This Week in Google 278 (Transcript)
Jason: Coming up on This Week in Google, I'm here in place of
a sick Leo who's at home binge-watching Netflix. We've got Gina, we've got
Jeff, we've got Danny Sullivan of Search Engine Land.
We're going to be talking all about Google's efforts to tailor its services to
the younger generation. We're going to be talking about Google+ a little bit.
We're going to be talking about CAPTCHAs and how Google's trying to make
CAPTCHAs a little bit more friendly for humans. It's
all coming up next on This Week in Google.
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Jason: This is TWiG, This Week in
Google, episode 278 for Wednesday, December 3, 2014.
Google
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It's time for TwiG, This Week
in Google, where we get together and talk about Google, the Cloud, social, pretty much anything that the gang wants to talk
about. I am obviously not Leo Laporte, my name is
Jason Howell. I host a few other shows on the network, All About Android is one of them and if you like Google, maybe you like Android so maybe
you've seen me over there. But this is my first TwiG.
I'm a little intimidated, ain't gonna lie, but it's made a little easier because I have a lot of awesome people
joining me on the show today.
First up, my cohort from All About Android, Gina Trapani. How you doing, Gina?
Gina: Good, good. Good to be here. It's so weird in a cool,
awesome way to have you hosting TwiG. I love it. I
saw you a mere 20 hours ago, Jason, doing All About Android. I love it.
Jason: It's like a reunion right now. We're one Ron shy of a
reunion.
Gina: Yes, we are.
Jason: That's all right. Well, it's awesome to be doing a
show with you less than 24 hours later.
Gina: Yes! Double it up.
Jason: And, of course, Jeff Jarvis joins us as well. How's it
going, sir?
Jeff: All right, all right. We were doing pronunciation
guide before the show on Leistungsschutzrecht. Jason, all ready?
Jason: Yes. So you sprung, literally ten seconds
before we started, “Hey, you should learn this word.” And, Leistungsschutzrecht?
Jeff: Yes, you're getting there. You're getting
there. That's all you need to know. That's it.
Jason: Okay. I'm going to forget it in like five
seconds.
Jeff: Wait.
Jason: Leistungsschutzrecht.
Yes, okay. I'm going to give up on that for now. And also
joining us to fill out the panel today, Danny Sullivan from Search Engine Land. How's it going, sir?
Daniel: Hey. Good, how are you? It's great to be
here.
Jason: Excellent, super thrilled to have you join
us today.
Jeff: Can I say something about you, Danny?
Daniel: Sure.
Jeff: So Danny and I were at the Newsgeist un-conference run by Google and the Knight
Foundation at Phoenix University. I've always had immense respect for Danny,
but after we had the session about what Google could do for news and Danny's
insightful, incisive comments, I just left saying, “Damn, that guy is effing
smart.”
Daniel: Aw, thank you.
Gina: Nice.
Jeff: I've always been a fan, Danny. But boy,
when you sit down to analyze one of the issues at hand, you really just are
amazing at having the right perspective and the right way to say it. So I'm
always happy when you're on the show.
Daniel: Well, thank you very much. It was good to
be here. And it was fun being in Professor Jarvis' classroom.
Jason: Professor Jarvis.
Gina: I want video, I want video. Come on!
Daniel: Yes, for one of the sessions we all sat
down in this classroom setting. I was like, “Wow, do I get to call you
Professor?”
Jeff: That makes me feel very old, Danny. Very old.
Jason: So let's see here. So I was kind of poring
through stories to fill out the dock. Of course, I'd say I'm closest to Android
content, but wow, there's been no Android news. So let's not start there. How
about we start with the thing that literally, I think I saw come through less
than an hour ago but it kind of caught my attention. That is that Google is
going to kind of put their efforts behind creating products and tailor
products, their most popular products, for 12 and under. For
children, essentially. Pavni Diwanji, who is the VP of Engineering at Google, told USA
Today the company is looking to create these tailored versions of their
services. She says the big motivator inside the company is everyone is having
kids.
So there's a push to change the products to
be fun and safe for children. It kind of goes without saying that kids under 13 and internet services have long kind of been
considered off limits when it comes to these services. She said, “We aren't
looking to play gotcha, it's just about kids being protected and promoting
business compliance.” Kind of an interesting effort. I
suppose it makes perfect sense that Google would want to do this. Google's
always looking to kind of broaden their reach, broaden their scope and
everything. Does it sound like this might be something that Google's going to
have to kind of fight for in order to pull off successfully? What do you guys
think?
Gina: It's so interesting that they said that
they're doing this because lots of people at the company are having kids. That
really struck me, right? Because, you know, Google is so grounded in geek
culture and certainly there's this like, “Build the thing that you need,
scratch your own itch.” We know that Google has this 20% time where you can
build the products that matter to you. So of course, if Googlers are having more kids, they're going to focus more on kids. But that sort of
thing makes me really nervous because what they're really saying is, “We build
the things that we need ourselves.” If you look at Google's diversity numbers,
we all know that people who work at Google are very well paid and of a certain
class and often of a certain gender and color. So it makes me a little bit
nervous. That said, you know, designing products for kids online gets a little tricky because of COPA, the Child Online Privacy Act.
Jason: Right.
Gina: There's a lot of
pretty strict rules about what information you can collect, which is like none,
and that kind of thing. So I wonder how Google's going to navigate that. I
mean, when I worked on a social network, a very early social network back in
the day called Bolt, which is no longer around. It was sort of like Facebook
for high school students back in the day. That was a big deal, you know, the
not signing up kids under 13 and kids lying about their age, which is what
every kid does, especially now like on Xbox. It was always kind of a big deal
and COPA, this looming thing that we were going to get caught for doing
something wrong, was always kind of a big deal. So I wonder how they're going
to handle that.
Jeff: Yes, I remember COPA was changed about a
year ago. They made it basically more stringent in some ways that I thought was
a bit silly. One example was, that if you try to do an
educational game for students with geography tied to where they live, that
would be PII, even knowing anything about what town they're in and you couldn't
use that. So it's hard to imagine how Google can target services, personalized
services, to a young person without getting in COPA trouble. I mean, I'm glad.
I think making young people more literate about research and how to find things
and all that is wonderful. But, boy, I do see. Danny, have you heard any rumblings about this is going to cause trouble for Google,
too?
Daniel: In terms of having COPA stuff come in?
Jeff: Yes, privacy stuff and, “Oh my God,
Google's trying to exploit children.”
Daniel: I was skimming through the article just
now and you could see the Epic was already coming and saying, “We don't want to
sell them products and stuff,” and whatever. So, yes, I'm sure that will come
in as an issue for them. But, I guess I'm kind of -
Jeff: I wish journalists would find one other
person than that made up organization. Just one.
Daniel: Yes. Well, someone's going to do it and if
not, you know, in about a weeks someone in Congress
will send a letter asking seven questions for Google to explain what their
plans are. But, I think that – I think we're long overdue to recognize kids are
getting online and using products and services from all sort of companies. The
idea that you want to have them protected but, you know, my kids have had
Facebook accounts and my youngest only just recently turned to the age where he
could actually have one, right? You want to get them going with Google Play stuff, you even want to get them going on the Xbox,
whatever. You're just making up stuff. So we've got protections that sometimes
don't actually base themselves in the reality and it doesn't allow the
companies to offer better things that they could do.
So, yes. I think it makes sense. It's kind of
amusing though, because as I was skimming through it, one of the things that
was motivating them was her daughter was searching for trains and didn't get
Thomas the Tank Engine to come up, right? And I'm thinking, “Okay, it's not
like Google hasn't thought for years they should have a kids' search engine.”
It's not like we didn't have things like Yahooligans, which died. If anybody
remembers it was Yahoo's thing. I suspect that what they're going to discover
is, what might be a great idea it sounds like – it just makes me laugh, like,
“And now we're having kids!” The company is 15 years old. The company has been
having kids all along, okay? It's not like they just discovered this sort of thing
but, you know.
Jeff: You know, I just
looked up that Facebook said last year that they were going to develop services
for under-13s and I don't think we've heard anything about that since, have we?
Daniel: No, but I suspect part of the problem is
you – it sounds like a great idea, and then you develop it and it's like, “Well, how are you making money off of it?” Right? Because if you have ads that are
targeting the kids, they come under especial scrutiny even if you're not
personalizing the stuff to the kids. All you need is a kid going to a
kids' search engine and doing a search, getting an inappropriate ad and it's
even worse than if they used a regular search engine and they got the
inappropriate ad.
Jeff: Danny, do they have to have ads? If you argue
that this is a way to indoctrinate, brainwash and enslave little children as
they get older to use the real thing.
Daniel: No, you don't have to and in fact, that's
what Bing was doing with their Bing for Schools program, which is still
running. I think they had some games with it where they were saying, “Look,
we're going to give you a search engine that's doing no targeting, that's doing
nothing whatsoever than to be out there so you can use it.” In fact, they poked
back at Google because Google, if you recall, I think it was about a year ago –
Google's program that they ran for kids in schools. They'll do the same sort of thing, give you a kid-friendly filtered search engine.
But they had these terms that sort of suggested that they might still build up
profiles. So you're all like, “Oh, so you're still building up profiles of the
kids,” or whatever. And that didn't go well in some quarters, if I remember at
all correctly. So you don't have to have it. But if you want to have a
child-specific – you don't have to have it, but then the question is, what's your motivation in doing it?
So for Facebook, what's their motivation in
building out a child service for kids? To capture them early, I suppose. But
then they may just feel like, “Yeah, it sounds like a good idea but the kids
are getting online already so we just sort of ignore all this.” It's solving a
problem that maybe they don't necessarily have because the parents and everyone
else are just solving it anyway, until someone sues them.
Gina: Well, and I mean, Chromebooks have a lot
of young users, right? Because they're so popular in
education. And, you know, Apple and part of the Mac's comeback had to do
with it being so popular in elementary schools. I wonder if this is kind of a
gateway or if this could be a gateway for Google creating a no-ad paid for
product. I think there are parents that would pay $5 a month or whatever to
have a kid-friendly Google that doesn't track their kids and doesn't advertise
towards their kids but gives them kid-friendly search results and Thomas when
they search for trains. But I don't know, maybe that's a whole different thing.
Jason: I could see that.
Jeff: Boy, isn't that a can of worms, Gina, when
you define kid friendly across this country?
Gina: Yes, that's true.
Jeff: No... evolution?
No evolution.
Gina: Absolutely. No, no, it is a can of worms.
I'm wondering more about the pay for – I know, I think there was, we covered an
article a few episodes back where I think Larry Page was talking about
different initiatives they considered inside Google. One of those things was
the option to pay for, a customer pay for a Google account without being
advertised to. Was that an option? And I wonder. I wonder if Google ever really
considers that as a different business model because they're just so heavily,
you know. Their main revenue is about advertising. That's got to worry them
that their primary source of income is advertising when a kid's product like
that just isn't suited toward that business model.
Jason: Yes, maybe then it is just less about
making money directly off the kids by serving ads and more just giving them the
tool that they're already going to use anyway but in the long term, you know,
like you were saying, Jeff. Kind of embolden – kind of attaching them to
Google's services. Almost like, you know, advertisements for Coca Cola. You see the billboard for Coca Cola. That's not
necessarily going to push you out to go buy a Coca Cola because we all know
Coca Cola at this point. But it kind of confirms your belief in Coca Cola. It's
like, “Yeah. That's up there and I see it and identify with it.” It's like
confirmation that you're making the right decision. Same could apply here. It's
not necessarily a direct money grab at kids, throwing ads at them or whatever,
but kids are doing this anyways, right? Like we were talking about, parents are
creating accounts for their kids so that they can get on and send email.
Nowadays, in school, now more than ever the internet is intrinsically a part of
how children learn. I have to imagine a lot of that starts before the age of
13. So how do you approach that with kids that are younger than 13?
Jeff: How old are your kids, Danny?
Daniel: Mine are 13 and 15. So they're just in
that transition age right now.
Jeff: Right, exactly. I went to Henry Blodgett's
business insider conference and he pulled a great trick that Web 2.0 conference
used to do of having a panel of teenagers talk about their uses. So standard
questions are, are they using Facebook? Is Instagram
their social network? Where are they on what services they use?
Daniel: They're big on Instagram, you know, more
than Facebook. A little bit more on Twitter. So their
Facebook is actually relatively minimal, which is just interesting. They don't
use Snapchat, which surprised me, because apparently everybody uses Snapchat.
But they don't do much Snapchatting or whatever. So,
they don't use Google+.
Gina: Shocking.
Daniel: They do use Google and they do a lot on
the Xbox, actually. You know, they connect with a lot of their friends on the
Xbox. I think Xbox sometimes gets under-credited for the amount of social
activity it has on there. I think that's all down to Microsoft doing a really
poor job of bringing it off the Xbox platform. But, you know, my son the other
day, we were playing and I had sent him a message and said, “Why didn't you
answer me?” And he said, “Why didn't you send me an Xbox chat thing?” And I was
like, “Because I'm really old?”
Jason: Because I don't have an Xbox right in
front of me here at work.
Daniel: I thought just yelling really loudly from
downstairs was going to be effective but, you know.
Gina: I find those panels or those – a friend of
mine published an interview with his 14-year-old niece about – I feel it's
really weird. You're never going to find a panel of teenagers that represent
all teens. It's just strange. I feel like adults, you could get 100 opinions
about what social networks they use and I feel like it's the same thing with
teenagers. I mean, my 14-year-old niece says she doesn't use Facebook because
the old people took over, you know? Her mom's really big, uses Facebook a lot
and I have nephews who are on Facebook and also Xbox is a big one. I just think
it really depends on the kid and the region and the age and what their friends
are doing. What sort of caught fire in their particular class? I don't know. I
just feel like when we're like, “Oh, what are the kids doing?” There's just no
straight answer for that, you know?
Jeff: That's a good point. So what about you,
mother of young one? Does a kiddie version of Google sound appealing?
Gina: Yes, I mean, it does. It does. I mean, I
don't know. I really wrestle with what it's going to be like when Etta starts
experimenting and looking at things. She's already wanting to play with all my devices.
Jason: It only gets worse, Gina.
Gina: Yes, I'm sure.
Jason: And fast, yes.
Jeff: How old are yours, Jason?
Gina: Yes, Jason is closer. He's definitely
closer than I am. I mean, your kids are downloading games and...
Jason: Yes, so I have a 1- and a 4-year-old,
almost 5-year-old. You know, she has – I have the Nexus 6 with Lollipop. It has
a profile on it for her that I specifically use so that my Youtube and whatever doesn't get filled with Frozen, Barbie doll movies and everything.
But, yes. I agree with you, though, Gina. It's a really tough question to
answer when it comes to your kids. Because I feel like we're kind of in this
weird zone where we're learning, along with everybody else, what's appropriate
for really young children when it comes to the internet. On one hand, you want to protect them from the dangers of the internet and the
bad things they can find and everything. But on the other hand, the future lies
and the present – very much the present, but also the future lies in internet
technologies. I don't want to hold my kid back and deny the fact that these
things exist and you know what? Chances are, a lot of, most of your future, at
least in the near term is going to revolve around this technology. So embrace it
versus fear it. It's a different, very fine line though. You know, I don't
know. That's kind of how I feel about it.
Gina: It's true. I mean, my plan is really to
have no plan. I'm going to just let her show me what she's interested in. But I
realize if I show her – you know, I showed her one
Elmo video on Youtube a few months ago. Now, all she
wants is Youtube and more playlists on Youtube and Elmo on Youtube. So
anything I kind of just give her a taste of, she wants more because it's
compelling and the tablet is just laying around the
house. As soon as she sees the tablet – also, you know, we
video chat with family members. So in my mind, I'm like, “I'm going to
let her guide me,” but I also realize that what I show her, she wants more of.
So it's really, I'm kind of taking it as it comes.
Jason: Fair enough. And, Jeff, what you were
talking about, the Business Insider's IGNITION Conference, a few interesting
things just to kind of summarize that real quick here.
A group of New York teens that were kind of interviewed on what we're talking
about right now about productivity, how they work at school, do their work at
school and beyond. A couple of interesting things that they pointed out – of
course, this could be regional, kind of like what you were talking about, Gina.
Different around different areas of the country, but they say collaboration and
mobility all revolve around the internet for their work. That makes perfect
sense.
See, Google Drive dependency is huge.
Google Drive is it.
Jeff: This is informative of a story we just
discussed.
Jason: Yes, exactly.
Jeff: Because this is strategic.
Jason: Yes, exactly. From an early state, they
are relying – most of their work is dependent on Google Drive.
Jeff: Microsoft? What's Microsoft?
Jason: Exactly, no Microsoft, no Word, no Office.
Daniel: Sadly, I still have plenty of demands that
I've got to install Word, because our school still wants things written in
Word.
Jeff: Yes, I wouldn't think of the school as -
(crosstalk)
Jason: I wouldn't count Microsoft out as
completely. I wish it would, because I don't ever want to install software
again so they can write a 3-page essay. Oh my God.
Gina: Dumb question, can't they use Google Docs
and then export it as a Word doc?
Jeff: No, my daughter screams at me and says the
professor – the professors. The teachers don't want this and they want Word,
and this reason and that reason. Yes, I've tried to convert it over.
Gina: That sounds like writing a book. Ugh.
Jason: Then, finally, because I think this totally
relates as well. Some new data from IDC are actually pointing to Google's
Chromebooks overtaking the presence of Apple iPads in US schools. They noted
715 thousand Chromebooks shipped in the third quarter compared to 702 thousand
iPads shipped to schools in the third quarter. Citing all the things I've heard
about on This Week in Google, anyways, and I completely agree, I'm using a
Chromebook Pixel right now and I love it. Lower cost, although the Pixel is not
lower cost, but most of the time they're lower cost. So, bad
comparison.
Jeff: Well, there were great Black Friday sales.
There was $149, I think it was – I forget which brand. But one of the other
ones, and I actually bought the Toshiba. The only thing that bothers me about
it is, it doesn't have LTE but it's HD screen, nine
hours – the reason I bought it was because when I go to Europe and stuff, I can
get more airplane time on it without plugging in. So nine
hours battery, faster processor than the Pixel. I'll see how it works,
but it's just amazing. I got that for $267 with HD. It's amazing, the prices
now.
Jason: I mean, Chromebooks are regularly -
Daniel: What are you going to do on it, though,
for nine hours without an internet connection?
Jeff: I write stuff.
Daniel: Oh, okay.
Jason: Oh, yes, exactly. And there are ways to
work offline as well. Let's see here, better security measures is another one,
which I think is a pretty big deal when you're talking about schools, you know,
all the different users. Which this kind of harkens back to
our discussion earlier. You almost need – well, you need a Google
account to use a Chromebook, right?
Gina: Yes.
Jeff: Yes.
Daniel: Yes. But, I mean, you can have Google
accounts if you're under 13, I'm pretty sure. I can't
remember if I faked the numbers or not, but you can have them.
Gina: Google Apps for education have to allow
for that, yes. There has to be some way. I mean, you can browse as Guest. You
can use a Chromebook as a guest, but you definitely would want a Google Account
so I wonder what's – (crosstalk)
Jason: Particularly if the Drive integration is a such a big deal.
Jeff: Whoa, whoa, wait a second. Nope, “Below
are the minimum age requirements to own a Google account. US 13, Spain 14,
South Korea 14, Netherlands 16, all other countries,” I'll put it in the chat. “All other countries 13.”
Gina: Netherlands, 16? I wouldn't have called
that. I would've thought they would be nine.
Jeff: I wouldn't either. I just put that in the
Doc chat. Or the chat chat,
sorry.
Jason: Also, another reason, full keyboard. So,
you know, once the iPad came along, the tablet era began or re-began, depending
on how you look at it. People are kind of wondering, hey, are keyboards going
to be useless in ten years when our kids who are growing up using devices that
have touchscreens and everything, learn on that at first and continue on.
Jeff: Yes, but you can't – you still need a
keyboard.
Jason: Yes, more and more it's proving to be the
case.
Jeff: I saw, some country, I forget where it
was. But some country was going to basically stop teaching penmanship and just
teach typing.
Jason: Not surprised at all.
Gina: Interesting.
Jeff: Well, they might as well have not taught
me because mine is the worst. Here's my penmanship.
Jason: I can read a word.
Gina: I sort of see, you can sort of print too.
It's funny, I think cursive is a complete waste of
time. I print, but I do it quickly so it's a little bit scripty.
I mean, the lines and words kind of move together. But
I feel like, yes, if you can print and it's legible, just skip the cursive and
go straight to typing.
Jeff: I wish I was a British journalist, because
you're forced to learn shorthand.
Gina: Shorthand? Oh.
Jeff: That would have been a good skill.
Gina: That's a superpower, for sure.
Jason: I guess you could take a shortcut and get
a cursive font that you use.
Gina: Or you just tap the “Record” button on
your phone. That's another idea.
Jason: That's true, that's very true. Hey, let's
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All right.
Jeff: So cool.
Jason: Yes, it really is.
Gina: Really, really cool. I want that.
Jason: It's a lot of fun. Let's see here. So is
there anything that you guys are particularly charged up about, talking about?
Like Google+? Do you want to go down the Google+ rabbit hole right now? What do
you think?
Gina: Yes, let's do it.
Jason: All right. I'm curious to see where this
heads. I personally love Google+, use it all the time.
Gina: Before we start, is Mike in the studio? Is
he listening right now? I need to know before we start.
Daniel: You are in your underground bunker so I
think you'd be all right.
Jason: That's true, Mike can't reach you. Also,
it's his birthday today. So he's probably in a particularly good mood and I
don't think he's here anymore. I think he's actually celebrating his birthday,
which is what he should be doing, really.
Gina: Okay, so I can say whatever I want about
Mike.
Jason: It's cool.
Daniel: He'll never hear any of this.
Jason: Totally, it's not recorded in any way.
Daniel: Is this a safe zone?
Gina: It's just us. It's just us girls, let's do
it.
Jeff: Gina, Mike's off having 450 thousand
people wish him a happy birthday on Google+.
Gina: That's right.
Jason: No big deal.
Gina: No big deal.
Jason: So let's see here. What are we talking
about? Chris Messina, who is the former developer, advocate and US designer for
Google+ took to Medium and kind of came out swinging against his old project.
He wrote about how Google+ has messed up, I'll say, although he didn't use
those words. He used, you know, words that I can't say and dropped the ball. He
complains about how David Besbris, who's Google's
head of social media, has pretty much said nothing publicly about his vision
for Google+ since he took his role a few months back. Chris also points out the
iOS updates to the Google+ app have literally trickled over the last year while
competing services have iterated quickly and shown that they're much more, in
his mind, dedicated to the platform. Chris also argues that not one social
network like Facebook should have such a demanding lead in the space and a
company like Google is one of the very few that has the resources to
successfully take it on. Yet that doesn't seem to be happening.
So, you know, he's basically asking why
Google+ exists for Google. The company isn't going to use it as universal
repository for our identities within Google, citing that Google took a
conventional approach rather than a forward-looking approach to his challenging
in the social network space. That's kind of where this all starts. Did you guys get a chance to read Chris' post on Medium?
Jeff: I did to hear what my colleagues think,
yes.
Gina: Yes.
Jason: What do we think, starting there?
Gina: So I'm always a little, I don't know. I'm
always surprised when an engineer, anyone really, publicly calls out a former
employee or a former team that they used to work with. That always makes me
stop and question it. I did it once with Lifehacker.
I regretted it later. Because it's one of those things where, you know, you can
talk to people internally but look. It's funny, Chris wrote this because he had
tweeted and kind of snarked about how Google+ had
this bug which it actually turned out it was not a bug at all. It was a Chrome
extension that he'd had installed that was buggy. So I feel like this was him
just explaining why he was kind of a jerk on Twitter about it. Even when it wasn't true.
I think that it's totally reasonable to
question what's going on with Google+, because Google isn't telling us what's
going on with Google+. So I think it makes sense to question it. But I found
Chris' reasons why he thinks it's not going anywhere kind of vague and not
really well backed up. So, I thought Mike Elgin, not to jump to the next thing,
but Mike responded point by point. We all know that Mike has a huge
followership on Google+, has been a very passionate, ardent user of Google+
since the very beginning. I actually found Mike's response to be a little more
religious. He's just super zealous about it and I get it. He's had a really good
experience with Google+. So I'm kind of somewhere in between the two. I've just
stopped -
Jeff: Do you read any Rosenblatz,
Gina?
Gina: I didn't, let's see here.
Jeff: Because Chris linked to it, I put it up
right before the show. It's interesting, because what it really goes into is
the idea that what Google+ could, perhaps should have been was not Facebook
Lite but was Google Me, and was the opportunity for a personal data
marketplace. A data repository, a data storage, I'm not exactly sure what. So it's
interesting to think what Google+ could have been. I have to ask, well, the
other guys see two things going on. One is that Chris is seeing Google+, no
matter what they say, kind of orphaned in terms of what development is
happening and what's going on. But on the other hand, it's not too late to make
Google+ into something. My last point on this one, before we move to Danny, is
that I put up a post last week on the Germans. Don't worry, we won't do Leistungsschutzrecht this week. But the
discussion on Google+ beat the discussion anywhere else. I still find that the
case and I still find better discussion there. I don't want Google+ to die,
which is what I feared that Chris was kind of warning.
Gina: Yes, it seems like everybody wants us to
talk about how much Google+ has failed, but these are all folks that don't use
it. Google+ did nail – I mean, there's a couple of
really good points of Google+ and if you interact on it, it's a great – I mean,
what? We have a community for All About Android, it's
fantastic. We run our polls there now, it's fantastic. I just find it really –
it feels like everyone is kind of like, “Oh, gotcha! Google put something out
there and it failed. They did it again! They failed with Buzz and they failed
with Wave and now they're failing with Google+!” It's just a weird thing,
especially since if you look at Google+ holistically, which is as a platform
and not a social network newsfeed, it's wildly successful and I use it every
single day. I use Google+ Photos, I use Hangouts, I sign
into my Google+ profile. It's comments on Youtube, it's comments in the Play Store.
It's a tremendous thing, and I actually
think Google Me has gotten built. It wasn't called that. But it's Google Now,
right? Google continues to – Google accomplished something huge with Google+ is
they put all their products under one privacy, one terms of service and one
privacy policy and gave themselves permission – and it gave you the opportunity
to opt out of giving them permission for all their products to talk to one
another and let one another know about what your data is, where. So Google
really is a repository of your personal data and that's why I feel like all
those things kind of came to fruition. But I don't know, I feel like there's still the weird, raging debate about this social network
aspect of Google+, which I think is just like a small part of it.
Jeff: You feel a lot closer to Mike than you do
to Chris.
Gina: Well, you know, I just don't interact on
Google+ a whole lot, just because I don't know why. I don't know. I reach for
Twitter more quickly.
Jeff: Right this moment, there are some city – just a discussion. There are some Google
City experts who have a picture of them watching TWiG live, so let's give them a shoutout. Where did they
put it? On Twitter.
Gina: On Twitter.
Jason: That's Mateo Doni, he's a repeat guest on
All About Android. There he is. Hey, how's it going, Mateo?
Gina: Yes.
Jason: The link's in the
Doc, it's below it.
Gina: I like Twitter because it's low effort,
right? I'm just lazy. It's easier for me to tweet things than to put – one
time, like entering -
Jeff: Yes, but it's high troll.
Gina: It's high troll. That is true, it is high troll, for sure. Hey, hey Mateo!
Jason: So I love Google+, use it all the time, I
would say more than anything, it gets used for the stuff I do here at TWiT and because, you know, part of what Chris is saying
here is that Google+ has ended up being less of an identity thing and more of
an interest service. He's saying, “Is that enough? It could have been so much
more and now it's basically glorified forums of some sort,” or whatever. But
it's true. The conversation you get on Google+ is unlike the conversation I get
anywhere else. Maybe you could liken it to something as active as Reddit, perhaps. You post a Reddit post, you put it up there and it happens to be in this particular buckets, you
know, the Android sub-Reddit or the Apple or whatever
it happens to be. So you're surrounded by all these other people that feel just
the same way that you do. Because they're following it and then they all pile in and create this great conversation around
this particular thought. Google+ definitely feels like that and I don't know.
Could it have been more? Did they mess up the opportunity? I guess there's
still time. There's still hope that Google could do something more with it. But
every time they try and do something more with it, tie it to your social
identity or your online Google identity to Google+, people backlash because
they say, “Don't force me to use Google+. Don't force me into your social plan
because that's not why I use your stuff.”
Gina: Yes.
Daniel: Yes. I mean, I... am not sure quite where
to begin on it. You know, I think that Google+ is a failure in the sense of,
from my perspective, is it top of the line for a lot of digital and social
marketers? And no, it is not. It is not after, what, are we three years into
it? When Dave Besbris had that long interview, I
posted it and I said, “0:38:59.3?” and other people are like, “Here's a long
interview that basically tells us nothing. In fact, not only tells us nothing
about what's going on, but doesn't even give us figures on their user growth,”
which is the first time they've done that in as long as I can imagine. Which
was not a positive thing, because you can argue about
the user numbers all you want but if you don't even give them out anymore,
that's just not a positive thing. Because, if you post something about Google+
on Google+ and it is even remotely negative about Google+, everyone comes out
of the woodworks and just starts yelling.
Interestingly, by the way, and that's part
of the difference. You know, one of the things that Google+ is very successful
for, and I think counts as a big win, as I've written before is, it is a great
place for the fan people. Okay? And it is a great place for the Android
fanatics. Anything to have to do with Google, that is
a home for those people that Google's not happy for. It is the Apple Store of
Google, right? So kudos to them, they've done that, but I quite often can share
things across all three major social networks to me: Twitter, Facebook and
Google. It is only on Google+ where the Google+ stuff has to come into the big
discussion about, is Google+ great? Is Google+ being attacked? Is this a whatever?
People on Facebook don't have those kinds of debates because people on Facebook
are not trying to figure out whether Facebook should exist or not. It does
exist. They see the value in it. They've moved along from that sort of thing.
So to come back when I did this post after three years and I was saying, “Look,
it was fine in year one to say that when I would encounter different social
marketers or whatever, they'd be like, 'I don't know if I should be doing
this,' or whatever. You'd be like, 'Yes, you really should be doing it, if only
because you had a search optimization benefit that came with it.'” You get into
like year two and they're still not kind of doing it. But they are doing things
like Pinterest, right? People won't even question that they should be doing
Pinterest but they can't even take the times to major brands to take five
minutes to make their page or simply share the same thing they put on Facebook,
on Google+. It is not that hard to do and they don't even see the value in
doing that. So when you get into year three and Google has taken away some of
the value of Google+ in the form of, say, authorship or whatever.
We're still having this discussion about,
“Well, people don't get it,” or, “These people don't use Google+.” It's like, you
know what? We're at the tipping point. It's not a question of, “Well, they
don't use Google+ and they don't get it.” It's a question of, why after three
years do so many people clearly not feel compelled that they need to use
Google+? So that's where I would say it's been a failure in terms of it being a
standalone social network. If the goal was to have it come up and be Google's
Facebook, which they never said was their plan but obviously was their plan,
their hope and their dream.
Jeff: I have a question for all three of you.
Daniel: Yes?
Jeff: What are the odds, give me a timetable,
let's say within two years, is Google+ still alive?
Daniel: Yes.
Gina: Google+ the social network.
Daniel: Yes, it's still there.
Jason: I would say so.
Gina: Yes, I actually really – Danny, you made a
really good point in that they made a social network for super users. Maybe
it's just that, you know. Maybe that's good enough.
Daniel: That's a success, and that's what I mean.
You can say it's a failure on one hand but a great thing in other things.
There's a photo community that is there and in fact, perhaps there's an
argument that Google+ has become the new Flickr in some ways, for a certain
group of people. So they have different audiences and maybe there are things
that they can do with it. It's been interesting to also watch them do stuff
like, you know, Google Photos. What I think, to your question, Jeff, is what
happens is Google+ the social network is still there but parts of it start
getting broken up and become more substantial on their own. Google Photos is a
good example of that. Google Photos is an awesome, awesome product that if it
were released from people still feeling like it's tied to Google+, as they're
doing, I think even more people would do it. Why you wouldn't be using Google
auto backup for all your devices, because not everybody has an iPhone, yet you
can use it on everything? Well, you can't use it on Windows phone, but
interesting Windows Phone Backup you can use or OneDrive you can use on all
three of the smartphones.
But, you know, Microsoft still has some
challenges there. But the Google Photo option is wonderful. I think they were
smart when they brought it out as a Photo app. I think as they get people using
that, even if there's not the social aspect necessarily, there's an opportunity
for them to maybe do more with Google Photos. Maybe Google Photos can be kind
of an Instagram type of thing. There's this whole argument that, are we going
into this era of social networks that are no longer the all-in-ones like
Facebook. The real future is, as Facebook seems to think, we just keep building all these little specialty types of things. So, you
know, anyways I'm sure it will be there. I just think you're not going to see a
lot of further development into that particular platform. If you do see new
social efforts, they will probably be more standalone social efforts that may
tie into Google+ in some ways and other parts of Google. But I don't think
you're going to see them as big things within Google+ itself.
Gina: Yes, I mean, it does feel like all the
features in the social app like +1s and comments and those are things – and
authorship, but authorship got taken away. But those are things you see
elsewhere on the web. It seems like Google's building these features out and,
yes, they're all a part of social network but it doesn't feel like that's code
that's, you know, specific. Chris Messina did say, Google only invests in the projects that are doing really well. They killed
Wave because they had less than one million users, right? But in so many ways,
Wave lived on in Google Docs. You see so many of the features and now Google+
with Polls. So I don't know. I do think it's going to be around in some form,
but maybe it'll be broken out into a separate app and maybe not as central. I
think that they launched it with the idea that this was going to be the central
hub and it didn't get the reaction to get the users they thought it would. So
now they're breaking it out.
Jason: Yes, and they certainly had the ambition
in the beginning. Whether they said they did or they didn't now, they had the
ambition for this to be a big, all-encompassing social network. Now, over the
last three years, it's kind of settled into a comfortable niche, tailored-to-niche
zone that it is right now. It's not a bad thing, it's just different.
Jeff: You're right. I think Danny's point is
great but there's another analysis. The other analysis is that Google needed
more social signals. Facebook had the monopoly of the social signals. Google
has social signals, has contextual signals out of Android for a lot of users.
But it didn't have social signals and connections and social graph and all that
to make for a better Google as a service and a better Google as an advertising
company.
Daniel: Absolutely, and -
Jeff: But Danny, I think what I'm saying is, if
that ambition was there, that's dead.
Daniel: I think that's a real problem that they
have too, is if you go back before we got Google+, they wrote out Google+1 and
they said Google+1 was going to be
really important for them to have new signal to use in search. They only got
Google+, you know, that we're putting all this together. But then the +1s were
dropped out of search. Google+, your connections on Google+ still can trump
every other factor on search. If you are logged into Google and you are
connected with a brand or person and do a Google search, all that stuff about
you got to get links or have to have H1 tags, got to have 0:46:46.3? All that gets tossed out the windows. I just did a search
for Mike Elgin, right? I just searched for his name. The second thing that came
up after his name on Google+ was his response to Chris Messina, which is
ranking high because I'm connected to him. So it's figuring out I want to do
this. But I do think they have this issue where they wanted those social
signals and they couldn't get them from Twitter because their deal was crawling
through. They didn't want to get it from Facebook because they just didn't want
to agree to Facebook's terms and that all never happened. But it may be that,
yes, they still have enough of the signals that are coming in to give them some
reassurance, but they still may need to do more. But they are kind of stalled
because I still tend to feel like they need something other than the link
reliance that they still really depend on.
Jeff: Yes. Gina, you were going to say
something?
Gina: But Google has Gmail, I mean, they have
our email. So when you say social signals, I mean they have your contact list
in Gmail and your messages, the people you send, I feel as though those are
even stronger signals than anything that you post publicly. But of course, you
don't have things like links shared or thumbs up or +1s or comments on links.
But I don't know, it seems like they have our email.
Daniel: They can get some of that and we can share
links of it but if you think of it in terms of a ranking signal, Google's
predominant measure is we analyze links across the web and try to figure out
those that sort of have the reputable links in context, right? So that's why
when you – Amazon has a lot of links but when you search for “cars” they don't
come up because nobody links to them with the word cars, right? But people do
link to Amazon and say “books” a lot and they're reputable sites. You can do
that sort of thing with Social, where you say, “Well, this brand has a lot of
followers on Twitter, Facebook, Google, therefore we
think it is a very good authority.” So you could then apply, and if you could
see the linkage between the brand's social accounts and their own website then
you could apply some of that authority to the website and give them a boost
that way. You can also then do the leveraging of, “Well, we've seen a lot of
shares of this particular article. Wow, everybody's into Kim Kardashian's
photo, so you know, we're going to give that some extra credit,” or whatever.
That kind of goes into it as well. It is true that you have an issue that not
everything gets liked that we like. But that's even more an issue when it comes
to links.
Think of all the things that you like in
your life, all the businesses that you're really pleased about that you have a
good experience with or whatever, and how often do you actually go back and
write a blog post about them, make sure to link to them, make sure the link
didn't have a no follow that got put on to it or these other things that go on
there? In contrast, I think arguable many more people who like things are
actually using social to give those signals. So it was like two years ago and I
talked about this thing, like social is when everybody gets to vote. What I was
saying was, when you use links as a method of trying to figure out who should
get votes for search rankings, it is like you are saying democracy in the
United States when it started was, “Everybody gets to vote as long as they're
35 years old and older, owned land and are white.” You know? Most people are
kind of disenfranchised if your idea on how you count votes comes down to
links. So I think social is really important for them, but it's still kind of
early days on how they're figuring all that out. Google+, if that was going to
be the solution, has gotten them a bit closer to it but still has a ways to go.
Gina: They definitely didn't succeed in that
way. But I see your point that those are the social signals they were looking
for.
Jason: Yes, Google+ is one more reason for
someone to log into their browser the minute they turn on their computer as
well. So all that extra information that it gets by just you being logged into
your Google account on your browser -
Jeff: Don't get me started on logging in,
Stella. Don't get me started. This is your four minutes of Jarvis rant. I'm
still having fits about double accounts. When I got the Nexus 6, it was driving
me bananas. Google doesn't have the opportunity to know the full me. Google
thinks I'm schizo. It thinks there's two of me, and they're doubly separate. It makes me schizo to try to deal with it.
Jason: That wasn't four minutes. Come on, I was
expecting something a little longer than that, but that's okay.
Jeff: I'll go easy on you because you're the new
kid.
Jason: All right, I appreciate that. Let's take a
break. Let's let Jeff calm down a little bit. Just a little bit, because we got
to keep him amped up a little bit for the rest of the show. We're going to take
a break, but we want to thank another sponsor of today's episode. That would be SmartThings, creating things for your home,
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All right. So, Brian, I didn't warn you about this
part. But do you know a little something about the Google change log, perhaps?
Brian: Perhaps.
Jason: Let's do it.
Voiceover: The Google change log.
Jason: Gina Trapani with this week's Google
change log.
Gina: Thank you. Thank you, Jason and Brian. So
look, I've got to warn you. It's the week after Thanksgiving. There's not a lot
here but we have a couple of things.
Just today, Google released a new Android
app called Device Assist. It offers live tech support, troubleshooting, tips
and more. The catch is, it's only for Nexus, Google
Play edition and Android 1 devices.
Jason: I have it installed. I can show it while
you talk about it. I don't know if you have the overhead.
Gina: That's great. So in addition to offering
quick access to Google support, the app detects issues in the device's setup,
makes suggestions on things like GPS, connectivity and battery settings to
improve overall performance. It gives you kind of like proactive
troubleshooting to help you sort of get the most out of your device.
Jason: It's like tips.
Gina: How is it looking to you, Jason? Do you get
like a live Googler on the line? Is it like the
Amazon?
Jason: Okay, well, looking for help, send device
information to Google for improved technical support, see Google's... okay,
sure. I don't know what I'm about to do here.
Gina: Are you about to launch a help out here?
Jeff: Oh, you can request a call back. Wow.
Jason: Request a call back, provide a backup
number if you can. “Phone issues will be easier to solve if we can call you on
a different phone.”
Jeff: Wait, is it illegal to like, call them
right now and see what they do?
Daniel: Yes, of course it is.
Jason: So you're telling me to do it, then.
Daniel: Yes! Tell them to call you back. See how
long it takes.
Jason: Oh, that's a – oh, see. Oh.
Daniel: Oh.
Gina: Ah.
Jason: Oh, really, I have to enter information?
Gina: (crosstalk) – your phone number?
Jason: Google, don't you know this about me
already?
Gina: It's an app on your phone. It didn't ask
for access to your number?
Daniel: Cover it.
Jason: That's really weird. (making noises)
Gina: Yes, now I feel like we're putting you on
the spot here, Jason.
Jason: “Describe your issue.” It's only optional
so I don't have to actually describe me issue, so I won't.
Gina: “I'm live in a Google-related podcast and
I'd like for you to comment on Device Assist. That's my issue.”
Jeff: Right now, someone's calling someone at
Google and saying, “Get ready, here comes Jason!”
Jason: Yes, exactly. “We want to call really,
really fast, right? We want everyone to know that this works right away.” So I
guess I would just wait and see, then. I'm sure at some point I'll get a phone
call and it will buzz on my wrist, by the way. So I'll really know when it
comes through. Detected issues, I don't have an issues on the Nexus 6. So apparently I'm good. But it also has this tips column for –
and I think, actually, this is a really good idea. Because so many times,
things inside Android are just kind of buried. You kind of have to discover
them, or know that they're there, or long press something randomly and, “Oh,
hey, I didn't know it did that!” So this is good. This is really good.
Jeff: Like having a little Gina Trapani there to
tell us what.
Jason: Exactly. It should be called the Trapani
Tip.
Jeff: Yes. You know, one of the things we do in
the academe is we observe our colleagues and write memos about it -
Jason: Oops, I'm getting a call, by the way.
Jeff: Oh, oh, go!
Gina: Go!
Jason: This is Jason. Oh, hold on. Oh, it's -
Speakerphone: Thank you for contacting Google. My name
is Tom. Am I speaking with Jason?
Jason: Wow. Yes, you are. How's it going, Tom?
Speakerphone: Hey, Jason. I'm doing well, thanks. It
looks like you set up a call with our new Device Assist app. That's pretty
awesome. What can I help you out with today, Jason?
Jason: I have to be completely honest. I called,
A, to see how fast you would call because I'm very curious. I think this is a
great feature. B, I'm doing a show called This Week in Google, where we talk
all about Google things and you're on the air right now. So you're famous.
Gina: Hi, Tom.
Speakerphone: Thanks, Jason. I really appreciate that,
man.
Jason: You know, that call back only took, man,
what? 30 or 45 seconds? That was super impressive.
This is very cool and a great service you guys have. I just wanted to call and
see how it goes. I appreciate your time and sorry to bother you.
Jeff: What are some of the first questions he's
getting? Has he gotten any questions yet?
Speakerphone: You're not a bother at all.
Jason: So before I let you go, what are some of
kind of the first questions you're getting? Are you getting a lot of these
kinds of questions or are you also getting actual service support questions?
Speakerphone: Well, my shift just started about ten
minutes ago, so I haven't really gotten many calls yet. You're actually my
first call of the day. So, you know what? I guess it's yet to be determined
what kind of questions we're going to be super fielding.
Jason: So your first call ever doing this is live
before thousands of people.
Jeff: How much training did he have?
Jason: How much training did you have?
Gina: This poor guy.
Speakerphone: A few weeks.
Jason: Excellent.
Jeff: Are you in a nice warm place or a cold
place?
Jason: Are you in a warm place or cold place?
That's Jeff Jarvis, one of the hosts on the show.
Speakerphone: I'm in a cold place right now. It's real
windy and rainy today.
Jeff: Well, that's not fair. They should be
moving you to California.
Jason: You are in California, correct?
Speakerphone: Yes, northern California.
Jason: We're experiencing the same weather. We're
up in Petaluma so we have it right out the window as well. Hey, don't want to
bother you. But I really appreciate your time and you know, check out This Week
in Google, you're on it.
Speakerphone: Well, Jason, I'm real glad I was able to
help you out with those questions today. I just want to let you know, at the
end of the call here there is going to be a real brief customer support survey
asking for any feedback you might have on the support you received. I
understand if you've got the time that you need to take for the show, so I'll
go ahead and get you transferred over there. I want to thank you again for
contacting Google and enjoy the rest of your day.
Jason: Right on. Thank you so much. Take care.
Jeff: We've got to give him good grades now.
Gina: Yes.
Jason: All right, I guess I'll give a good grade
while you continue on with the change log?
Gina: Sure, let's do that. Okay, this poor guy.
That was kind of fun. We took up his time, so it only makes sense that they ask
you for feedback. So, Device Assist is available for free in the Play store
right now and it's only available to users in the US with Nexus, Google Play
edition and Android 1 devices running Android 5.0 Lollipop. So
only for the new stuff.
Moving on with the Google change log,
Google Drive apps got a few little useful, but little, tweaks. Let's see, we've
got Gmail on the desktop, now lets you edit Microsoft Office attachments with a
single click. So you open up a Gmail message, mouse over an attachment, and
click on “Edit with Google Docs,” for Word documents, “Edit with Google
Slides,” for PowerPoint presentations or, “Edit with Google Sheets,” for Excel
spreadsheets. Then you can start editing and using them in Google Drive right
away. They now support 15 Office formats including
Presentation Show files, that's .pps, .ppsx, macro-enabled files and template files with better
charts, images and table support. So really good Office
support there in Gmail and Google Docs, Google Drive.
Google Docs got a few other little, minor
features. You can now merge cells of a table in Google Docs. That's exciting.
You can now edit images inside of a Google Doc. If you've got a Google Doc with
an image embedded in there, you can right-click on the image, choose “Format”
and you can change the color, transparency, brightness, this is similar to what
was available in Slides. It's now in Docs.
Google Slides, on the web, got a minor
update. You can show slide numbers throughout your show. So you can go to the
“Insert” menu and you can include slide numbers.
Finally, in the change log,
MadeWithCode.com is a project that Google launched, I think a few months back.
It's there to encourage girls to start learning how to code. They're doing a
holiday promotion where, starting today, on MadeWithCode.com, girls can use the
introductory programming language Blockly to animate
the lights of the state and territory trees that will decorate the President's
Park, one of America's 401 national parks and home to the White House, through
the holiday season. So this is pretty cool. You go to MadeWithCode.com, you
press the “Get Coding” button and there's kind of this web-based whizzy wig Blockly language that shows you a Christmas Tree or holiday
tree and let's you pick out which lights should show,
how often they should blink, where they should be and you can adjust variables
and kind of drag and drop these pieces. Then, I believe that the park is going
to choose a few of the programs submitted through this site and they're
actually going to program the lights to blink in that way. So
a really neat little holiday thing, if you've got kids in your life. It's a neat way to start programming.
Yes, there you go. Nice, Brian.
Jason: I love that. That's awesome. Hey Brian,
you did it! You did it, Brian!
Gina: You did it, you set a variable.
Brian: I'm coding!
Gina: Increment it, increment it!
Jason: I don't know how Brian does it. He codes
and he switches the show. It's kind of unbelievable.
Gina: That's amazing. It is amazing.
Brian: It's the future.
Gina: Yes, he changed the color of the lights.
Hey! It's cute. So, you know, when your kid is really bored, just be like,
“Hey, go to this website. Make the lights do pretty things.”
Jeff: Take over the world, be a technologist for
Christmas.
Gina: Step two. That's all I got in the change
log.
Jason: All you got for the Google change log!
That's how Leo does it, right?
Jeff: Did either of you guys download Wire?
Jason: Wait a minute, what is Wire?
Jeff: Wire.com, it's a new chat app that was
funded by the founder of Skype and it doesn't work on the Nexus 6. I'm pissed
and I want to know.
Jason: I saw it earlier and, man, I meant to
install it but I -
Jeff: You can't get it.
Jason: Okay, fine, I won't even try.
Jeff: Nexus 6 can't get it.
Jason: Well, that's a bummer. Are you finding a
lot of incompatibility with apps on the Nexus 6?
Jeff: No, but you would think that's the one
they'd get it to work. But - (crosstalk)
Jason: I suppose so.
Gina: The website has many beautiful people
having exciting conversations on it.
Jeff: Yes.
Jason: You know, another
messaging service.
Gina: Oh, so this is an iOS app.
Jason: No, there's Android.
Jeff: There's Android,
iOS...
Gina: Oh, okay.
Jeff: Talk, message, ping, groups, photos,
sound, I guess.
Gina: There isn't a web app. That's why you
can't use it on the Chromebook.
Jeff: Just mobile. I was just wondering.
Gina: Oh, “Browser coming soon.” Wah-wah.
Jason: Wah-wah. So now
it's facing the challenge of hitting critical mass so everybody's using it.
Man, there's so many of these messaging apps out there.
Gina: “Back in my day -” (crosstalk)
Jeff: There's ten of
them for the Nexus 6, they're losing us.
Jason: Yes, exactly. So let's see here. Let's hit
on a few of these here real quick, since I'm realizing we're nearing the end,
anyways, of the show. So how about this? Google is
redoing the CAPTCHA, did you guys see this? They announced a new approach to
CAPTCHAs. CAPTCHAs are normally hated by humans, by the way. They call the new
system No-CAPTCHA. It's built on a new API. Essentially, the system prescreens
users and identifies humans in advance of the CAPTCHA. So, ultimately, the user
will see a checkbox and nothing more if they're identified as human by the time
they get there. A more advanced test can be run if the system can't tell for
sure and then it's something like text recognition, image recognition, that
type of stuff. Cool, because I hate CAPTCHAs. I know I'm not alone.
Gina: Yes, you know, reCAPTCHA's always, and CAPTCHAs in general, always felt like this weird, old-fashioned
thing. Like programmers just forced it upon users like, “Hey, this is too hard
for us to figure out so now you have to squint at some blurry image and type
this thing in,” right? The thing about No-CAPTCHA is I kind of want to know how
it works. It's got that problem, right, the SEO
problem where if they tell you the algorithm, then the bots would be able to
beat it. So now it's this black box, I guess, of I'm not sure how it works. But
I guess you just embed some code in Google, it calls back to Google and Google
figures out, based on your IP address and how you behave on the page whether or
not you're a bot. I sort of -
Jeff: It's the true Turing test.
Gina: Yes. Yes, it's sort of like -
Jeff: Are you human?
Gina: Right. I am not a robot. That's the
checkbox. If it can figure out, if it decides that you are not a bot, it will
just show a checkbox, whether you can check it. If it can't decide, though, it
will default – not default, but fall back on a CAPTCHA or it'll show you the
image and you have to whatever, pick the kitten or whatever it is. So I think
it's a good thing for users but it also makes me a little bit worried, like,
what if my IP address gets marked as a bot? Are there going to be forms I can't
submit? I always get a little worried about these black box things when I don't
know how it works.
Jason: You're stuck in CAPTCHA purgatory. Nobody
wants to be stuck in CAPTCHA purgatory. Maybe some people in the chatroom that
I saw proclaiming their love for CAPTCHAs. I don't believe them.
Daniel: I always love the story, though, about
how, was it Louis von Ahn who did the CAPTCHAs where
it was taking text from scanned books that they couldn't quite recognize? It
was a great story, like five years ago. They would take text from books that
couldn't get recognized and it turned out the biggest use of CAPTCHA was on
porn sites. So he was causing all these people who wanted to get online porn to
first help digitize all these classic works of literature by filling out
CAPTCHA forms. Then, the CAPTCHA form would help them, like, “Okay, that's what
that word is.” It was so clever.
Gina: It's pretty great.
Jason: Might as well put the frustration to use. Also, so how about this? You finally thought that Gangnam
Style was a thing of the past. You were wrong. Youtube says that the video has been seen upwards of 2.15 billion times, so many, in
fact, that it grew beyond it's 32-bit integer of 2,147,483,647. As a result, it's throwing off the view count.
So Youtube took to Google+ to announce that they are
now forced to upgrade the system to account for videos as popular as Gangnam
Style. How did we get here? How did we let this happen?
Gina: It's like the Y2K bug all over again.
Jason: Yes, the Gangnam bug.
Gina: The Gangnam bug.
Jason: It's really unfortunate. It's unfortunate.
Yes, there's not a whole lot to say about that, to be honest. What am I missing
here? What things – you know, Jeff, I believe it was you, put in this material
redesign of the Google search page.
Jeff: Yes, I want to hear what the crew thought
about that.
Jason: What's it all about?
Jeff: They took material design and redesigned
Google to it. For those of you listening, it looks very flat and blue.
Jason: It looks kind of like what you would
expect a Google Search page that's been material redesigned.
Jeff: Take a look, what do you guys think?
Jason: Let's see here.
Jeff: My first reaction was, “No, don't change
my Google.” But I'm not sure.
Jason: That's old. That's normal.
Jeff: That's the comforting Google we all know
and love. There it is.
Jason: Yes, very familiar. Very
stark. Okay.
Jeff: Shocking, isn't it?
Jason: A lot of spacing.
Daniel: That's not real, right?
Jason: No.
Gina: No, it's just a proof of concept.
Jeff: Danny's thinking he missed the scoop.
Don't worry, Danny.
Daniel: Yes.
Jason: No, does that hurt your brain a little
bit?
Daniel: Yes.
Jeff: Yes.
Jason: A little too much, kind of white spacing
between – ugh.
Jeff: Here's the question. Is Google due for a
redesign?
Jason: That's a good question.
Gina: It is a good question. I mean it –
(crosstalk)
Daniel: Google has had a redesign, it couldn't
constant redesign – (crosstalk)
Jeff: I know that, but is it made for a big reason?
Daniel: If you want to see what Google looks like,
you don't look at it on the desktop. You look at it on your iPad. In fact, it's
on my calendar, I never get to it. But I wanted to spend a week of dealing with
Google just on the iPad or just on mobile. Because it is a radically different
experience, both in the results you're getting to the presentation. But if you
look on your thing, you'll see it's not a material design so much as it is
almost card-based design. That all flows in through, you know, and you see it
first on mobile then you see it come into the desktop.
Jason: It looks like a lot of wasted space.
Though I really appreciate and like material design on my device. But I don't
know if it necessarily, the browser version, needs to be updated. It's just,
eh. Kind of a little too pretty for Google on the web when Google for years,
and years and years has sort of symbolized simplicity. Just kind of getting
right to the information you're there to look for. That just feels pretty for
no real good reason, I guess.
Gina: It's the Craigslist thing, right? If
Craigslist got redesigned, it would feel inauthentic. I'd be like, “Oh, Bing. I
must have gone to Bing.” It's a little too good looking. It doesn't feel like
authentic Google. I feel like Google's search results on the desktop just get
this weird pass around design. They're just like, “We're going to keep doing
the blue links because this is what it is.” It's just the brand. I think –
(crosstalk)
Jason: People don't feel, necessarily, like it
has to change. Because it's worked so well up until now, I guess it would be
change for the sake of changing it and I don't know if that's necessary.
Gina: Right, it's years, and years and years of data collection and AB testing that went into
every single pixel of the way it looks. I guess you could say that across every
device, but I don't know. It's interesting, my cofounder uses – Anil Dash, he
uses Gmail for the iPad view everywhere. On his desktop, everywhere, he just
likes the way Gmail works in the iPad view. So that's interesting, Danny, I
think that would be a fun piece, you know, Google just on mobile.
Jeff: That's a touch thing, too.
Daniel: It's funny, Gmail, you know, my morning
starts off dealing with my Gmail on the iPad and it's so much more efficient
than dealing with it on desktop when I'm trying to get through all my stuff,
all my tabs or whatever. Yes.
Jeff: What about Inbox? Have you used Inbox?
Daniel: No. In fact, I was just thinking today,
“Is Inbox going to turn into the Google Wave of Gmail,” but that could just be
me. It was so weird when I went to it in the first place, and then also because I can't use it on a regular Google. Of course, you can't
use it on Google Apps accounts. Heaven forbid we do anything with our Google
App account out of the box.
Jeff: Don't get me started, Danny! Don't get me
started.
Daniel: So I've been sending all my mail to my
Google account, but then I don't check that often so it's hard to use on a
regular basis. It was just weird. I didn't know that weird was better, I kind
of think the Gmail app is a pretty good app.
Jeff: You know, the other thing is, the offline
Gmail app, which I of course use on my Chromebook, is really good. By the way,
it very easily and smoothly goes back and forth between the two accounts with
no hiccups, no headaches, no problems whatsoever. The
only problem is, it's missing a little bit of
functionality that your regular Gmail app has. Otherwise, I would switch to the
offline app. It's pretty darn good and it's prettier.
Daniel: Gmail offline? You know, what I – I'm on
the Mac and I really loved Airmail because it interacts with Gmail really well.
It doesn't have the tabs, which I miss a little bit and I've gotten used to
those tabs, but I wish Google would just make us apps for desktop. But, you
know, I found Airmail and that takes care of my day to day stuff.
Jeff: Does it do the Priority Inbox all right?
Daniel: No, I haven't tried to use it. On a
typical day, I'll end the day with my Inbox having only 10 or 12 items in it.
Jeff: Oh, I hate you.
Daniel: I know.
Jeff: We hate you. (crosstalk)
Daniel: A few months ago, I had this great stretch
of two weeks where I would always hit Inbox 0, and in fact I was tweeting
pictures of like, if you're at Inbox 0 in the Gmail app, you get a little sun?
Gina: Yes, you get the sunshine.
Daniel: I was seeing that every day and it made me
feel so good. I tweeted it out and people were going,
“What is that?”
Gina: “What is that? I've never seen that
screen?”
Jeff: That's really obnoxious, Danny. That's
really obnoxious.
Gina: It's a little sunshine telling you to go
out and enjoy the day. You're done. It's awesome messaging. You're done, go out
and enjoy the day and it's like, “Yes!”
Daniel: If I were ever to make an email app, I
would probably make an email app that at the end of every week or two weeks, would literally take whatever's in your inbox and
just throw it into an archive folder. Because you're never going to get back to
that stuff but you sit there like almost a slave to it, like, “I know I'm going
to get to it,” or whatever. I'd just throw it all away because, you know, I did
this talk once on my things on email. Anything that's really important that you
don't get to is going to come back to you. Leaving it in your inbox isn't going
to help you in any way. So, archive all this stuff and all the weight is lifted
off your shoulders and you just focus on the other things. Then, I don't know. There's other things like it, but yes. Sorry. So I don't
need Priority Inbox so much.
Jason: That sounds like a beautiful place. It
sounds like a beautiful place, to have Inbox 0. As much as I try, as often as I
try, I can never get there, and even if I get there – you know, Gina, you were
saying, “Just get outside, enjoy your day, that's what the sun signifies.”
That's only for like the next two minutes and then suddenly it starts piling up
again.
Gina: That's true. It's Tetris.
Daniel: That's true. It does and then you hate the
person who messes it up.
Gina: It's just Tetris. The emails keep falling
in, it's just Tetris. That's how I think about it.
Jeff: I think about it as Sisyphus in reverse.
The mountain keeps falling on you.
Jason: Exactly. I actually like Inbox, but I
agree it needs to be on my apps account so I can use it here at work where it's
desperately needed. On my personal account, it's neat and I've removed my –
when I open my Chrome browser, it automatically opens Inbox instead of Gmail.
So that's nice, it forces me to kind of use it in mobile and on my phone and
everything. But I'm still not entirely, 100% sold.
Daniel: I never get why we have to be such a
second-class citizen when we have Apps accounts. I just don't get it. I want to
like, throttle somebody over at Google. The only reason I have a Google Apps
account is because I want my domain name. I want my own email and own domain
name, and back in the day that was the only way you could do it so that when
you emailed people, you didn't get back – it used to be if you sent it out, you
could send it out from any email address but if it wasn't actually through
Google Apps, you'd get this little warning like, “This person is pretending to
be something.” I think they fixed that, but there's this middle ground, I feel
like, where they could take regular Gmail accounts, let you use your own domain
name and have a few more advantages where I could have the things I want
without having to be this Apps administrative person and all these – oh. It
just makes me want to cry.
Jeff: Here's my guess. They've fixed it for two
years. They're dog fooding it along since all through Google and they keep it from us just so they can
watch the show and laugh at us every week.
Jason: Occasionally, tweet pictures of it.
Jeff: Come on.
Gina: In the secret evil building on campus.
Daniel: They just dedicate it to you, Jeff.
Jason: The Jarvis Room. Let's give them a break.
If you are watching, over there at Google, you can go get yourself a drink but
leave the audio up, because you're going to want to hear this. We're going to
take a break and thank our final sponsor of today's episode. That would be
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and we thank Prosper for their continued support of This Week in Google and the TWiT network.
All right. I believe this is the time where we dive
into tips and stuff.
Gina: I have one quick story I wanted to do real
quick if you don't mind me interrupting.
Jason: Yes, not at all.
Gina: Just because we talked about this on an
earlier episode. We've done a couple episodes talking about online harassment,
specifically on Twitter and one of the points that Jeff always made, which I
always thought was such a good one. On Twitter, to report harassment, only the
person being harassed could make the report, not people observing it. Which doesn't make any sense, because in the real world, if you're
at the playground and see someone bullying someone else, you can step in and
help out. Twitter made a bunch of changes to their abuse reporting this
week, or they announced them and I believe they are rolling out now. But one of
the changes that they made is that if you observe someone harassing someone
else, you can report that tweet as a bystander/observer. So I'm slightly
optimistic, feeling slightly optimistic about that. But my conclusion is,
clearly Twitter is watching This Week in Google, so hi, Twitter. Good job and
keep working on it.
Jeff: I talked to CBC about this today and
quoted you, quoted you often, trying to talk about the difficulties they have.
But it's almost as if, I don't want to do a conspiracy theory. Twitter made it
incredibly easy to report spam, one click, boom, done.
I do it all the time because it helps me and helps them. But it's incredibly
difficult to report harassment, impostors, trolls and other things. You had to
go through so much effort you just didn't bother. It's like they didn't want to
know. And then, it got to the point and I think the thing you've emphasized so
much on the show, is that you're right. It's also about us all helping each
other by being able to report these people and get somewhere with that. Yes, I
hope that they were listening to you and they should get smarter about this. I
think after the beheading videos and the naked celebrity photos, Twitter is no
longer a 100% open network. Now it's got to decide where the line is, but it's
got to decide that with our help. They were not getting our help before. They
were not being helpful before. It was far too difficult.
There was one horrible – I'm going to get
in trouble right now. But there was one horrible TWiT troll who just keeps on resurfacing and resurfacing and I tried to do all of
Twitter the favor of -
Gina: Reporting them.
Jason: Oh.
Gina: Oh, we just lost Jeff.
Jason: That favor that
blanked out the video, what unfortunate timing for the video to go away. Maybe
when we get him back, he can finish that thought. But just to give you a sense
of the rest of the stuff that Twitter is doing here, fewer steps to report
abuse. So they're going to make it easier, with fewer steps. Like you said,
letting bystanders flag posts they see as abuse. A blocked users page, and blocking users from viewing a person's profile when they've been
blocked by that user. So I say, “I don't want that person to look at my profile
any more or my tweets,” you can do that and it's not just a matter of me not
seeing them any more. They can't see my stuff, so
powerful controls.
Gina: Better. Yes, getting better, for sure.
Jason: Definitely better and that's going to be
available over the course of the next few weeks. Man, I really want to hear
what Jeff had to say.
Gina: I think it was the troll who shall not be
named, maybe got him cut off.
Jason: The timing was just impeccable.
Gina: That was amazing. I was like, “Wow, no
good deed.”
Jason: We'll see what happens there. But all
right, thank you for bringing that up because I did definitely want to mention
that and I skimmed over it. Apologies on that.
Gina: Thanks for letting me interrupt. Let's
carry on.
Jason: Okay, so Gina, we might as well start off
with you. What's your tip?
Gina: Tip this week coming from Lifehacker, a pretty good site there. You can search for
your email receipts right from Google, this can help
you out with expense reports or holiday shopping. You go to the Google search
box and type in “my purchases.” You will see receipts in your results from your
Gmail. It's pretty good and you can also narrow the results, so you can say,
“Hey, just show me all my iTunes purchases,” or do “My purchases, iTunes or
Amazon,” for example. It will only show you receipts from that and now, of
course, you can search for receipts inside Gmail, as usual. But it's pretty
neat to see, I think it's pretty neat. Some people might think it's creepy. But
I think we're all getting used to the idea, now, that Google has our Gmail and
shows us some content from our Gmail in our regular search results. I think
this is kind of neat and kind of helpful. So, it's “my purchases” when you're
signed into Google and you'll see your receipts in the search results.
Jason: Excellent and right around this time of
year, that's super handy. I feel like my inbox is overcome by receipts,
purchases and everything right now. Another good app along those lines is
Slice, actually, which I'm reviewing this week for Android App Arena. Actually, later on today, 4:30 p.m. Pacific but yes. It's
very good. Anything you can do to kind of manage this influx of receipts,
particularly this time of year is super helpful. Danny, I'm trying to remember
if I even gave you the heads up on a tip. If I didn't, I completely apologize.
Is there anything you want to kind of talk about, a tool or tip, anything along
those lines?
Daniel: Sure, I can give something. It's the –
I've got my little Android snowman here. Isn't he cute?
Gina: Aw, nice.
Daniel: That's not the tip but that's the
introduction because it is that time of year again. We have the Santa Tracker
app from Google that went live two days ago where you can go over and basically
wait until Christmas Eve. Then you'll actually be able to go online and track
for Santa using Google's tool. Of course, we have the traditional and
longstanding NORAD Track Santa site that has also gone up. That went up
yesterday in partnership with Microsoft. So, you know, for those of you that
are just waiting to count down the days until the jolly Old Saint Nick comes,
you can check out both of those sites. They both have games you can play and
things you can do with the kids. Apparently, Google's even got a little
JavaScript course that kids can play with as well. That's sort of it for the
moment.
Jason: Excellent, yes, Santa Tracker is great.
Apparently, Santa has his location sharing turned to on, because we can follow
his every move.
Daniel: Yes.
Jason: Good on Santa. Thank you
for sharing, Santa. We don't have Jeff yet. We'll see if we can get him
back for his number of the week but I can give you a cool tool. So I don't know
if you knew this, but with Lollipop, one of the features that not a lot of
people have heard about and maybe it has limited use case, but I think it's
pretty neat. Lollipop enables you to record your video from your device
natively, without root. Before Lollipop, you had to do this with root access on
your device and it was kind of a roundabout sort of thing. Either that, or use
terminal and go to ADB and do a command and real geeky stuff, now it's
accessible to everybody. There's an app, a number of apps that are doing this.
Coach has his mirror app that does this. There's also one I was playing around
with earlier called AZ Screen Recorder, no root. You can just install it, it's
a free app. It has kind of overlay controls to allow you to record your screen.
It also picks up audio from your onboard microphone. So it's not recording the
audio internally, inside your device, because I think that's maybe a way to get
around the face that people could record video and audio from a movie or whatever, rent it
and do that. So maybe it's copyright protection in that regard. But it does
record audio from your mic, which could be actually pretty handy if you're
doing some sort of demo or whatever, a walkthrough on an app you've created if
you're a developer of an app. If you want to do a walkthrough and go step by
step through your app, this is one easy way to do it. It was super easy.
There's actually a video link, and Brian, I know you're hard at work but below
this link in the Doc, there's a link to a video I recorded of me playing the
new – what is it? Run, Sackboy, Run for the PlayStation
character. I recorded this just in the device for about a minute. You
can activate it to show the touch controls so that it overlays on the top and
it's just a neat feature that you didn't have access to before Lollipop. So, at least not without root.
Gina: That's very cool.
Jason: Yes, it's pretty awesome. The app that
recorded this is called AZ Screen Recorder, though there are a ton of apps that
do this sort of thing.
Jeff: Is there a mobile Twitch a-coming?
Jason: A mobile Twitch? I suppose so, though this
is less livestreaming and more recording, then posting later. Who knows, maybe
that'll happen eventually.
Jeff: I just made somebody a fortune, big
business.
Jason: Yes, exactly.
Jeff: I'll never understand it, but it's a big
business.
Jason: Believe me, I hear you. It's good to have
you back, sir. Sorry, the video dropped at exactly the wrong time.
Jeff: No, the video was smart and shut me up. I
was going on too long, the Google algorithm said, “Shut
up, Jarvis. You've abused us about these accounts, we get it, you've gone over your limit of kvetch.”
Jason: The timing though, man. Okay, well you are
welcome to finish the story or you can do your number. It's up to you, Jeff.
Jeff: I'll do a number. So one
of the big things in the advertising world right now is called viewability. That's to say, is your ad actually seen? The thing you paid for? Google put out
a spreadsheet that's on the rundown, the shocking stat in it, full disclosure is that 56% of ads served by Google and Doubleclick are not seen.
Gina: Hm.
Jeff: So that's a huge issue in the media world
now because it's an instant deflator to all the money they used to make. The
truth is, the advertisers before kind of discounted on that basis, the same way
they did with print, where not everybody sees every ad. Yes, we know, you tell us they do but they don't. But now, of
course, you can count. Places like Chartbeat can tell you what's seen and
analytics on what's seen and 56% -
Jason: Oh.
Gina: Oh no.
Daniel: Google is shutting him down again.
Jason: This just never happens with Jeff's video. Of course. Well, 56-something smart, I'm assuming is
what he was going to continue with because Jeff is a smart guy. Okay, and Brian is working overtime right now, scrambling to
reconnect him.
Gina: We're really putting Brian to work here
today. Look, Brian's flailing. Oh, man.
Jason: Believe me, Brian, I've been there.
Brian: I know.
Jason: I've been there. All right, well let's – I
suppose we kind of have to wrap things up because we have hit the end of the
show. Hopefully Jeff gets on before we say goodbye, so we'll drag it out here a
little bit. So, Danny Sullivan, Search Engine Land, all around awesome guy,
just great having you on today. I really appreciate
having you join us and just being a part of TWiG today. Really
had a lot of fun.
Daniel: Thanks. You did a great job as a host.
Jason: Thank you, I appreciate that.
Daniel: Thanks for everything.
Jason: No problem. So tell people where they can
follow your work, what you've got working on, anything you'd like people to
know.
Daniel: You can follow the work that we do at
Search Engine Land, where we cover everything about search engines and search
marketing, and Marketing Land where we cover digital marketing in general. If
you want to follow me, I'm Danny Sullivan on Twitter. That's usually where I'm
socially active.
Jason: Right on. Thanks once again, Danny. Always
a pleasure and we'll talk to you soon. And Gina. I
know what you've been up to. A little bit of a ThinkUp thing, right?
Gina: Yes, it's December so we get to do our
best of 2014 insights and ThinkUp, which is a great social media insights -
Jeff: Great insights, Gina. They've been great
year-round insights. I've loved them.
Jason: Me too.
Gina: Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. Yes, you can
see. We do one on Thanksgiving too, you can see Jeff's
ThinkUp. JeffJarvis.ThinkUp.com and Danny's at DannySullivan.ThinkUp.com and
Jason is raygun01.ThinkUp.com. We're doing kind of like an advent calendar of
year-end insights. So there's going to be one new year-end best of 2014 insight
for every day in December. If you sign up, even right now, it will back fill the
ones you didn't get the last few days. So I think we're only three in at this
point and yes. So, Jeff tweeted 175 times on August 15th, you guys.
He's professorial even on Twitter, which I love.
Jeff: I must have been on some tear, I don't
want to remember.
Jason: I think you might have been. Rereading
that tweet, I think you might have been on a tear of some sort. We'll blur that
out.
Gina: Whoops, sorry. So that's at ThinkUp.com,
when I'm not doing TWiG and not working on ThinkUp, I cohost All About Android with Jason Howl and Brian on Tuesday nights.
We have a lot of fun, 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific. So if you like the show,
you'll like that one. So you should come by and watch that one, too.
Jason: Agreed. Gina, such a
pleasure doing TWiG with you, finally. This was a lot of fun.
Gina: Totally a lot of fun, you rocked it.
Jeff: You did a great job, Jason. Really great.
Jason: Thank you. I appreciate that. Jeff, it's
been my pleasure to do a show with you as well, even though it dropped a couple
of times. That's okay. So Geeks
Bearing Gifts. Tell us about it.
Jeff: I want to plug my kind of non-book book
and I just want to mention that as of today, I'm putting it up chapter by
chapter on Medium for free. So the introduction is up on Medium today, you can
get it on my blog BuzzMachine and link to there. You can still buy it and make
my bosses happy but I wanted to spread and brainwash the world, so the whole
thing will end up on Medium for free.
Jason: That's awesome.
Jeff: Medium did a great job. They have a
creative services department there. I had no idea. So they formatted
everything, they designed the structure. They're wonderful.
Jason: Medium is pretty darn cool, I got to say.
It's a great place for that kind of stuff too. Cool, so check it out and yes,
of course, Jeff is on Twitter @jeffjarvis, on Google+, all over the map. So
thank you, sir.
Jeff: Occasionally on TWiG when things don't go wrong with Chromebook.
Jason: It's okay, it
rarely happens.
Jeff: Good think Leo wasn't there for that. Leo,
hope you feel better. Hope you're happy, everything works out, but I'm glad you
weren't here for that.
Jason: Fair enough, and he'll never see it
because this show isn't recorded or anything.
Brian: Safe zone, safe zone.
Jason: Right, exactly. You can find me at
about.me/JasonHowl if you want to find my social doings and of course, All About Android. I do that with Gina Trapani and Ron Richards
on Tuesdays. Also do a show that's all about Android apps called Android App
Arena. Apparently, I really like the letter A. So all my shows start with A,
that's just how it goes. That is on Wednesday nights, I review four Android
apps each week and it's a lot of work but a lot of fun. I hope you enjoy it.
That's TWiT.tv/arena. But that is it for This Week in Google, man, what a great
show. Had a fun time being host of This Week in Google. I really hope that Leo continues to get better. He's not feeling so hot right
now, but we hope we see him later in the week and I'm sure that we will. So get
better and enjoy your binge watching of Netflix.
If you want to find everything about This
Week in Google, all you got to do is go to our show page. We publish everything
up there, our feeds for the podcast, our show notes links and of course, all of
our past episodes can be found at TwiT.tv/TWiG. That will take you right there,
and you can find all the notes there. Of course, we record This Week in Google
live every Wednesday from 1 to 3 p.m. Pacific, all you've got to do is head
over to live.TWiT.tv to watch the madness and be a part of the chat room and
get in on the show. But I think that's about it, everyone. Thank you so much
for joining us for This Week in Google and we'll see you next week with Leo
sitting in the chair again! Take care, you guys.