yeah, it was the ultimate troll.

Leo: It was nicely done.

Anil: Beautifully, tastefully done, completely mean spirited thing. I love that. It was great.

Leo: It was really good. We could do that. Oh yeah, we could do that.

Anil: Just ruined their birthday party, it was so good.

Leo: Right after the Samsung event... By the way all of those devices will be available someday. They announced that. And...

Gina: One is going to be in October.

Leo: Yeah, the phone, the Note4 will be out in October, available in all four, actually five US carriers including US Cellular.

Anil: I don't think that strap a note to your head thing is ever going to be available. They'll say it got released but there will be no actual humans...

Leo: Maybe Google Glass... How many people bought Google Glass?

Jeff: A few schmucks like me. Ask me when I last turned it on.

Leo: I spent a considerable amount of money on the Kickstarter project for the Oculus Rift, and I just yesterday gave away my Rift to a deaf kid. To a young lad... On the street.

Anil: Protective safety goggles would look nicer.

Leo: Exactly, they made a point of how good it looked, actually. Right after, it was the Sony event and the Sony folks announced a new Zed 3, phones with very high resolution screens, very high quality. 20 megapixel cameras... And then of course, this is just the beginning, tomorrow is the Motorola event. Not in Berlin, but unaccountably in Chicago, where no one is right now. And they actually... The entire city is empty. Um. And they're going to announce the moto 360 flat tire watch.

Gina: Flat tire watch...

Anil: The 270, yeah.

Leo: And then, the Moto X and the G2. Both of which I think, the G has turned out to be kind of a successful surprise, excess. I love the Moto X and I'm looking forward to the next generation. I think it was Androidcentral who said it will be called the Moto X, just the new Moto X, and the G will be called the G2.

Jeff: When will it be available?

Leo: Yeah, well, your guess is as good as mine. This fall, I guess. These companies have been a little bit cagey about release dates, which inclines me to think they're rushing to get these announcements out before Apple makes its announcement next week.

Anil: For sure. What model was that Motorola that I loaned you?

Gina: It was the MotoX.

Anil: Yeah, that was a great phone.

Leo: MotoX is...

Anil: I disliked it, but I don't remember what model.

Leo; One of the best phones of the year, even though it was a little below par on specs, I just loved it’s functionality. If this MotoX brings it up to flagship standards, and retains some of that, always on functionality, I think it’s just going to be a great phone.

Gina: Despite the red hat, it wasn't a terrible phone. It was a pretty good phone.

Leo: I liked the red hat!

Gina: Oh, man.

Leo: You can do that on your cardboard, did you know that?

Gina: The red hat thing? The flying hat? Well it makes sense, right? Sense for what it was.

Leo: Yeah!

Gina: You know, Anil got like the special edition that came with a special box, with like a forest that you'd unfold it or whatever and it came with a little plastic red hat that had a magnet on it, you could touch to the screen to invoke the software. It was... Just like absurd beyond... I couldn't believe it...

Anil: It was literally the prettiest packaging I've ever seen, certainly of any electronics.

Leo: How do I get on that list?

Anil: I don't know! I think it was... It must have been an error. They must have mistaken me...

Jeff: If anyone on earth should have that, it’s Chad.

Leo: Because he's got red hair. He should have a red hat to go along with it...

Anil: I got on the wrong list somehow when they were... They mistook me for somebody that was literate in these things.

Leo: Perhaps you mistook me for someone who cares!

Anil: No, I was... I mean it’s a great phone. it’s an amazing phone... And I actually liked the red hat experience, I thought it was very cinematic and engaging.

Leo: There's two of them. So there's the red hat, and then there’s a squirrel and his nuts.

Anil: Yeah.

Gina: The mouse and the squirrel, yeah...

Anil: I think I had an email about you can go check that out, and I didn't do that... But, the phone itself was great. it’s a great piece of hardware so I think any improvement to that will be awesome.

Leo: Tomorrow, there will be, I am told, a Dyson vacuum cleaner announcement as well...

Gina: There you go.

Leo: Secret product...

Jeff: I'm headed EFA on Sunday.

Leo: Are you?

Gina: Oh, good for you!

Leo: It's over, isn't it?

Jeff: No, there's an EFA+ thing I'm speaking at, so hello Berlin.

Leo: And somebody in the chat room, apparently talking about our mocking of the virtual reality helmet, says, "You guys don't even know what it's for. You are not funny”, so apparently one guy wants it.

Jeff: What's the problem? This was the problem last week with trying to explain Twitch to me and all of the abuse we got.

Anil: I will gladly fall on the sword of unfunny about wearing a fablet on your head.

Leo: Where do you stand on twitch.tv, the gaming network?

Anil: I think it is every bit as interesting as watching sports.

Leo: Okay, there you go.

Jeff: So you too, like me, are not a real man. Is that right Anil?

Anil: I meant exactly what I said. You can tell from my tweets that I tweet a lot during award shows.

Leo: Yeah baby; yeah, the Golden Globes baby. Nobody watched the Emmy's though, apparently.

Anil: No, real award shows.

Leo: Real award shows. Shows that count.

Anil: You know, Grammys, Oscars, that kind of stuff.

Leo: So it's the crazy season; lots of products coming out. Next week is Apples' announcement. Will we then be done? I don't know. It's kind of hard to imagine.

Jeff: When are we getting the watches do you think?

Leo: No idea. I think none of this is... Apparently they don't even have FCC approval for the Note 4 so we are a few months off maybe even.

Jeff: No, I mean the...

Gina: The iWatch. Are you asking about the iWatch? Is the iWatch going to happen? I don't know.

Jeff: The rumor is...

Anil: I think Apple wants to freeze the market. They want to say don't buy it before Christmas; we aren't going to be ready until next year. We are going to show you something really cool, but you have got to wait. It's the perfect way to do it because it gives developers time to get ready, it ruins Christmas for everybody else, and they still will sell a bunch of iPhones while people save up to buy a watch in the new year.

Jeff: Well here is a question Anil. If you are an Apple person you are an Apple person. If you are an Android person you are an Android person. Can Apple announce things that will convert people back from Android?

Anil: Yeah, I think that there are a lot more flocks and movement between the platforms that people realize. People are up for renewal and they look at all of the phones that are out. Outside of techies there isn't a huge amount of allegiance. Like oh, this screen is bigger, or my friend has that so I should get that. I don't think it's much more thought than that. I think the conversation is Android or Apple.

Leo: I tried to woo my kids with Motorola X's after they broke their iPhone. I said, well, I'm not buying you another iPhone because the new one is coming out, but try this Moto X. Henry said, oh, I can't figure out how to charge it. That's such a lie.

Anil: Well kids are a different thing, right?

Leo: But that's the market. They are 20 and 22. These are the guys you want to get if you are Apple or Android.

Anil: High school and college, there is no question that Apple is the gold brand. This is why I don't buy into a lot of the fragmentation story around Android. But, in terms of brand fragmentation, Samsung is not cool in this way. They are respected, they are fine, but they are not cool. Google's own phones are not a factor. You don't have a brand that has that cache that they do when you have an Apple logo on something. In that regard for young people it's just not the same thing. It's a different kind of product.

Leo: I'm probably going to go back to the iPhone with a bigger screen and customizable keyboards. But I am also bracing myself for disappointment so we will see what happens. I am one of those people who are looking forward to actually going back to the iPhone. Mostly because of the variety of apps that get released on iPhone only. It's very frustrating.

Anil: The apps are still better. They still are.

Jeff: But that's an absurdity right there. That's geeks not looking at enough market research.

Anil: That's assuming that any of these decisions are based on some rational process. That's not how we buy a thing that we hold in our hand all day.

Leo: It's totally emotional because from a technical point of view there is not much difference between any of the platforms.

Jeff: What I'm talking about is the number, and I hear this basis all the time in the news business, where they will write an app; NYT Now, they still haven't written an Android version. That's absurd, absurd. There is a huge audience out there.

Anil: What do you think their goals are?

Leo: Instagram says that we will write Hyperlapse for Android as soon as the hardware capabilities are there, or the API is there. So that's a technical reason. But every day I see apps that are iPhone only.

Gina: I feel like that is getting smaller. It's still there, but it's getting smaller. If you look at small startups putting out, yeah there is going to be a couple of apps that come out on IOS first. It happens less than it used to. I don't know, there is certainly still this notion that you have got to prove yourself in IOS first, and that's where the money is, and Android users don't spend as much money on apps or internet purchase. I also think that gap is narrowing if that still remains true now. I agree, I think that it's really stupid for companies to release IOS first and say, oh yeah; sometime down the road we are releasing Android. It just doesn't make sense marketsharewise.

Leo: We are going to take a break and come back with more. Our show today is brought to you by Personal Capital. Personal Capital is an app on almost every platform including Android Wear. They are one of the first companies to make an Android Wear app. I will tell you why that is very useful. Personal Capital allows you to put all of your financial accounts into one easy to use dashboard. Your checking, your savings, your car, your boat, your loans, most importantly your investments, your planning for your future, and your retirement. It gives you a sense of how you stand, where you are overpaying in fees, when you are underperforming and you are not getting what you should be getting from your investments, and where you need to rebalance things like that. It couldn't be easier. You enter it all in, and you see it all on one nice screen. The app is awesome on the Android Wear because it means you get relevant and timely updates on your finances. You know, a stock to worry about. Things like that. Personal Capital is great and it gives you tailored advice on optimizing your investments so it is the best way to plan for the future. Half a million people now are using Personal Capital. What was that number above? It was like 100 billion dollars in finances entered into the Personal Capital interface. It really is amazing. We first met them when Bill Harris, the founder, started the company a couple of years ago. We've been very proud to be associated with them. Here is the best part, I didn't even tell you the best part; it's free; personalcapital.com/twig to get started. It will just take you a couple of minutes. Immediately you will reap the benefits, personalcapital.com/twig. People say, well how do you monetize? A couple of ways; of course they monetize just how you would imagine by offering you better deals, but also some of you, not all of you, but some of you will get calls if you are managing a lot of money from a Personal Capital Certified Financial Planners who are not on commission but will help you with your finances and your investments. It's really great advice, too. I use them, personalcapital.com/twig.

So if you have seen random favorites inserted into your Twitter Timeline it's because you don't either follow enough people or the people you are following don't do enough. So Twitter has decided to spiff things up by sticking favorites in there. Dick Costolo explains in a tweet, "You get favorites when you pull to refresh twice and you have no new tweets both times."

Jeff: The tweet response to that in that article is precious.

Leo: And then Ed Young responds, "Hilarious if true. Everyone: Twitter, why? Twitter: Because monkey press lever, monkey get no snack, monkey sad." You know, this is called reruns friends. Nothing good on TV, here are some of your favorite tweets.

Anil: What a missed opportunity from Twitter, right? All the sort of Twitter junkies are really mad. Why are these tweets showing up? I didn't follow this person. If I wanted to retweet it I would retweet it and you are just showing me favorites from my friends. All of this confusion and dismay, right? What they could have easily done is announced it and said, you know what we've done? We've experimented with when people want more of Twitter and they tell us by refreshing twice we are going to give you a little magic prize of something that your friend likes. People would be like, that's delightful, it's thoughtful that you anticipated what I want. Because they didn't communicate about it, it went the exact opposite way.

Jeff: You loser. You know nobody interesting.

Anil: And they have to ruin the experience because now I can't predict what is going to be in my stream. So now Twitter broke its promise to me about how they are only going to show me stuff that I follow. So they go the worst of both situations, and it's one of those things where like a one paragraph blog post would have turned this around for them if they had got out ahead of it. It's a weird thing that the companies that make social platforms are usually the worst at talking about them.

Leo: It's really an object lesson in communications and marketing. Google has the same problem. If you just announce it in a clever, creative way you can make people very happy. You know who is good at this? Apple; Apple is so good at it, and by the way, a great article by Mark Gurman in 9to5Mac on Apples' marketing machine and how it manipulates the media. Really a long article, brilliant; this guy is 20 years old.

Jeff: Smart kid.

Leo: When I was 20 years old I was still wondering why I didn't get any prizes in my cereal, and he is analyzing marketing strategy at Apple like a pro.

Anil: I loved that article. There is an interesting thing in it where he says well, Apple manipulated coverage in an outlet by doing this. He just talks about what happens and who did it. He sort of belies which outlet was manipulated or what story it was about, so he is sort letting the other outlets save face. It's a very thoughtful thing to do, but the whole way through I kept asking, well who was being manipulated? Who got snookered by Apple on this? That's the only place where he pulls the punches is about talking about how sort of other reporters were. I get why.

Leo: He also makes a spreadsheet of which journalists receive early copies of which Mac products. You can very clearly on your own correlate it to who gets the best Apple coverage. That's a brave thing to do. That's pretty much guaranteeing that you will be on Apple's list for some time to come.

Anil: I love that grid because that was one of the things that I mentally had as a geek, you kind of know, oh, that was interesting when Schenning got the iPad or Boing Boing and I hadn't noticed that before. I definitely remember The Root getting the iPad because I was like, oh, Apple is pretty consciously courting the African American audience here, and they haven't done that before. That was really cool, but seeing it all laid out was this sort of like...

Leo: They are so good.

Anil: They are thoughtful. They have a plan. I think that is the contrast to why I get frustrated with Samsung saying that they will just splatter stuff up against the wall with 10 different watches. It's like; there is a lot to be said for being disciplined.

Leo: Yeah. Let me show you this spreadsheet. When you look at it, this is deep within this article. It's kind of telling because you can immediately see by the checkboxes. So the green checkmarks are people who got IOS device review access prior to the release. The reds are when nobody got it. AnandTech didn't get it until very, very recently. Of course, interestingly, both Brian Klug and Anand Lal Shimpi from AnandTech have just defected to Apple. 

Anil: Their coverage must have been too good.

Leo: Yeah, a lot of red x's for our friend Andy. Boing Boing got 2 specific devices, the iPad and the iPhone 4; never again. But then you see people like oh, David Pogue, Ed Baig, who get green checks everywhere, even more than CNet.

Anil: Ed Baig is always interesting because he's a super talented guy, a great writer. He's not a sort of tech household name like a Walt Mossberg is, but he's always been this very reliable sort of Apple voice.

Leo: Well, he also has a bully pulpit. And you can merely say, well Pogue wrote for the New York Times, Baig wrote for USA Today. Those people probably should. Although here is Jason Snell, Editor in Chief at MacWorld Magazine, who only 3 times out of the total 12 got the device ahead of time.

Anil: Well MacWorld is on the outs with Apple. The interesting thing about it is, Ed is still at USA today, but both Walt and Pogue have left their sort of big newspapers. You see this sort of legacy. In the article it said that Jobs was one of those people that judged media outlets by what he got in print as a kid. They are still sort of saying that this is how you do reputable and respectable; what was on dead trees years ago.

Leo: Yeah, because you look at Mashable, which is clearly influential; bunch of red x's.

Anil: Yeah.

Leo: Kudos to Mark Gurman to really speaking truth to power. That's brave thing to do when you have a media machine that is so effective.

Anil: It's also a confident thing. He knows he's got enough meat to cover that he doesn't have to rely on the sort of the kindness of the company.

Leo: "Seeing Through Illusion: Understanding Apple's Mastery of the Media." We will see a lot of that soon.

Anil: This should be a business school case study. This is how you do media.

Leo: It really stands out because so many companies do it so poorly, just as in this case with Twitter where they just turn a win into a loss. That's ridiculous.

Anil: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Leo: Twitter is now kind of improving the intake process. One of the issues that Twitter has always had is that when you sign up to a new user to Twitter it is a little baffling. It's like now what? So they've done the first redesign in 3 years of the sign up process. You identify your interests; fashion, photography, entertainment, news, and then they suggest users. They've always had a suggested users list. It's the design to get you interested in it right from the very beginning. I haven’t played with it.

Anil: How is it possible that they went 3 years without changing the way that you sign up?

Leo: Isn't that odd?

Anil: It doesn't even seem plausible, does it?

Leo: I don't know. Maybe it's wrong, but that's what it says.

Anil: They've got hundreds and hundreds of engineers.

Leo: They had other things.

Gina: It feels like they are differentiating small tweaks from major overhauls.

Leo: And they were working on getting the Justin Bieber servers running.

Gina: Right, right. You know, speaking of favorites, the activity column on TweetDeck is amazing. It's like every single thing that your friend's favorite. Like as it happens. It's just like a ticker tape. It just flies down, but that column is unbelievable. Seeing your friend's favorites is actually really, really cool. The problem is that they legislate, just as you said, that they just didn't pre-announce it. They just didn't handle it right.

Leo: The results are in. Of course the FCC asking for comments pro and con on net neutrality. Over a million comments came in. Fewer than 1% were against net neutrality. That's a shocker. I'm again it. I don't know if that was one of your numbers. I think we've pretty much covered everything. I'm just looking. Any stories you guys wanted to bring up?

Jeff: I think this is amusing. Stewart Baker said that you can tell whether Google thinks you are famous. Did you see that one?

Leo: How do you know?

Gina: Oh yeah, the right to be forgotten stuff. Google has some sort of measure; they indicated in their statements about it, there is some sort of measure about whether or not you are a public figure. In this article, I read this article really quickly, so if you search for yourself or for someone you want to know whether or not Google thinks they are a public figure, at the bottom if Google thinks you are a public figure it will say, "Results may have been removed from this person's"...

Jeff: It's the opposite, though. That's the weird thing, isn't it?

Gina: Okay, it's the other way.

Leo: If you are famous they are not going to remove stuff.

Gina: If you are a public figure they are not going to move stuff, right, because it's public interest. That's right.

Leo: So now everyone is Googling themselves. Let me just see.

Gina: I didn't have that at the bottom.

Leo: I don't have it at the bottom of mine, either.

Jeff: I don't have it at the bottom of mine. So put in somebody who is just not famous. Let's see if this works. You have to do it under the UK search. It has to be UK.

Gina: Right.

Leo: Oh, it's in UK.

Jeff: It has to be in UK because it has to be part of...

Leo: Of course, because it's not... Let me Google myself again and Google UK. Maybe I won't be famous enough there.

Anil: I can tell myself that I'm not famous in England, right? That's the issue.

Leo: Yeah, nothing, nothing for me. If you are famous it doesn't say anything. If you are Chad Johnson, let's see if it says anything.

Chad: Yeah, that's going to kind of an issue with Ochocinco.

Leo: There are quite a few Chad Johnsons. Well, let's pick somebody. Why did it offer me Chad Ochocinco?

Chad: You don't know who Chad Ochocinco is?

Leo: Ochocinco.

Anil: Chad Ochocinco. He's world famous.

Leo: Is he related to Chad Johnson?

Chad: Sports, sportsball.

Leo: Sportsball?

Chad: It's funny, that's why I don't like my real name.

Anil: It's not there.

Chad: Jeff, we can't hear you.

Anil: So that's not there for me on UK.

Leo: So you are famous. I don't know if I buy this.

Anil: That can't be right. That can't be right.

Leo: I don't buy it.

Gina: Well, I mean, if you have got a Wikipedia page.

Leo: You are famous. Maybe that's how they do it.

Gina: You are something great, right?

Leo: Yeah.

Gina: I think that that is a signal.

Leo: Anil, don't you have a Wikipedia page?

Anil: I do, but I'm saying that you all do, too.

Leo: Yeah, we all have Wikipedia.

Anil: So you are all famous.

Leo: Yeah, that's one of the criteria for getting on the show.

Anil: Oh.

Leo: No, I'm just kidding.

Chad: Jeff just left.

Leo: That and having a working internet connection. Google's Android Wear team says that they will update early and often. I'm still waiting for an update, and by the way Google you had better hurry because I don't know if this watch is going to stay on my wrist much longer. There seems to be some competition coming; the Moto 360, the Apple iWatch, and that ginormous watch from Samsung.

Gina: Well, the 360 is Android Wear. The ginormous watch is Tizen, yeah?

Leo: Tizen, yeah.

Gina: I don't think Google is really worried about Tizen, are they? I don't know.

Leo: No, after seeing that watch they would be crazy to be worried. Go ahead Chad, get Jeff back. While we are getting Jeff back I'm going to tell you a little bit about our friends at Smart...

Jeff: You can't hear me.

Leo: I can hear you.

Anil: Yeah we can.

Gina: Welcome back Jeff.

Leo: That's marvelous.

Jeff: Sorry to interrupt the commercial.

Leo: We have the technology. Ochocinco.

Chad: It's Ochocinco.

Leo: Ochocinco.

Jeff: Ochocinco.

Leo: That means 8 5.

Chad: Yes, yes.

Gina: You are such an Italian. You want to say the...

Leo: Ochocinco, Ottantacinque; how do you say SmartThings in Italian? SmartThings? SmartThings? This, my friends, this was the Kickstarter Project that I kicked into way. You did, actually Gina, didn't you? You were a Kickstarter supporter of SmartThings.

Gina: I did.

Leo: Why?

Gina: In 2012. It was a friend of a friend who was involved with it. Honestly, like any Kickstarter, I watched the video and they got me. I wanted it. I've got to tell you, I love it. The kit that I have I'm sure was an early prototype compared to what they are selling now. I've loved it. I've loved it.

Leo: They have really solved a problem. If you are trying to have a smartphone, the issue is of course that nothing talks to anything. You could get a system like the SmartThings system that will talk to everything in the system but never talks to anything else. So the SmartThings hub is the cornerstone to all of this. Yes, of course SmartThings has 3 home security kits, 4 brand new solution kits which are designed to solve specific problems, but they also integrate with your GE Locks, your Schlage, your Honeywell Neon Nest thermostats, your DropCam, your Phillips 2 lights, your Wheemo remote, and your Sonos Music System. You can create an amazing array of things. You said, what are you doing, you have it tie into your music? What did you say Gina?

Gina: One of the sensors that tells you whether or not something has been open or closed, I had it hooked up to my mailbox so that when my mail came, my physical postal mail, I would get a push notification.

Leo: That's awesome. Mail's in! I like that.

Gina: Yeah, and the presence sensor I had on my daughter's stroller, so that when she went for a walk and came back I would get a push notification that she was home or that she just left. I had the lights programmed to come on, the nightlight to come on at sunset, which is really nice. There are IFTT recipes. It's a really open platform. It's really very cool

Leo: And now they have a maker kit so that you can integrate your Arduino Projects. So really the sky is the limit. This is really wide open. So every kit includes the hub, which is the key of course, and then everything that you need to turn your home into a smarthome in as little as 15 minutes. They have new and improved ZigBee sensors. ZigBee is one of many languages that these devices talk to. You can get instant alerts to prevent a leak from causing a flood. You can be notified if there is unexpected entry or movement in your home. You can control and automate your lights and small appliances. You get the idea. Pretty much the sky is the limit. Here's the deal, you can get started creating your smarthome by visiting smartthings.com/twit, and if you see something that you want you are going to get 10% off of the purchase price of any home security or solution kit. Just use the offer code TWIT10 at checkout. Those new solution kits do some really interesting things. There are the home security kits, but you've got solution kits that are specific to things like energy saver, lighting automation, water detection, I mentioned the leak, and the SmartThings Maker, which is the Arduino Kit. So get 10% off of that. Solution kits start as low as $170, home security as low as $350 when you use the offer code T-W-I-T-1-0, TWIT10 on checkout. SmartThings, they really are smart, .com/twit. Gina, I know you want to get going, so let us get from you your tip of the week.

Gina: Yes, this is a new one to me. This is a tiny, subtle Google Docs thing that I was unaware of. I'm often dealing with multipage documents in Google Docs, and I didn't realize this, but as you are scrolling through a multipage document there is a little tool tip on the scrollbar that tells you what page you are on. I had just never noticed it before, but there it is, it works. So keep an eye on that if you are reviewing long, long, boring documents in Google Docs like I have been doing recently.

Leo: Almost done. It's almost done.

Gina: Page 37 of 50.

Leo: God, maybe I don't want to know.

Jeff: I will soon come out with a tome, "Okay Smartass, Now That the Internet has Ruined Everything, What Next?” it’s 180 pages in Google Doc. It's a killer.

Gina: There you go. There's that tool tip.

Jeff: It takes forever to load.

Leo: What's it about again?

Jeff: "Okay Smartass, Now That the Internet has Ruined News, What Next?”

Leo: Oh.

Jeff: Everybody says, okay Jarvis, what's your view? So I kind of had to write down everything that I think, and there it is, and believe me it's important.

Leo: "Okay Smartass, Now That the Internet has Ruined News, What Next?"

Jeff: It's aimed at my geeks.

Gina: I think that you need to re-brand it, though. I don't think that white paper sells it well. Can you make it a Medium essay? Would it fit into the text area?

Jeff: That's what I'm going to do; I'm going to put it all up on Medium for free because with matching pay walls I can't do that. The title is "Geeks Bearing Gifts".

Anil: Not "What Would Jarvis Do?"

Leo: That's good too.

Anil: That's where you got to go. 

Leo: What would Jeffy do?

Anil: I know exactly what that book is about, "What Would Jarvis Do?"

Leo: What would Jarvis do? Wait a minute, Jeff; you are going to give us a number here.

Jeff: Well, yeah, I just didn't know about this. You know about ground truth countries in Google Maps?

Leo: No.

Jeff: There are now 50 of them. I said what the heck is a ground truth country? Google determines certain countries need better maps; not that there aren't also other crowd source mapping solutions. So they make an effort and bring people in to try to improve maps and add more richness to the maps. They now have 50 countries that they focus on to radically improve the maps there. I just found that vaguely interesting. Not terribly interesting, but vaguely interesting.

Leo: That's pretty cool.

Jeff: I was also desperate for a number, so when I say 50 I jumped at it.

Leo:  OpenStreetMap is a really cool idea, but I guess this puts it into the Google Maps, which I guess everybody uses.

Jeff: Exactly.

Leo: Cool.

Jeff: Some weeks it's funny, I will have 20 numbers, and some weeks there is just not a number to be had.

Leo: Anil, it looks like you wanted to share a little something with us.

Anil: Yeah, I've got a pick. It's a Twitter account that I though everyone should follow. It's called valleyedits, and it's a spinoff, there is a whole series of Twitter accounts, parlimentwikiedits out of the UK was the first. That led into congressedits, which is a great follow. Congressedits is anonymous members of the staff of Congress making edits to Wikipedia. We should see what articles they are editing. Valleyedits is that for the big tech companies. So if you look at Twitter, and Apple, and Google, and Facebook what are their employees while on the clock, on the job, at the office editing on Wikipedia. These are silly and light like Apple employees editing a pressure cooker entry. But it's something where we thing about Wikipedia is so much of the definitive record of what culture is, then let's see if there is any self-interest going on from these tech companies writing about things that actually directly impact them. It's nice because it's not a ton of tweets, it's not really, really noisy, but if you want to look at the impact of how are big tech companies trying to shape the world and shape culture it can be really powerful. If you look at the topics they are writing about then there can be a little bit of an indication of well, somebody at this company thinks this is interesting. I wonder what the implications are for their products.

Leo: So valleyedits on Twitter, @valleyedits. One of a whole set of these. Somebody should make a list of all of these.

Anil: Yeah, actually if you go to congressedits and look at who it is following, it's following about 68 account right now and most of them are government trackers. So government in Germany, what are the government officials editing? There are for all different things, they are from certain universities, from big tech companies, there's one for pharmaceutical companies; what are their employees editing on Wikipedia? This view directly into who is editing this information I have found really makes me wish I had it for everything.

Leo: Yeah, no kidding. I mean you can go into any Google article and see who has edited it, but by IP address. You have to then match it up to Apple, or Google, or whoever.

Anil: It's always been theoretically possible, but to be able to just go in and in a click have it delivered to you between congressedits and valleyedits it's been very, very eye opening for me.

Leo: We are going to have Kevin Marks on next week to talk about the IndieWeb, something that we are very intrigued by and excited about. I want to thank Anil Dash for being here. Thinkup.com, now a free trial available for you. This is something new that they have started doing for you at thinkup.com.

Anil: No credit card, just go sign up.

Leo: It really is great, normally $5 a month. Before the show, I guess I didn't show my ThinkUp during the show, but before the show we were going through it. It really is a great source of insight into what my tweets mean and who I'm talking to. It's kind of fun to read, too.

Anil: I have to be so thankful to the TWiG audience. Obviously Gina is on the show, but it's been kind of the core of how we have been able to get ThinkUp out in the world. I'm so appreciative of folks that watch and listen to TWiG.

Leo: Yeah, love it.

Gina: Yeah.

Jeff: Hey, you, TWiGgers. If you don't have ThinkUp get it right now. It's free to try, it’s fun.

Leo: You are missing the fun.

Jeff: Right.

Leo: And Gina revealed to me, I think it was on this show last week, that it's all about making the web a kinder, gentler place. So it's changing the world one tweet at a time. Thank you.

Jeff: Which I really like.

Gina: Thank you.

Leo: Gina Trapani, of course the woman behind the code, and she is also a very welcome contributor to the TWiT Network on All About Android every Tuesday night and This Week in Google every Wednesday. Thank you Gina, I hope you feel better.

Gina: Oh, thank you, this was a lot of fun today.

Leo: Yeah, always great to have you and Anil on. Thank you to Jeff Jarvis for joining us from the City University of New York. We do TWiG every Wednesday afternoon, 1:00 pm Pacific, 4:00 pm Eastern time, 2000 UTC on twit.tv. We would love it if you watched live, but if you can't we know that sometimes it's a little tough. Don't worry; we have audio and video available for download for you so you can watch any time on demand. Just visit twit.tv/twig or subscribe using your favorite pod catcher whether it's iTunes or whatever; DoggCatcher, and Instacast, there are so many different ones.

Gina: Pocket Cast.

Leo: Pocket Cast. Is that your favorite on Android?

Gina: Yes.

Leo: I use DoggCatcher I think.

Gina: DoggCatcher is great, too.

Leo: DoggCatcher. You know, whatever you have got your subscriptions entered in to there is no incentive ever to change. We also have some great apps on Android and all of the other platforms from our 3rd party developers including Roku. Craig Malini of Houdini 7 fame, he's in our chatroom as Houdini 7, says there is a great app for us on Roku. Find all of the TWiT apps; watch whenever you can, we love having you. Thanks for joining us. We will see you next time on This Week in Google! Bye, bye.