This Week in Google 749 Transcript
Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.
00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for twig this weekend. Google, jeff Jarvis is here, paris Martin is here. We're going to talk about, of course, our top story the New York Times suing Microsoft and open AI, saying they're stealing our content. But are they really? I'll make a case for keeping your hands off of AI no regulation at all and Neil Dash makes a case for the internet getting weird again in 2024 and why you might want to pay attention to how much you're making on those app based sites like Airbnb. You're now going to be reported to the IRS. It's all coming up next on This Week in Google.
00:35 - TWiT.tv
Podcasts you love, from people you trust. This is TWiT.
00:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is twig this week in Google, episode 749, recorded Wednesday, january 3rd 2024. A well regulated Jart team. This episode of this week in Google brought to you by Babel, the language learning app that actually works. Babel uses quick 10 minute lessons designed by over 150 language experts so you can start speaking a new language in as little as three weeks. Babel's built with science backed cognitive tools like spaced repetition and interactive lessons, and it's created to help you build real world conversations, so you can learn how to order food, ask for directions and speak to merchants. It's easy. Babel also teaches and I love this context traditions, the culture of the language that you're learning. I'm learning Spanish right now. I studied French earlier. It's just fantastic from self study app lessons to podcasts, even live classes, which is great for conversational speaking.
01:48
Babel has a wide range of learning experiences for learners of all ages, based on level and your time commitment. That's one of the things I love about Babel. It's just a few minutes a day, if I want. 15 hours with Babel is equal to one university semester. Plus, all of Babel's 14 language courses are backed by their 20 day money back guarantee. Now I'm a lifetime member of Babel because I love it so much, but we've got a special limited time deal. If you're new to Babel right now, get 55% off your Babel subscription. This is only for listeners. You have to go to Babelcom slash twig 55% off at Babelcom slash twig B A, b, b, e, lcom slash twig rules and restrictions apply. It's time for twig this week in Google, the show week where funny glasses and talk about Google. Hello, paris Martin. Oh, you see, I wore my specs. Yours are handmade.
02:43 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I don't know what you're talking about. These glasses are decidedly serious.
02:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Nothing funny about nothing funny about those. Jeff Jarvis is not wearing funny glasses either.
02:52 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
They didn't send me the memo. I'm so hurt. Yeah, he's just wearing your John.
02:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
John Lening glasses. No, Jeff is the Leonard town professor for journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. Emeritus, we have to keep playing that through August because we paid for the singers, so we'll keep playing that. And then Paris is, of course, at the information, where she does great work, still working on that big story that you can't tell us about.
03:24 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I am.
03:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, good.
03:25 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Watch the watch the internet guys.
03:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
When it breaks, you'll let us know, right. I will. You'll be the first to tell us. So I I wore. I don't. Normally I usually wear contacts, I wear glasses, but I usually wear contacts on the show. But I thought you know I got some fun glasses. I thought I can Paris, and I now can, can talk about our glasses, these, these glasses which really make me look like Elliot Gould and Ocean's 11, or maybe Larry bud Melman, I'm not sure which.
03:53 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You seem like you're going to do a heist.
03:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There, for those of you listening, big, thick black glasses, kind of like Michael Cain might wear so, but these are from a company called vinyl eyes. They're made out of old records.
04:09 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, that makes sense, because I was about to say they have some sort of reflection that you're that's the lights. That is like a record.
04:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's the grooves of the record as I move my face around.
04:20 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, there they are you need to put a needle on it to see what the little bits are.
04:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, you do, okay. So each model has a different name. This is called Fleetwood, so I'm figuring it's Fleetwood Mac Could be the rumors album could be Tusk, I don't know. It's true they also have an ACSE DC version which I figures old ACDC records. So isn't that a good idea they take? So I'm doing my part to keep the earth green. That's super by wearing an old Fleetwood Mac down on my face.
04:50 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's. No one would ever have use for that Fleetwood Mac vinyl. There's nowhere else go.
04:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We have two, not one, but two vinyl record stores in Petaluma alone. Oh you would. It's, oh, it's the hippest thing you know. Have a vibe, I don't know.
05:08 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Do either of you guys have record players?
05:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, do you? I think you would I do. Yeah, you're Brooklyn hipster.
05:14 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I mean that goes with that saying, I got my wife one for Christmas two years ago. She has all her albums downstairs. Yeah. I thought she's played. She has it.
05:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just I don't want to ever have to move albums again. That is such a pain.
05:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, I don't have that many. I have more of a concern of moving all of my books, but I just unnecessary.
05:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I stuffed everything my albums, my books and everything into an iPhone. When I move, I put it in my pocket and I'm gone.
05:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Nothing, no box. You put your 27 phones in your pocket.
05:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, there's a disadvantage. Yes, I'm having so many phones is not a good thing.
05:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
How many phone numbers do you have?
05:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, you know it's funny, we did. We did a little clean out during the holiday season. We went down to Verizon and phone numbers. Yeah, went down to Verizon.
06:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Verizon stock.
06:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Now, yeah said hey, I want to close out my account, Close it. I'm gonna have to work through all of them slowly. I still have an AT&T account with no AT&T sims or numbers or anything, but I have an account and I'm paying money. So there must be something going on, so that's the next. But honestly, they make it so hard to cancel. You actually have to go to the store and we got to the Verizon store. The guy says, Well, you can't do it here. I said, Well, where can we do it? He said you have to go online on the phone and call him. But that's the torture.
06:45
The manager was good. He said, but I will walk you through it, I will expedite. So he says Okay, dial this number. I dial it says Okay, immediately, press one. I said Okay. He says as soon as somebody starts talking, press one again. I said Okay, and it did. It went right through the tech support and it was much so. Credit to the manager at the Verizon store in Petaluma was very, very nice of him. He could have we explained it. Something went wrong the signals. Apparently they must have lost a tower in Petaluma because he used to have very strong 5g signals and now not. So what are you? How?
07:18 - Paris Martineau (Host)
many phone numbers did you have on your Verizon plan?
07:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Let me put it this way I wanted to get you to get an e-sim. My new car, I get an e-sim for it. I want to get a e-sim and said, no, you can't, you have too many numbers. I don't know what the limit is, but there is actually a limit, he thinks you have a huge family. You have too many numbers, you can't get another.
07:46 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You just walk out to a stretch limo full of children.
07:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is my family. What are you talking about? All right, did you so? You had a nice holiday? We were talking about Paris's New Year's Eve party. Actually, new Year's Eve Eve, new Year's Eve Eve, eve, eve party Very important yeah, new Year's.
08:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Eve. Eve, it's the day before the day before the new year and it's a great holiday to celebrate with your friends Nice, although I guess not for the next couple of years, because it's been good oh it's been the weekend Recently it's been the weekend, but starting next year.
08:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
New Year's Eve.
08:18 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Eve will fall on a workday, which is not as fun.
08:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Not really as fun. And Jeff, did you do anything for the holidays?
08:27 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So I was angry when the neighbors of fireworks woke me up at night on New Year's Eve. That's it, I'm an old guy.
08:37 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Did you go out and shake your fist at the lawn?
08:40 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No, that takes too much energy.
08:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Just thought bad thoughts.
08:45 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, exactly.
08:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What so the big story? We talked a little bit about it on Windows Weekly this week. The New York Times is suing Microsoft and OpenAI saying you bad people you are, your AI systems are widespread copying, copying our stories and that's copyright infringement. Tellingly, the folks at the Times have asked for a jury. They've demanded in the terms of the jury trial.
09:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Is it their right alone to do that? Yeah, I think that I also have. Hopefully I'd be in the defendant, I think would have more of a right to say.
09:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think that you well, I guess the judge will rule. A judge will rule, but I think that is typically the plaintiff who demands I don't know the early no, because, remember, donald Trump was complaining about not having a trial in the New York case and the judge pointed out that his attorneys had specifically not asked for a jury. So, yeah, I think either side probably can ask for it. Anyway, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. We should get Kathy Gellison.
10:02
Mike Masnick wrote about this and said the New York Times, it's just, he's classic. He said the New York Times really should think about what they're asking for because this could bite him on the Be honest. Yeah, the New York Times, he points out, very commonly will notice a story in another journal and then launch their own investigation From it without, sometimes without credit. And he says you know, if you can sue open AI for taking your material and training an AI on it, what's to stop those other journals from suing you? The New York Times lawsuit, he says, against open AI would open up the New York Times to all sorts of lawsuits Should it win. But I don't. To me, honestly, that isn't even the issue. I really think that, from my point of view and, by the way, I got in a little fight with Paul Therade who said you know, as representing creators, the New York Times fighting the good fight. Creators ought to sue AI for using their content.
11:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So I went on CBC to talk about this and my argument and Paris made fun of me saying well, you can't stay away from a camera for more than a week, Can you?
11:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Okay, it was very funny because it was a Wednesday, right when you record this show that you're like I'm going to be lying.
11:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I've got to have my airtime.
11:32 - Paris Martineau (Host)
What am I?
11:32 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
doing so. My contention is that the machine has a right to learn and that it doesn't record it. And I think we'll go into, I think, the details about some of the Times allegations about specific segments in a minute. But if the machine can't learn, if the machine can't do what we do, then it's a problem. And also on line 68, it is the heritage of our industry that we go back to, and I think I mentioned on the show before that newspapers had scissors. Editors, who was their job to cut up newspapers and put them in Copyright, did not cover newspapers at all at first, or magazines. Even when it did, it didn't cover news per se, it only covered kind of special things with authors, and so it is a bit I think Mike's right, it's and you're right. You know it's not the core issue, but I think it's disingenuous of the New York Times to act as if they don't do this every damn day.
12:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love this paragraph from Mike's article. In the end, though, the crux of this lawsuit is the same as all the others. I was talking about Sarah Silverman's lawsuit, George RR Martin's lawsuit against open AI. It's a false belief that reading something, whether by a human or a machine, somehow implicates copyright. This is false. If the courts or the legislature decide otherwise, it would upset pretty much all of the history of copyright and create some significant real world problems. Now Paul said that in the New York Times complaint, which runs 64 pages, that they provided ample examples of chat GPT, quoting them verbatim I thought they got them too, but Maznick has some very good points.
13:17 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
There's another one I put up online 66, which has a demonstration. One of the examples is a quote from a review of Guy Fieri's New York restaurant, and, as whoever it is who wrote this said, kevin A.
13:36
Brian, a fine theorem on Twitter that quote was was all over the Internet. It was quoted again and again and again and again. A, so it wasn't hard to get it from one place, and then B. What Maznick points out, I don't mean it's not impersonal. What Mike points out is that the way the queries were done, it led open AI down the path so that basically, the only response could have been the words that were next to the words that were next to the words next to words in that case.
14:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So that's what I did, without reading the entire play, that was my belief was that the New York Times had carefully crafted the prompts. Oh, yes, and my issue and what I told Paul is no one is you're not asserting, I hope, and as the times is, that somebody would read or query chat GPT in lieu of reading the New York Times that they would say, oh, I don't have to buy the times because I can get everything I want from chat GPT because they're just going to quote the time.
14:36 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, they are arguing that, in so far as there's a same argument, that's Google, was used against Google Exactly.
14:43
Well and Mike points out that that I don't represent them in the plate per se, but they they wind about about one wire cutter. Mike's example is I go to wire cutter and I ask what's the best blank? I get the answer that's. All I need is the brand and the model number from search. Yes, that's true, I don't go to the New York Times to read the whole thing and yes, the New York Times doesn't then get the affiliate money, but God didn't give it to them. Sorry, guys, you're, you're involved in an information ecosystem that you, the New York Times, take advantage of every single day, where information, once known, is free.
15:16
To use the hot news doctrine, the Associated Press, years ago, tried to have a hot news. I remember this, which was to say that there were two things that went on. One was that they said that, that that there was a period of time was never established, but about 12 hours or day, where, if you broke the story, when Paris has her big story out, it's hers for a day. Nobody can even mention it because it's Paris's right, and that the courts didn't go for that. They did it first they didn't go for that and then, when radio came along, newspapers tried to do the same thing and they told radio that they weren't allowed to discuss any story until 12 hours after it happened. That also went, by the way, and but the same kind of sacred language that's in the New York Times complaint, which Mike makes fun of at great length, is we're so special? Well, the New York Times were saving democracy. We put so much money into it.
16:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to hear what you have to say about it. Paris, I have other thoughts, though.
16:16 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, I'm curious about your thoughts. I think that the I think that the arguments that you guys have outlined are correct. I think that at first, you know, you see the argument the Times is presenting as, oh, people shouldn't be able to scrape our news and use it to train these systems. But I think, as we've just discussed, the actual issue at hand is a lot more complicated than that. And also the idea that anyone is going to be using chat, gpt to get a line by line read of a Guy Fieri review, and that is going to a democracy is 12 year old guy.
16:53 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yes which was talked about like crazy because it was so unfair to Fieri. Yeah, people screamed about it and quoted it at length all over. Yeah, sorry, let's go ahead.
17:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, I mean, I think that. I think what do you guys think is going to happen in the courts with this?
17:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here's my issue. First of all, I think it's telling that the New York Times demanded jury truck because they know a judge will, as judges already have, throw this out on the face of it. It's fair use the judges. Judges have already ruled again and again that AI has the right to scrape the internet and generate its large language models from that content that's publicly available and it's not a violation of copyright. They've. I think that that's going to always be the case. With a judge, jury might be different and I think it's one of the reasons this bleeding is so emotional is they're playing to a perspective jury saying oh, you know, you don't want the New York Times to fail, do you? But my? Here's my big thing, and now that I am an AI accelerationist, my big thing is. So I think Paul Dorot said, and I think I agree, that really this is a negotiation ploys that usually yes the Times just wants to sue him so that open AI will open.
18:10
You know, give him some money. And unfortunately, both Google and open AI have already done this with other journals and, as a result, have created this slippery slope. I don't think they should ever do this Because I think really this is the worst kind of regulatory capture. If, yes, yes, yes, the future of AI, really in my opinion and we have a Yanlacoon article we can talk about in wired and interview and wire but I agree with him where he says, really the real future, the future you want with AI, is open.
18:44
That's what open AI was supposed to be. You want open source AI. You want everybody to be able to develop with it, use it, create stuff with it. You don't want the big tech companies to be the gatekeepers. You don't want Microsoft, google, amazon, apple, anybody to own AI. You don't want them to be the gatekeepers. You want AI to be everywhere and I truly believe that. I think that's really important. So, no matter what the upshot of this case is, if the New York Times wins, if open AI ends up paying them, it means that it makes it harder for the open source AI to build and succeed, so it's going to have a bad outcome. The only possible good outcome is if the jury and I don't think so. But if the jury says, no, this is fair, use, go away New York Times, then that would open it up for everybody.
19:36 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Do you think, though, that companies like open AI should be able to use anyone's material?
19:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
for anything. If it's publicly on the internet, they can learn from it, they can train from it, not quote it, not steal it, not quote it. And this is the thing.
19:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
If it's behind the paywall and it's not metered, you know, should they be able to scrape that?
19:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that, actually that's an interesting one If open AI pays for one subscription in the New York Times and then scrapes all the content.
20:04 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Right, exactly, that's an interesting question so I had a conversation. If I could add to this, I had a conversation this week with Rich Screnta, who started Topics years ago and I didn't know it. Rich is now the executive director of the Common Crawl Foundation. Which Mike mentions in this, by the way.
20:21
Mike mentions in this and what Mike also says in his story is that the New York Times I just find this, there's a larger issue for the ethics and morals of journalism in society here the New York Times, mike says, has demanded that Common Crawl take off all of the content that it got from the New York Times. Now, open AI and company have done a you know a robotstxt for this case, which is fine, but the New York Times is talking respectively in the past to take it off.
20:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What is? What is Common Crawl? Is it like the? Is it like archiveorg? Is it like the Internet?
20:57 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
archive. It's different to this extent. All it does is it scrapes huge amounts of data from the open web open, open, open web. Mainly it was intended for academics so that there was a source of study which is invaluable and it's open source and it's free and it's gigantic. He told me how long it would take to download it and it's, like you know, forever. Huge, huge thing, whereas Internet Archive staves the actual pages and the images and all that. This is text only. It was for the purposes of academic research, as a foundation.
21:33
Well, so along come LLMs and hello, gloria Ski. Look at that. What a great resource, right? So they're using it and they're all happy to use it. But now you have all these organizations like Reddit, as very publicly said. Well, we don't want anybody to scrape us because we think there's a gold, a pot of gold, there. And the problem in the case of Reddit is well, you didn't make the stuff Reddit, your users did, and so everybody thinks that there's some pot of gold here and they all own something. And I think that we've got to have a conversation in journalism and media about our obligation to the public information ecosystem If everything ends up behind the paywall, which is their right to do. That's fine. If everything remains unscrapable or you're doomed in a court case, then the only thing that's left out there for people and machines to learn from without going bankrupt, and for open source efforts and for small journalists and so on, is crap and propaganda and lies.
22:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, how are those original creators of the news content supposed to survive in a media ecosystem where their work has to be essentially fair use and publicly available for free?
22:44 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No, they can put it behind the paywall it just has to also be accessible by opening eye.
22:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, no, no, in fact, I would say, the good compromise here is if it is behind a paywall, open AI, I can't get it. It should only be publicly accessible material. For instance, your articles are behind the paywall and the information. They shouldn't be able to scrape the information.
23:05 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
However, I do think opening eye it's different from book three. Book three did not obviously buy every book.
23:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Many of those are pirated, and that's what Sarah Silverman's at all's objection was. Well, you're reading our books by pirating them.
23:21 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
But in this case you really can subscribe to the New York Times. The New York Times can put, in terms of use that would be a solution.
23:30
Yeah, paris. The bigger question is that the business model of news is badly broken and I think that when we see ourselves in a position where we think all of our value is resident in this thing we call content, we're screwed, because content is a commodity, because machines can now make it Only in content. Any content is special is not where the value is the information. What's special is that you do reporting, others don't do, and people who find value in that in their jobs in many cases, and me in my podcast choose to subscribe for a lot of money. I was glad there was a sale on it. I got it cheaper. Thank you very much, jessica, but so, and if you're really special and if you're really good, you can do that.
24:15
So much of journalism. Look at the Guy Fieri story. So much of journalism is about us copying each other to get our own pages and our own page views and our own likes and our own clicks and our own and pennies and the. The amount of unique, original journalism that occurs, like the, the information, is a lot rarer than we admit. So we're trying to support a whole infrastructure of copying each other to get our own SEO and and clicks. So I think we've got to have an honest audit of where the real value is in journalism and where it isn't. I almost feel like a lot of the New York Times. I love the New York Times, I pay for the New York Times. I criticize the New York Times because it's the best and I want it to be better. But a lot of the New York Times has nothing to do with news, has nothing to do with improving the democracy. It's fluff to attract attention, which is an old business model that's gone away.
25:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sorry. I also think that there is a society, just as and we've talked about this before just as in the early days of the Internet we were, we didn't tax it, we were reluctant to put a lot of government regulation on it because we didn't know where it was going. We wanted it to grow and that worked out. Admittedly, there have been problems, but we know what those are, but I think that was the right choice. I think we need to do the same thing with AI, that I really believe that AI has a lot of potential, but we don't know exactly what it's going to be, and I think that it would be problematic if it's old media trying to hold back new media, and I think that would be problematic. And it's in a city difference.
25:52 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You see any difference in using and learning from materials to just teach the machine to speak as a skill versus versus. Versus giving back answers from current content that are reliable because their current content. Can you see what they're kind of do?
26:19 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I see a difference there, but I think that ultimately, the hesitation I have around this generally comes from the fact that we're ultimately talking about for-profit companies that are building models to then sell use of that model to people, and I think that there should be a robust public debate and, I guess, legal debate around whether or not those companies can benefit from other people's work.
26:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think, a good example is artists. I love that idea because and that's, by the way, why OpenAI originally wasn't on-profit, it wasn't tenable. But if you wrote an exemption for open source AI work and said, but if you're going to charge for it, well then you've got a license, I'm okay with that. In fact, I think that's the best possibility, because I don't want Microsoft and Google and the others to dominate AI. I think that would be a horrible mistake.
27:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So let me ask you a related question. So the information report I thought it was the information, oh, I guess it wasn't, but somebody reported, I think I thought it was the information that OpenAI's annual revenue report oh, is the information.
27:36 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You're talking about another story that actually aggregated our work, which is the very phenomenon we're talking about. Well, I put it in the wrong link.
27:42 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Right there it is.
27:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Exclusive, by the way. Openai's annualized revenue. Exclusive OpenAI's annualized revenue tops $1.6 billion. And then the rest of the headline is as customers shrug off CEO drama. That's a great story. Maria Heeter, Amira Fradi and Stephanie Pallazolo wrote that, so your colleagues-. So that went up at what time, leo, that went up 7 am on New Year's Eve Eve.
28:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Right. So on New Year's Day, at minus 3 is 11 am, a silicon angle put up the story, which is the one I actually put in the rundown, saying the information reported yeah Well, we do that too, though I gotta point out I mean, that's this whole show.
28:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
basically it's this whole show I because of that. I'm cognizant of that. I always you notice. I just read their names and I quoted it. Yeah, we try to credit. I try to give credit back. But honestly, that's another reason I have some concern about this lawsuit, because we don't do any reporting. I don't do any reporting, you guys do, certainly you do Paris, paris doesn't.
28:53 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I don't know what you do, jeff, but I don't do any I sit here and pray Jeff's out there. I do zero reporting.
28:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The entire extent of my work is to read all this stuff, digest it and editorialize on the talk about it. You are AI, so I think I'm in the same boat as OpenAI you are Well.
29:14 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Here's my question, though who's paying OpenAI $1.6 billion? I?
29:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
am. I give them $20 bucks a month, but jeez at $20 bucks a month.
29:24 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
How many people are doing this? That's a lot. Yeah, it's not given honest answers. What is it? How are they getting that much revenue?
29:33 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I don't get it. I mean, they're getting it from, I guess, I would assume. Obviously, this is not a reporting base, but I would assume that actual users like Leo are probably a small percentage of that, yes, and corporate clients are a large percentage. What are they getting?
29:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, I can tell you one thing that I get. That is worth it that, actually because, by the way, microsoft has put chat GBT-4 out for free on iPhone and Android. You can get the app Bing Chat app and do everything, but what I like and what I use and what is worth $20 a month for me is the expert systems I've created as GPTs. This is, by the way I think, in the long run, this is what's going to happen. Is you know? You had this App Store revolution with Apple's iPhone. I think you're about to have an app revolution with AI, because these all have open APIs. I think that's where the majority of money, by the way, comes from is licensing the API, and you so. I have a couple of really useful expert systems, and this was more just for me to learn some content that you have uploaded open.
30:40
Ai didn't provide it, you provide it, so this is how this works and I'll show you in the configuration is both. So without an LLM, there's nothing here to do, right? Right, I'll go into my common Lisper, which is the name of this little expert system I created. Without the LLM I could upload, as I have all this stuff, but they wouldn't be able to put it together into a expert. So there's there's both the corpus of data, but, but it's on top of a large model, that is, that is generated by reading the New York Times and the information and whatever else it can to create an LLM. But what I've told the LLM is don't hallucinate, only give me answers that come from. I now have 10, 11 books in here, these and one of the.
31:31
I'm doing this with common Lisp and one of the advantages doing it with common Lisp is it's so old that there's a lot of public domain PDFs of classic books by Paul Graham and Peter Norvig. The entire common Lisp spec is available as a PDF online a number of great books. So I just put all those things I already have as PDFs. I just put them all into this GPT and it's really been useful. I mean, it's incredible. I can ask it a question that I would normally go and search the web, for I would search you know common Lisp for loop and then have to sift through the Google results. Now I can actually ask it to explain it to me here. I'll show you, explain loops. Now it knows it's common Lisp, so I don't even have to say in common Lisp, it knows that and so it's going to give me some sample code. It's going to describe this. This is like having a teacher and it's all expert information that comes directly from these books.
32:33
There's no whole solution Did you buy all those books, some of our public domain Peter Norvig's book is public domain. Some I bought, yeah, but all of them are in the public domain at this point. Or I mean, look at this, is there anything that?
32:45 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
stops you from offering this to others.
32:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, yes, interestingly, lately I this is a change in chat GPT public actions required valid privacy policy URLs. So I have to create a pain I don't know, but I have to create a. I stopped. I make it only me now because it's so, it's only for me. But in theory you could, if you wanted to have a little business, create GP expert system. Gp, let's say. Let's say I am a BMW repair shop and I have every manual for every BMW ever made. If I can get that to an expert system, that's a huge value. Now here, this is the question. This is why the New York Times is worried. Can I then sell that expert system? That's what I'm asking, right?
33:32 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah.
33:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know.
33:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
What do you think? The answer is Leo.
33:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, I'll get? I don't know. The answer is I have an Emacs expert which I don't distribute Because one of the corpus one of the things in the corpus here is a is a book by a great guy named Mickey Peterson that I bought. I have a PDF of. I was able to upload it mastering Emacs but it's not public domain. He sells it. So I I would feel funny about selling this expert system. I don't have a problem with using it for myself, by the way. This is why open source is also so important is I should be able to do this all on my own system, with my own LLM, with my own database of my own corpus of knowledge. Not sell it, but just for myself. That's where you're going to get some really interesting things happening.
34:30
Yeah, somebody's saying in our Discord take all of Steve Gibson's notes and put them into an expert system. In fact, I started doing that. I put all the transcripts of Steve's shows, all his show notes, into an expert system. Now you have an expert, steve Gibson. Now here's a really interesting question. Those are all. That's all content Steve has made as part of our podcast. He's, you know, published it publicly. It's every. It's like everything Steve ever said or knows Does Steve have rights to that LLM, to that GPT?
35:04 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
What's the difference between is it's that All right? So let's just play with it for a second so I could go to the web and I can read all that stuff laboriously myself, which would take a very long time. I could hire someone, a librarian, to go do that for me.
35:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, and to some degree a search engine. A search engine also does that A search engine right.
35:22 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Exactly what I'm saying.
35:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right, right, I can search for a word and find it If I search through all of the transcripts, which people do all the time for a term. I want to know more about ransomware and get all of those references. How.
35:34 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So, a smarter search engine.
35:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's not so different from a chat, gpt saying oh, summarizing it in a paragraph, that's the only real difference, the same content, I don't know. I mean, I don't know.
35:45 - Paris Martineau (Host)
This is a very interesting kind of time your analogy between this and the accelerationist potential of the internet has ever really clicked for me, so I'll give you that Say more. Say more, I mean, I think, just in the sense that what you're describing, it is a tool in that can make existing processes happen at a much faster rate. More than that.
36:12
Technology already to you know like go through all of Steve's podcast episodes, read the notes of what he said and get up to date on certain topics already exists. It would be laborious, but putting all of that into a GPT, having it summarize it for me, isn't inherently all that different. And here's the real point.
36:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a society, a societal good.
36:39
Yes, if we can take the knowledge of the world and make it available this is Google's mission statement right To put the information of the world at your fingertips. If we could do it even better, in such a way that it's useful, so that you can query a GPT about security and get good responses from it. Yes, I understand the New York Times or Steve Gibson or the information of Paris Martino might say but wait, that's all that's my knowledge. But from a societal point of view, that's a huge societal benefit. And this is the point of copyright, in a nutshell is to give both sides a benefit, to give the creator the right to make money off of it patent, same thing but ultimately to make it into the public domain at some point and right now it's life plus 70, which is nuts but ultimately make it into the public domain so that we can all benefit from it. And I think that that's the thing I really want to focus on, even as a creator, by the way. And failure is part of that. Yes, failure is a part of that.
37:44 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Because once I've learned it, I can. That is my knowledge. You can't take it away from me. You can't play. You know the men in black pen against my head. But here's another thing right, when I met Stephen Johnson originally about notebook LM what we speculated about is why shouldn't the New York Times be offering that as a service on their own?
38:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They should make a New York Times GPT, exactly.
38:06 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
A publisher of a book should make it. This is something you know. I said in what would Google? Do we have to update the book? And then, in Gutenberg parenthesis I recanted that and said, no, let the book be alone, but I'll go bad again. A book publisher should be able to put up a book in such a way that you can query it. There you go and you can ask it questions. But they don't do that Because they instead say no, no, this is ours. You have to buy in the format we give it to you and use it that way.
38:32 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's gonna be no way to protect against this A little bit of a devil's advocate here there was a good question in the chat from Andrew saying the thing is, if we, you know, are out there building all of our Steve GPTs, like someday, who will be Steve? Oh, somebody always says to me I do X and Y and Z and everything for us. Are we not making any experts in these key fields anymore?
38:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're gonna. There's always going to be a Paris Mart known as Steve Gibson. You're going to still have that because you'll still be able to get value out of what you do, because you're creating the original content. People will still subscribe to the information. Well, paris is worried.
39:09 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, I understand, and maybe I should be too, but I understand it's a little bit of, I think we're less, we're less vulnerable in this class of commentary, like commentary as a class of journalism, which is very important and balanced. What we're doing right here is more of what should be concerned, you know? I mean who is going to?
39:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
yeah, we're, we're the ones to be replaced. Right, you have to create. Yes, you know what it's. It would be trivial, frankly, and it will happen in a couple of years, to do this show without any of us.
39:43 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
But it won't have our jokes about your weird glasses.
39:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That'd be easier to play.
39:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How do you keep your glasses from sliding down your nose?
39:54 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They slide down my face all the time and it annoys me the first show, paris.
39:58 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I thought that was an affectation, I thought this was the look, I thought that was the Paris.
40:05 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I really can't. I need to get tightened.
40:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a problem? No, I got him tight. I think it's just the nature. Partly is I don't have a lump in my nose. You see, I have a perfect, perfect, perfect profile, poor you. So there's no, there's nothing to hold it up, you see. You see what I'm saying.
40:18 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You should get one of those lumps installed.
40:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, lump installed but. But when I wear glasses, like you, jeff, with the pads right, the press in on the nose. That hurts. Well but it keeps it from sliding down.
40:30 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It keeps it. Yeah Well, I also like. These are incredibly, incredibly light. These are titanium. Oh, mine are. Mine are light.
40:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
My other ones are light too, and these because I don't know because they are heavy, I guess yeah.
40:41 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So in the Gutenberg parenthesis pardon me, I've got to get a you know plug in once an hour. I think that's twice. Now I, I, I quote the fight between Kevin Kelly and John Updike in 2006. So Kevin Kelly said just what you just said, leo. Oh, you're going to make it new ways, you're going to do new things, it's going to be open, it's going to be wonderful and every book is linkable and everything is out of that right. And and Updike went, just went crazy at book expo and he called that a pretty grisly scenario. He said books traditionally have edges and the electronic anthill where are the edges? So, booksellers, he said, defend your lonely forts. And he said I don't want to perform for my lunch, I want to write for my lunch.
41:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And I get that. I get it too. But this is why we don't ask people from the previous generation what they think of the next big thing, because they never really understand what it's going to be, and they have, and their natural aversion to it, because it's a change is going to get in the way of it actually happening. And you know what there may be disruptions. There almost certainly will be. The internet costs, huge disruptions in businesses, including the New York Times business, and they're desperately scrambling to find a way to survive. Many newspapers have gone out of business, but I wouldn't want to stop progress to save newspapers anymore than I wanted to stop TV to save radio. It's just or or. Stop cars to save buggy whips.
42:12 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
New York Times went out for radio exactly the same way. Yes, they're going against open AI now.
42:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, Not all progress is good, but it is the nature of life and it and we have to move forward. We cannot freeze this in ASPIC. And so to ask John Updike, who I deeply respect, by the way, guess what? There's people still read his novels, they love his novels, they are. His novels have not gone away, still have edges, absolutely.
42:40
So the problem was that you know I understand his concern, but he was from another generation. He didn't know any more than I did at the time what was going to happen, and so to ask him is to freeze progress in the in the form that somebody from an earlier generation thinks it should be frozen, and that's a clear mistake. And that's my exact point with open AI or AI in general, is we don't know, and so it would be. We see it with music. It would be wrong for us at any point in this to say oh no, no, no, you can't let that happen because we just don't know, open AI is the.
43:15 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
many have said this. It's the Napster of content, and Napster opened the door and, yes, all the law came out. What happened in the end is the is the album got decommissioned, de-orbited, right? Is that, is that what we use?
43:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
And that's the one.
43:31 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
But there are far more creators being able to be heard right now in far more hours than whatever the case.
43:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And I want to point out, peter Gabriel just released an album. That is an album that is in sequence, and the way he did it is he released a cut at the full moon of every month in the year 2023 in album order and on December 1st released the full album. He preserved the album. He found a way to do it. I mean and, by the way, I was really pissed because I was having a hard time buying the album I want to give him my $17 on iTunes and Apple doesn't want you to buy albums. They want you to subscribe forever to Apple Music, so they make it very difficult to find a way to buy them. But Jason Snell, who is a friend, the host of Mac Break Weekly and a fan of Peter Gabriel, said oh no, peter sells all his stuff on Bandcamp.
44:25 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, Bandcamp is where they're at.
44:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You go to Bandcamp and you could still buy an album. So here's a guy. He's 70 something. He's an earlier generation of music musician who believed in the form of albums and has preserved it. It doesn't. I think John Uptack didn't go away, Peter Gabriel didn't go away, but they should not be allowed to save his future.
44:46 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
There's a lot more John Uptacks and Peter Gabriel's album to be had who couldn't make it through the gauntlet before.
44:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's true too, I mean okay, I agree, but I will also say the current state of the music industry, which is streaming based, is not very hospitable for, hospitable from new artists who are trying to make a living Getting pennies from Spotify, among is not going to produce the next video.
45:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're right, I agree, but so go to Bandcamp and sell your album.
45:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I think companies still mess it up, and so you know in the book that I'm coming out next year, obviously we're not plugging yet I, you know, argue that what the mistake that I made was that I gave too much to companies, I gave too much to Twitter, I gave too much to Facebook, and this is the lesson Leo taught me and beat it in my head when it came to Master Don is we've got to honor the open structures of the internet and it's not always going to be the easiest way or the obvious way or maybe even the most profitable way, but there but there is also to be considered the interests of society, and I think it is in society's interest that we allow this stuff to develop.
45:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We keep an eye on it. You know there will be bad things coming out of AI. We know that, but there could be so many good things. It's very much like the internet there's so many good things possible as well.
46:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
So I really want to smash cut of all of your different takes. I know last year. You know, I think that would be pretty good. In the words you could get AI on that.
46:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
In the words of Henry Davis. That's true Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, Am I wrong? Actually was Ralph Waldo Emerson, but other than that, you hallucinated, yeah, humans hallucinate a lot more than machines. Hobgoblin. Yeah, that's a good word, isn't it?
46:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's really good. I think more hobgoblin references.
46:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That was fun. That was really fun. It's good discussion, it's a. I think it's a really exciting area and it's one of the reasons.
47:00
As I've said many times, we have a job to do, and so this is why I don't I'm not worried about AI, because you and I and have a job to do. Paris, we and Jeff, I guess, have a job until August. No, no, we have a job to do, which is to understand this and explain it and also advocate. I mean, that's why I'm not a pure journalist. We advocate, we do our best and I love I've done this my whole career since the early 90s, because I love technology, but I also feel very strongly that we have that there are certain paths we should avoid. Sir Beth, I've always been a big believer in open versus proprietary and I've always flogged that. Now, that's my point of view. Maybe, maybe people don't agree with me, that's, there's plenty of them, but that's part of our job and I think we'll have a job to do and AI cannot advocate, and AI doesn't really can only give you information, and then it's not well and often not well.
48:01
But but then me too, emerson Thoreau, it's all you know, the same we're Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen, it all is the same. Yeah, that's right, michael Cohen used Bard he did it too To write his pleading.
48:16 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He's a doofus. He's a doofus. But I also could see how, in Bard, Bard now appears right next to the Google search bar and it takes the place of the old Wikipedia information up there. And so you ask a question in the search and there's information right there in Bard. And if you don't, if you're not paying attention to the news which he doesn't accept about himself, I could see the confusion. He's not his lawyer is another case.
48:40 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He's not a guy. The context is, uh, michael Cohen says that he unwittingly passed along to his attorney bogus, artificial intelligence generated legal case citations that he got online before they were submitted to a judge, which is pretty funny, honestly it is. It is.
48:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay.
49:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's crazy, though, that they ended up cited as part of written arguments by his attorney.
49:05 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That is, the attorney didn't do his job. And then the attorney. There was 20 rails in the bus.
49:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, if you're the attorney for Michael Cohen, you've got a lot of things in your plate.
49:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're busy guy, honestly. I mean, I don't know enough about the job that these people do, but I bet you there is some time pressure and you're working really hard to pull these things together and, um, and maybe you know you should have checked but Michael doesn't have access to Westlaw anymore because he's not a lawyer. Oh, that's right, he isn't a lawyer, is he? He's been disbarred, all right, right, right. Well, we'll talk about Bard, actually, when we come back. This is this week in Google, the show where we cover uh is a Google product. Here we are.
49:45 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We're getting into Google before the ad break. That's huge how?
49:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
about that. We're going to talk about Bard. It's it's getting close, so if you want to use it in your trial, stay tuned. But first a word from our sponsor. I love these guys collide. And why do I love collide? Cause they love and users.
50:07
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51:56
In Google you want to see the bar. Bart is inching towards launch. I think that's an interesting choice of words from nine to five. Google Inching towards, apparently where it's imminent right. This is from APK Insight, where they take applications, files, the APKs, and decompile them and analyze them. Inside they found a little pop-up. That's an assistant with Bard tab right there in the Google app. This is designed to fully replace the existing Google Assistant unsupported Android devices. So for right now, you've got your pixel and you go. Hey, you know who it's going to be. Bard's going to be in there in some way, the company is also planning to prominently place the Assistant with Bard experience on the Discover page of the Google search app. Here is from nine to five, google and APK Insight. The video what appears to be ways to quickly switch between performing a normal Google search and getting help from AI. See, michael Cohen's going to love this.
53:09 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Here's a huge for him.
53:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is going to be huge. So there's the Assistant. Hi, I'm Assistant with Bard. Oh, like that. Or here's like you're in. What would you like to do today? You type or you talk Hello there. Can you tell me what's Santa? I'm sorry. What's on the image, please? I don't know where Santa came in. It said Santa.
53:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It did say Santa.
53:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, and then it's looking at the screen and this is Bard. Apk Insight says for now it's not clear whether this is intended to be a permanent fixture of Discover tab or maybe it's just a one-time only, you know little ad for checking out Assistant with Bard. Then there's a guy named Dylan Roussell who managed to enable the actual pop-up window. It's hysterical. They just they dig and they dig and shows us how that's going to look to use Bard to submit questions. So we're getting closer and closer. I have to say I pay 20 bucks, as I mentioned, a month to have chat GPT on my phone and on a new iPhone I'm able to use their action button to launch it and talk to chat GPT and have it respond back. I showed you that a few weeks ago. Increasingly now we're getting. I think it's really interesting that Google looks like it might want to add Bard to the regular Google Assistant.
54:38 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So do you also pay for an Anthropics to do the work of the company? I think we must right.
54:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We use Anthropics. Ai Claude, which, by the way, by Informant deep within the industry said are those guys at Anthropic? They're jerks. He said oh, you're a long walk guy, my long walk guy.
54:57 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He said you're a long walk with Sam Altman.
55:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah. He said those are the guys who are so concerned about safety that they left Google because they were so worried about safety. He says so they've created Anthropics, created this safe AI. He was very dismissive of it, but I have to say it's been very useful for us.
55:19 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
But here's my question yeah, I'm sure we pay for it. Anthony, do we?
55:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
pay for that? Yeah, we must. What do you use it for? We use it to do show notes, Show notes. We also, I believe, we use it to chop up the show into little TikTok-like vertical videos which we then that's a different tool.
55:40 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
What tool is that? That's podium Podium. I'm sorry, podium is what we use for the transcripts and stuff like that.
55:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
These are all tools you pay for.
55:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All AI tools we pay for. But here's my question we use a lot of them.
55:54 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
We have blog posts out of Claude as well.
55:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Claude makes blog posts. Yeah, but he writes them at some point.
55:59 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
Well, we edit them as humans. But yeah, it'll take a show. It'll listen to the whole show, read the transcript of the show and then give us a summary.
56:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But Claude do it. No, I'll tell you, this is historically a huge problem for podcasts, because Google doesn't search the audio. They always said they were gone and they never really did, so there's no discoverability in a podcast. So we've always said what we really should do is a blog post for every episode, but I'm not going to do that. None of our hosts wanted to do that, that's just all you know. That's adding insult to injury.
56:34
So the AI's now take this show, they transcribe it and they generate an article from it, and then the producers look at it and clean it up. Where is that? Is that in the blog on Twitter? So there's actually a lot of stuff in here that we got to make this more discoverable. These are transcripts. There's the newsletter there Micah Sargent's holiday gift ideas. Micah probably wrote that the transcripts are created by podium. Oh, here you go. Look at this. Remember when we had Steven Johnson on the show? So we fed that show to an AI, to his AI. Different AI, no different AI too. Who do we use for this? Claude To Claude? Yeah, claude, claude wrote this. And then Anthony Nielsen, our AI guru, but it's sometimes a producer. Sometimes Anthony went through it, made sure it was legit. How much do we pay for this feature? Huh, this is Claude writing the blog post. We don't pay for that, claude just does it for free?
57:42 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's my question. That's free.
57:44 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Pretty soon, everything you've mentioned is going to be available for free, because they're all going to be competing and you're not going to be paying for it.
57:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The internet was like that too. Look, it's even got a quote.
57:52 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's going to be free for like three to five years.
57:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, and then we'll have to all pay for it $25 a month or probably like a hundred dollars a month yeah. And we'll be pissed. This is actually. This is pretty good. This is a summary of what Steven said. It's got a quote from Steven.
58:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And but, Anthony, you probably how much cleanup did you have to do on this, Anthony?
58:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's almost there. He just touches it up a little bit and make sure there's no lies. He takes out my names and my quotes.
58:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's what he does we want to take?
58:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
everything from Jeff. That's his instruction. And then we were going to use it for show notes. Right, with the emoji bullet points. Have we started doing that yet or no? Not emoji bullet points. I like the emoji bullet points. Netflix said it would break things. Oh, it would break things. Oh well, that's not good, so we don't use. But it does make the show notes here. It depends on the producer, okay, and then? And what do we use? What's the tool we do we pay for that feature? Okay, oh no, we just run that through. Claude. Claude is free and free, free, free. No no, no.
58:58
Well, you have a limited usage in it, like, okay, so if we use it more than a certain amount, we would have to pay for it. Oh, so you're paying for it $20 a month? Yeah, I'm paying $20 for chat, GPT, so so $20 bucks. And then podium is much more expensive. I'm sure that's art, does transcriptions and then. And then what is the? What is the thing we use to make the tiktoks? Opuspro and that we pay for.
59:30 - Anthony Nielsen (Other)
Yeah, and that's like it's, you know, for an episode. It's like you know, buy bucks and you get. It'll like generate you know 30 clips that you could kind of pull from and edit and it does a pretty.
59:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It also adds the text right.
59:46 - Anthony Nielsen (Other)
And it'll automatically. Like you know, do you all have the cut?
59:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's one of our shows. There's you, Paris. Hey, there's me. That's cool. Never noticed that. So, um, yeah, that is cool. There's Scott Galloway, I think. Yeah, yeah, there's young and profiting. This is great because, honestly, we don't have the manpower. You know my son Henry. He looks at our tiktoks as dad. Would you just fire whoever's doing that? I said we can't, it's a AI.
01:00:22
He said he said, dad, that's terrible. I said it's not terrible. It's what he said. I look, let me do it. I said no, cause I can't pay you what you would need to get paid to do this. But his contention and of course, he's been very successful on tiktok and insta with millions of followers but his contention is it's not really viral, creating really truly viral stuff.
01:00:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
So I will say I mean I'm not being on the platform at all like having a it's better than not being on the platform at all. But it's not probably going to get people to check out twit from tiktok. But nothing we would do would do that right.
01:00:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the problem, I think it would.
01:01:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I think there it's a really popular format on tiktok to kind of have cuts from podcasts by kind of going back and forth. Yes. And it does drive subscribers. I mean, that's how dropout that, like streaming service I've talked about before, has gotten. The vast majority of their subscribers of the last couple of years is from tiktok. But that would also require hiring someone.
01:01:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And that's not all Henry had to do is say well, how many views around that? 57?. How many? How many followers do you have? 556. How many likes do you have total? Yeah, 1700.
01:01:40 - Anthony Nielsen (Other)
So I mean we, like we recently just started, you don't have to defend it.
01:01:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You don't have to defend it. I mean he's a snob because? But I'll tell you what the real thing is. And he doesn't admit this, he knows it in his heart of hearts. The real audience is not humans, the real audience is the tiktok algorithm, because the way you actually get views on tiktok is by tiktok, surfacing it in the for you tab. So until you get the tiktok algorithm not a human, but the algorithm to notice you, it doesn't matter.
01:02:12
Yeah, but that's from human like we don't know how the tiktok algorithm works. I don't think it's just from human attention. I think tiktok's looking for certain kinds of content.
01:02:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I'm sending you guys an example on discord of a podcast that I can't speak to the quality of any of these videos. I just know that. I've seen this in my feed beforehand and it is kind of talking heads, people recording a podcast, but they do frame the shots in a way and their videos have 3.4 million followers.
01:02:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The basement yard.
01:02:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I have no idea what it's about, but I use Nealathon.
01:02:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So this looks kind of like what we do. Where it's a vertical, you've got, you know, the captions. The problem is we have to say something interesting, I think we say a lot of interesting things.
01:03:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I think you just gotta think of what's tiktokable.
01:03:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And there's. You have to really play to the algorithm. That may be that is ultimately in the people and there's a lot of competition which does take us to line 93. Wow, okay. Now this is the point, just a little behind the scenes here for everybody, where I have to decide before looking if it is worth completely stopping even just talking about and go to line 93, which could be Jeff Jarvis and a tiktok with a monkey, or we just don't know what knows oh wow, this is a tiktok.
01:03:45 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, it is relevant. It is relevant. But was it worth was it worth he's scolding me changing the entire thrust here we go, we're doing it.
01:03:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
When guys start to podcast for no reason, it is really over fellas we're the podcast police.
01:04:06 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
We're a task force that stops white guys from starting podcasts for no reason. Anything you say can it will be used against you. Subscribe to the page. All right, I got a real problem here in Los Angeles. These guys reuse mics, share mics, podcast in the morning, podcast at night. I'll have the time to realize the mice not even plugged in it's pretty good, okay.
01:04:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, thanks for derailing the entire conversation with somebody else's tiktok, okay.
01:04:37 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I did laugh. How many views did that tick tock have?
01:04:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
millions.
01:04:41 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I can see that it has 634,000 likes.
01:04:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's ridiculous. So this is why I don't honestly don't feel like we should try to compete on tiktok. Now, I thought we did a good job with your, your little galecom thing on tiktok. We did, you see that, what we did with that.
01:05:03 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I didn't, but I do follow you on tiktok, All right.
01:05:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here's. Here's, this is. This is from an episode of I'm having a watcher's pick of the week.
01:05:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
This week is one of my colleagues accidentally mistyped Gmail the other day.
01:05:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, so Henry would say it took too long. I flipped, I flipped up, I'm gone.
01:05:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I flipped and also we got to get rid of the little. On the bottom third of the tiktok is a subscribe to twit sort of banner thing.
01:05:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You can't click it. You can't click there's no, it's not clickable, it's just a thing.
01:05:37 - Paris Martineau (Host)
This is great for AI and I think, by the way, I was an example.
01:05:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I bet you anything that the tiktok algorithm sees that and goes nah, we're not going to put that on the for you page. Yeah, it's stuff like that. There's nothing to do with how many people saw it or whether they liked it or clicked it or said anything. Henry says it doesn't matter how many people like you. That is not part of the algorithm. And I think the algorithm does things like yeah, I don't like the way that's laid out.
01:06:03 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Probably not on gmailcom, but on galecom, and it should be illegal to make me listen to myself on this show.
01:06:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Isn't that painful? I hate it. I know what you mean it does have a different. I think this was a really good segment and a great thing for a tiktok. But, but of course it's not going to succeed on tiktok, because it's not, it's not, it's not going to grab you. You're going to, you're going to swipe.
01:06:29 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, I think it would probably require some of your son's fast editing to make it work. It needs knife work, we need the crackling sound of bacon. We need knife work and frying bacon, which takes time.
01:06:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, oh yeah. Look at this poor guy. I gotta tell you he's doing very well, but he works night morning till night making these stupid sandwiches. Nobody eats. I said, henry, how come you not be fat? He says I don't eat that stuff. I said, well, do you? So he's doing it in his mom's kitchen. Actually he's. He's moved back down to LA, but he was doing his mom. God, you give it to mom? He says no, no, she doesn't want that. In fact, jennifer said yeah, usually have to do Uber eats, I can't get into the kitchen. And then I said well, who do you give it to? You never give it to me. He said, yeah, friends, I don't understand, but anyway, that's neither here nor there. It's hard, let's put it this way. It's hard to go viral. It's not. There's no magic thing, but one of the tricks really at least Henry's trick is you gotta your audience is an audience of one that it's a machine, it's a TikTok algorithm, don't you think that's?
01:07:38 - Paris Martineau (Host)
true Speaking of. Yeah, I mean absolutely. Aren't you glad we did that podcast?
01:07:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
police segment. Jeff, that really forwarded the conversation. I thought it did Line 93. I think it did.
01:07:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Line 93 guys, Speaking of which I think we could talk about line 98, which we talked about a bit for the show.
01:07:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Now you've got, now you've got Paris doing it.
01:07:59 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Listen, I'm going to lean in this from the New York Post.
01:08:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You remember weeks ago.
01:08:03 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You may have heard of the TikTok tunnel girl, a spiritual cousin of the TikTok eel guy. She was a woman who was digging a series of tunnels underneath her Virginia home. She's been ordered to stop doing that because it's against the law.
01:08:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How long did she go and how far did she get digging these tunnels?
01:08:26 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Definitely longer than a year, because the video I played for you guys a couple of weeks ago was a one year recap of her tunnels and their cavernous. She had to get a mine car set up in there.
01:08:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Apparently pools of water there's this Is she an engineer?
01:08:41 - Paris Martineau (Host)
She is an engineer. She's a software engineer.
01:08:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that doesn't count, they don't teach you in your computer science program how to keep the roof of a tunnel from collapsing in on you. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Is that a true?
01:08:57 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's not actual Barack Obama. He didn't really say you are my Beyonce. Hero. Yeah, no, okay, no.
01:09:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, all right, that's somebody. It doesn't even look like Barack Obama, it just no it's someone on the internet lying about who they are. But for some reason the New York parts decided to include it.
01:09:19 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, so it was an unpermitted tunnel digging project in a suburban Washington DC home and it's now been slapped at the bunch of potential violations.
01:09:31 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
What I'm curious is did she go under neighbor's property she had? To have Otherwise it seems bigger than that.
01:09:37 - Paris Martineau (Host)
She was building, if I recall correctly a storm shelter, shelter.
01:09:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, all right, now we're, now we've moved on to something else.
01:09:48 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
At least you have to school Paris, like you're schooled with me. No, no, yeah, I wanted us.
01:09:52 - Paris Martineau (Host)
if one of us is going to get in trouble, both of us need to get yeah exactly Right.
01:09:57 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, we stick together, we kids.
01:10:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, she did post a video of her getting shut down by the police, which is great content, I'm sure.
01:10:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sorry, that is an exercise for the listener. Go to tick tock. What is her tick tock handle?
01:10:16 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, I have no idea. Okay, search tunnel girl, I'm sure.
01:10:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, the one plus buds three. No, I don't want to do a story about that.
01:10:28 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No, you put this on. Those are the folks You're playing at home.
01:10:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This was the first thing on the rundown Number one he's going after us for going down the line, but you're making the number one thing on Leo's pinboard is one plus buds three.
01:10:46 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
reportedly get price cut oh wow, that'll be a real conversation starter In any particular order.
01:10:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
In fact, they are in chronological order. So, as you can see, that story was bookmarked yesterday, so it's old too. Yeah, january 2nd, you bust us, we bust you. Well, I'm just saying I haven't put this in any order. You're assuming that it's like the first line is the most important. No, that's not true. In fact, I didn't lead with this, did I led with line? With 65 and our part of the thing.
01:11:27
Yeah, yeah that should have been in there too. No, it is. It's actually line 51 as well in my area, but it was in the AI area. Anyway, oh, that's right, it was a little too much inside baseball, and so what do you have to say about those one plus buds, Leo?
01:11:43 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Does their price actually end up getting cut?
01:11:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Deleting now.
01:11:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
The first time we've shamed Leo to removing a row of the.
01:11:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Google sheet. This is now a mutual shaming society. We're all shaming. Howard Stern show. Apps will be reporting your earnings to tax authorities starting this week. How about that one If you make money with an Airbnb or Etsy or eBay?
01:12:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'm surprised they haven't been. I am too. Don't you have to give them what do you call it? A nine, 1099 or something? Well, no, that's what they give you. What do you have to give them?
01:12:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
A, w, nine, right, yeah, I'm surprised you don't have to pay income tax on it. In fact, the nine to five max says whether or not you have to pay tax on this income depends on an often complex set of rules which vary by country, but they this is a global agreement, so it's not just in the US. The 38 members of the organization for economic cooperation and development have all agreed, including the US UK. Many European countries have all agreed that these platforms have really got to tell us if you're making money.
01:12:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Here's the hard part of that. So I wrote a piece for some Spanish magazine and they're going to pay 300 euros. Fine, I'll take the 300 euros. But, oh my God, I have to get IRS documents to prove that I'm an American, not get the Spanish tax taken out. That's a lot.
01:13:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Did you see a Neil dashes? By the way, I've been attempting to get a hold of a Neil, but his rolling. He's been on the show many times before in the past. His Rolling Stone article entitled the internet is about to get weird again.
01:13:28 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I think that's weird, as in as in Austin, we're good weird. He means good weird yeah.
01:13:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
A Neil is a lot you know. Serial entrepreneur. He was a genotropanies boss, I think that's how, and we used to have him on the show frequently. I've known a Neil for years, probably a decade or more.
01:13:45 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Oh, I've known him for probably longer than you have, because we go way back in bloggy land.
01:13:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, he's a, he's a proto blogger. Yeah, his point which is I like it is that 2024 is is going to be a watershed year for the internet. That the big tech companies, the tech giants, thanks to the EU primarily, but somewhat to the FTC, are being forced to hold their noses and embrace mandated changes, like I'm right reading his prose here like opening up their devices to allow alternate app stores to provide apps to consumers. Back in the US, a shocking judgment in Epic Games lawsuit against Google leaves us with the promise that Android phones might be opening up in a similar way. Twitter's slide into a relevance and extremism has hastened the explosive growth of a whole new host of newer social networks, including.
01:14:39
He's a. He's a Macedon user and he mentions Maston and blue sky and threads. He. He says and I think this is an interesting point of view that he sees it going back somewhat to its roots, wherever it's. My hope, yeah, I hope is I hope he's right. Yeah, and we're going to still try to get him on because I'd love to hear what he thinks about this. He says I'm not a Pollyanna about the fact that there's still going to be lots of horrible things on the internet and that too many of the tycoons who rule the tech industry are trying to make bad things worse. There's not going to be some new killer app that displaces Google or Facebook or Twitter with a love powered alternative, but that's because there shouldn't be.
01:15:24
And Neil Dash writes there should be lots of different, human scale, alternative experiences on the internet that offer up home cooked, locally grown, ethically sourced code to table alternatives to the factory farm junk food of the internet, and they should be weird. This is what Kevin Marx has been saying. The indie web you've been saying. It's what I've been saying and, honestly, this also applies to our previous conversation. That's why I don't want big tech to run up AI. I want AI to be open and available and weird AI should be weird. That's where innovation happens is at the interface. So I like this article in Rolling Stone. It's kind of an opinion piece, I guess, but Neil Dash yeah, it's labeled commentary, yeah, so we'll try to get Neil on his, I didn't expect to find it and rolling the stone I was glad it's interesting.
01:16:13
Well, Rolling Stone has become really a kind of a political opinion journal. More amazing it's cheaper to report.
01:16:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, yeah, no, a shack man took over. It's become more daily beastie.
01:16:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What is his background? Again, I'm trying to remember.
01:16:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He was he bought it right Chief of Daily Beast, Okay, and before that he was at Wired and somewhere else.
01:16:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, Rolling Stone, which I think Jan Wenner sold it.
01:16:44 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, but it's not. He doesn't own it.
01:16:46 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He was just installed as the head of it.
01:16:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right, it's penski, that's who owns it.
01:16:52 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He has brought up just all kinds of entertainment, media, trade and retail, which is bizarre because penski is, to me, is a motor racing company.
01:17:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's the. He's like the son.
01:17:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Now penski is a media now he is yeah. Recently invested a hundred million into Vox at a time when that was already having issues.
01:17:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So a big change. So do you think that Rolling Stone is more like the Daily Beast now that a shock man is in charge?
01:17:21 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, I mean editorial wise absolutely. Yeah. I mean, noah is very good at what he does and he smartly decided that the Daily Beast model was working and what Rolling Stone was doing before was not, and brought over a lot of the smartest political writers and reporters from the Daily Beast to Rolling Stone In addition to kind of revamping their cultural coverage.
01:17:46 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, you was a if you go to PMCcom, I don't want to the real you or anything, the oh I think penski.
01:17:54 - Paris Martineau (Host)
If you go to PMCcom, there'll be a tick tock on the website.
01:18:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Taking a tunnel on the Rolling Stone magazine.
01:18:02 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
But if you go to the brands, the brands pulled down billboard is variety Women's Wear Daily South by Southwest.
01:18:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The Hollywood report is Golden Globe. Awards. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Dick Clark production so rock in New Year's Eve and the Golden Globes are coming up this weekend are both owned by Penske Art Forum. The American Music Awards, the Rob Report this is a bizarre. You know we are in a weird media landscape. Deadline Deadline. So all the Hollywood reporting is now under one roof, which is a little weird variety. The Hollywood reported even deadline.
01:18:41 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
The former competitors are all there.
01:18:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, isn't that interesting. The Boy Genius Report, wow, the Streamy Awards. Mr Penske, wouldn't you like a tech podcast company? He doesn't seem to have any podcasts, he's just got a lot of stuff.
01:19:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, they now own 20% of Vox Media, which is largely a, which has a big part of it. It does have a lot of podcasts, it being a podcast company, so he's the son of the race car driver Penske, or they own motor oil or something.
01:19:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What was I know the name for motor racing, Jay? Penske is a son of oh, it's a truck rental company. Is that related.
01:19:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Jay is 44 years old.
01:19:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, he's the Scion. So Roger Penske, who was the race car guy Right, team Penske owner, roger Penske, he bought the trucking company.
01:19:45 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So that's a really interesting it really is, and Jay just wanted to go into this, and Jay got a lot of money from the Saudis to be able to bankroll all this.
01:19:58 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He co-founded Firefly Mobile. Really Remember that. Yeah, wow, the Firefly Mobile phone for children.
01:20:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So this is really so. Roger Penske, who is an IndyCar driver, took his renown as a race car driver to found the Penske Corporation. Wow, very interesting.
01:20:26 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That wasn't a bad detour, then that was an okay detour.
01:20:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a weird detour, but I brought it up because I said what's happened to the Rolling Stone and this is all from Neil Dash's interesting piece. All right, let's take a little break because I'm breathless. You're listening to this Week in Google with the shortling Anderson Cooper style of Jeff Jarvis and all we need is a cat cafe. And we've got it made. And there's one of the information.
01:21:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, where's your cat. I was about to say. My cat is clearly sleeping on her duties. She's gotta be on the screen for this.
01:21:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think we're talking to a new sponsor that makes one of those kitty letters that rotates.
01:21:16 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Do you want that? An automatic cat cleaner?
01:21:19 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah.
01:21:19 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Those are nice.
01:21:20 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, okay, they're very expensive.
01:21:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're okay, they're high quality things. All right, they're technology, they're. I love the hearing off mic.
01:21:32 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I want one too.
01:21:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Everybody wants one.
01:21:34 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Automatic cat cleaners for everyone.
01:21:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's huge, huge. Have you ever heard of Zulily?
01:21:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, what is that?
01:21:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I feel like I know that name. I think they were big e-commerce business. They are going out of business. 13 years they started in Seattle. They're shutting down their operations because they say they couldn't compete with Amazon.
01:22:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Known for its aggressive advertising.
01:22:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, Zulily, you know it might be before your time. Paris, because this was in a different era, Like five years ago.
01:22:18 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, five years ago.
01:22:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Five years ago, zulily. I don't know why I know that name, but I do, so that's why I bookmarked that one.
01:22:26 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So you got a sheen of its time Is that what it was.
01:22:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I think so Kinda. Yeah, Google has decided yeah, we're gonna throw in the towel and we're gonna settle In 2020, they were sued, you may remember this, because the so-called incognito mode really wasn't privacy forward. Google said well, yeah, you should have known that we had a little disclaimer saying everybody could see what you're doing anyway. Why didn't you know that?
01:22:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
They did, they did. You made fun of it at the time.
01:22:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, florida resident and a California. A pair of California residents accused Google of violating wiretap laws. They also said the sites used Google Analytics or Ad Manager, to collect information from the browser, even in incognito mode, including web page content, device data and IP address. The plaintiffs also accused Google of taking Chrome users' private browsing activity and then associating it with their already existing profiles. In other words, you were far from incognito. Google says well, wait a minute, we put a warning in there. That said, your activity could still be visible to the websites you visit. Well, judge Gonzalez rejected Google's bid for summary judgment in August saying you know you never really told users' data collection continued, even in incognito mode. Google has finally said they filed yesterday saying all right, we're settling, which could well cost them. I've seen numbers in the billions.
01:23:59 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, if you settle, don't you know?
01:24:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
what it costs you. Well, google and the plaintiffs have agreed to terms that were resulting in litigation being dismissed. The agreement will be presented to the court by the end of January. The court giving final approval this is our technical article does not have a dollar amount, but I think I did see some with like was it $20 billion?
01:24:18 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I thought it was hundreds of millions.
01:24:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hundreds of millions. All right, let me see if I can find some. I don't know, I could be wrong.
01:24:22 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I could be hallucinating, as they say $5 billion, $5 billion jeez, According to NPR.
01:24:29 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Your evil voice $5 billion.
01:24:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, okay, wait a minute. They agreed to settle a $5 billion lawsuit. Oh, but for how much Terms weren't disclosed? The suit originally sought $5 billion on behalf of users.
01:24:43 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah yeah yeah, okay, all right.
01:24:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I've been in that seat before. We don't know, I guess.
01:24:50 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I was gonna say. I mean, it's rare for settlement amounts to be made public in these sort of cases.
01:24:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's right, that's true, and usually, in fact, there's a cause as you can Except for this big public thing, isn't it?
01:25:00 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah? Except for this? Was it a class action suit? Yes, In that case the class was put up a second amount Actually wait a minute.
01:25:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm sorry, I don't know if it was.
01:25:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It is a class action suit, yeah, actually.
01:25:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So yeah, they'll have. They'll say what you, we all get the 50 cents each or whatever, but that's another loss for Google in the courts. It's not been a good few months for Google.
01:25:24 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So what when you used Incognito or you used Still? What does it protect? Do we know?
01:25:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's basically the spouse mode. It protects somebody with access. It doesn't add the sites you visit to your history. It prevents somebody in your home from going to your browser and looking at what you looked at. It does not infect in any other way in what you do. Ah, so I think there was some merit in this. I mean, by the way, that's true of all private browsing modes, I think. Let's see here's what Firefox says. This is in there what they don't call it Incognito, they call it private browsing. I'm in a private browsing window. It says Firefox clears your search and browsing history when you close all private windows. But this doesn't make you anonymous. It only basically clears your history. Is what it really does.
01:26:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So Google says it won't save your browsing history, cookies and site data information entered in forms. Your activity might still be visible to websites you visit, your employer or school, Everyone, your internet service provider. Certainly that's always been there, though I think.
01:26:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, no, Google's always had this climber, just as Firefox had, but the name? It's like Tesla's autopilot. The name kind of implies Incognito, and then they have a little spy with sunglasses on and a hat. It applies that you're traveling around invisibly. We've always I mean I've told people this for years, but I think it's a very common misconception just from the name. So, and Google, this will be one of those where they admit no wrongdoing, but here have some money.
01:27:13 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Did you Ultimately end up being $7 per person?
01:27:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, if that the lawyers is the only people who get rich on this. Yeah, I found this out from our local NBC affiliate in California.
01:27:30 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
This is when you were watching the local news.
01:27:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was watching the local news during the Rockin' New Year's Eve. Yeah, let me just get my hair here because I want to make sure I look good, leo is combing his hair while steering it gently in the camera. It's for the TikTok, california law enforcement officials. Authorities are told that if they pull over an autonomous vehicle without a driver, they may not write a ticket.
01:28:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
What you? Who would the ticket go for?
01:28:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Go to Well, that's part of the problem. Right, when driverless cars break the rules of the law road, there's not much the law enforcement can do about it. Tickets can only be written in California if there's an actual driver in the car. That's not true in all states. By the way, in some states you can ticket the manufacturer, the operator of the driverless vehicle.
01:28:25 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Wait, you skipped over a step here. How does a cop pull over a driverless car?
01:28:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, wait. How does the car know to pull over?
01:28:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well. I'm sure you turn around. I'm sure that the car looks for Flashing lights and sirens and pulls over To get out of the way. When you write that into the car.
01:28:48 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
How does the car know that?
01:28:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
it's being pulled over.
01:28:50 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
Yeah.
01:28:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, just like you would, it sees the flashing lights in its rear view mirror.
01:28:57 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
I hope it's not being Stash the joint under the seat we gotta pull over.
01:29:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So in Texas, according to the Texas Transportation Code, the owner of a driverless car is considered the operator, whether they're in the car or not, right? In Arizona same thing. The owner of the vehicle may be issued a traffic citation or other penalty if the vehicle fails to comply with traffic or motor vehicle laws. But in California, no, which is just Seems like a loophole. Perhaps it does I never really even thought of. I just assumed that the car would pull over if it turned on the flashers and then Pull over, pull over.
01:29:39 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Everyone should pull over when this flash is behind you to let the cop car go by, or yes, or Well.
01:29:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But I don't know, has anybody show a hands, been in a waymo and been pulled over? I mean, the thing is it doesn't happen that often because these guys are pretty good. I mean, if the one thing a waymo can do is not, they're cautious, they're very cautious, they're like grandma. Anyway, you know, cruise, of course, is practically out of business because of trouble with the San Francisco DMV and so forth. So it's really it's waymo at this point.
01:30:17 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
But wait a minute. Who should be liable For, like you know, a traffic accident?
01:30:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You say it in the software or the the passenger.
01:30:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know. Well, okay, so there's somebody driving or something. Whatever is driving is liable.
01:30:34 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
Yeah, so if it's an AI, who gets the ticket? The company that Elon owns the car, elon or?
01:30:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
whoever owns the car. I mean, sometimes these cars are driven by somebody back at the home office, more often than, apparently, than we know. But so that's a driver just because there's not somebody in the driver's seat, and yes, waymo. If nobody else, waymo, because it's their software that violated the law, you gotta be able to punish them. I mean, I'm sure that's the question that California legislature asked.
01:31:04 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
Yeah, this is probably why there's no real law. There's no law. It's like well, I don't know.
01:31:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think it's, but you know it's gotta be the company that owns the car.
01:31:15 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
It's gotta be. But they're also the ones who put the money into the politicians and stuff.
01:31:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, you think it's a profit motive.
01:31:23 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
Oh, I mean, isn't everything in America pretty much a profit motive?
01:31:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Who's who's yes.
01:31:27 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Oh, the young people are just so nihilistic.
01:31:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I mean my 40s, but it was Just like.
01:31:33 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Paris he's in his 40s. You're a young person. Take it, take the sale.
01:31:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Young person Take the sale.
01:31:42 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
They're all begging to be called a young person. I used to be a wonder kid. Can you believe?
01:31:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it. I know I call John Ashley.
01:31:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Whatever it is, he's the most eligible man in San Francisco. Well, look at what about 100. It says that on the card.
01:31:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It says it right here, Formerly one of San Francisco's 100 most eligible bachelors says it right there in print to find a read Formerly Lived in tomato fields. Oh, hefe to talk about.
01:32:07 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Lived in tomato fields.
01:32:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ah, don't get. No, no, no, we're not gonna go there. This goes back to a story I was from years ago, talking about Campbell's tomato soup. Right, Okay.
01:32:20 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I lived. I lived in Cinnamonston, new Jersey. She asked Leo Fair enough, you can we can A development that was built on the old Campbell's tomato fields.
01:32:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's all there is to the story. Did you grow up smelling the sickly sweet smell of tomatoes? Well, cause it was all on.
01:32:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It was a great. It was actually a great story about. I didn't realize this, but Campbell's made so much tomato soup. They actually they actually had to like buy up New Jersey and grow tomatoes there so well, in the only place they could really do it, and so they owned a huge farms in New Jersey.
01:32:56 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Cinnamonston and Moorstown. Yeah, cinnamonston spelled C. I double N A M I at S O N.
01:33:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a kind of article you're reading. You know metal floss, or actually it was in the. It was a close. It was in the Smithsonian magazine how Campbell's soup turned New Jersey into a tomato growing state and they actually made a special kind of tomato just for modern farmer Modern farmer, a classic Modern farmer.
01:33:25 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Oh seriously, it's wonderful.
01:33:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's reprinted by the Smithsonian, I guess. And there's a picture. That's what they give it away. That's Harry Hall. That's Jeff yeah, that's Jeff, and in his younger days, looking at tomatoes, it's Uncle Harry. This is in Cinnamonston, so I think it is. Oh, wow.
01:33:43 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, there it is, cinnamonston.
01:33:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What was the name of the tomato that they created? There was a special tomato that they made. That was what they made for Campbell's tomato soup. It's a really a great. It's actually a great story. I think it's a fascinating story. The Rutgers tomato, probably done with an extension of Rutgers University. The JTD tomato, named after John Thompson Dorrance, later president of the company, released in 1918, medium sized red tomato averaging in the eight to 12 ounce range, uniform and shaped, tasty and, most importantly, does not crack. The JTD Tomatoes crack. Oh yeah, you've seen that, haven't you? Where they kind of grow the skin. Oh, like an heirloom tomato, yeah yeah, they crack.
01:34:37
Yeah, you don't want that when they look like they're weirdly sewn together.
01:34:40 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, yeah, anyway, there you go.
01:34:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The history of tomatoes in New Jersey. Once again, how do I want some tomato soup.
01:34:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I know, don't you? Now what's the?
01:34:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
accompaniment, the natural accompaniment for a bowl of Campbell's tomatoes Grilled tomato soup.
01:34:55 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, grilled cheese. Grilled cheese, yeah.
01:34:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, gotta be. We have that most every. Friday night I have an $1,800 appliance that makes excellent tomato soup.
01:35:09 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Wait, say more. Do you need your tomatoes to be uncracked?
01:35:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, no, I actually can make it with canned tomatoes, but I prefer to use the nice Italian marzano tomatoes. It's the thermo mix. You know about the thermo Stacy introduced me to this, I think, and forced me to buy one.
01:35:33 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I was always jealous.
01:35:35 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'll not be introducing you to any $1,800 tomato-specific appliances, leo, that's my promise I also have several June ovens, thanks to her Stacy's by the way it used to be a game on the show Paris was to get Leo to buy things. Now that things aren't going so well in podcast why have you stopped doing it?
01:35:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was selling off all of the things that he bought.
01:35:54 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Let's see, as you were starting to say Stacy, he was interrupted. Stacy's going to be on.
01:35:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Twitter. When's that coming up, Benito?
01:36:00
She's going to be on Twitter on the 28th 28th of this month, oh, cool. And let's not forget Stacy's Book Club, which continues. If you are a Club Twitter member, you know that we've been doing this for some months and even though Stacy has departed this show, she says I still want to do the Book Club. So Stacy's Book Club is coming up. When is that? February 8th?
01:36:25
I'm reading the book right now. It's called the Water Knife by Palo Bacigalupi and it's really good so far. I'm really enjoying it. So, february 8th, what's it about? Huh, what is it about? I will be hosting that. That's why I'm reading the book. It's about I'm sorry, I crossed out. It's about well, so far it seems to be about Las Vegas in the future, which has become one of those you know like desert city things, you know kind of monoliths, and then Archaeology Archaeology, that's the word they use and so it's Las Vegas, because you can't live in Las Vegas because it's too hot. So it's becoming an archaeology and it's about the woman who really kind of runs it. She's kind of, anyway. It's very interesting, it's nice, yeah.
01:37:15
And, as I should mention, we are going to do an Insight twit for club members tomorrow one o'clock. Lisa and I will do a State of the Nation or a State of the Podcast, I guess One PM Pacific tomorrow. For those of you who are in the club, if you're not in the club and you want to know more about this kind of stuff and the shows we do in the club and we're going to do Samsung Galaxy Unpacked on January 17th, stuff like that join the club. Seven bucks a month. You get free versions of all the shows. You get access to the club Twit Discord, which is a wonderful community. By the way, ant's in there right now, which is great. Hi, ant we also. He says he wants an immersion blender, mayo tutorial. Okay, ant Deal.
01:38:01
I'll show you how I've never buy in Mayo again. It's amazing. You also get special programming we don't put out anywhere else, like Stacy's Book Club, and, most importantly, that $7 a month really supports what we do here. We just cannot survive on AdMoney alone, I'm sorry to say so. We need your help. I'm very pleased to say people have responded to this, and it's great. We've got 10,000 members. Now we need 35,000, which is only 5%.
01:38:32
I think Lisa would like to see that soon. The sooner the better, I think. What is it called by the end of the year? 35,000? I think so it's called the TV slash club.
01:38:43 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Twit, please give us a and get gifts. I belong to the club I bought a subscription from for son Jake.
01:38:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thank you, your whole family there. Yeah, lisa did a blog post on the 12 ways to support.
01:38:59 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
She split it. In fact, you know what? It was an example of how to do TicToc Because she split it up into a whole bunch of little bits and then strung it out.
01:39:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, and she did the same thing on the Twitter, which was great, and it's on the twit blog at twittv, and some of them don't cost any money. Anything you can do to help will be much appreciated. Joining the club is fantastic, though. I really love the club. During the Christmas break, I spent a lot of time in the Discord getting help from the advent of code experts in there. That was a lot of fun Moving right along. Should we do our AI? We've done much of it, but we can do the rest of it. Our AI segment let's oh, we don't have that. There's no, there's no.
01:39:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's no AI, ai, ai, ai, ai, ai, ai, ai, ai, ai. Can't you see? It's the.
01:39:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
AI, ai.
01:39:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's the Brooklyn version AI. We should do that for the Brooklyn and New Jersey AI AI. Ai, ai, ai, ai AI.
01:39:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
AI, ai, ai, ai, ai AI.
01:40:11 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You can take photographs of people and steal their souls. This should not be allowed.
01:40:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Actually the story is. When you read it it's like well, no, actually Martin Seligman loves this idea. So Martin Seligman, who's 81, is a psychologist very well known. Apparently he was pondering according to Mohar Chattuji who wrote this story, he was pondering his legacy at a dinner party in San Francisco. One late February evening he got an email from a graduate student in China, yukun Zhao. He had created.
01:40:46
Zhao had created, without Seligman's knowledge, a virtual Seligman Over two months by feeding every word Seligman had ever written into cutting edge AI software. Zhao had built an eerily accurate version of Seligman himself, a talking chat bot. This is exactly what we were just talking about, right? Whose answers drew deeply from Seligman's ideas, whose prose sounded like a folksier version of Seligman's own speech and whose wisdom anyone could access. Impressed, seligman went wow, circulated the chat bot to his closest friends and family to say you know, does this sound like me? And his wife said she was blown away by it. The bot is cheerfully named Ask Martin. Cheerful, that's cute. It was built by researchers in Beijing and Wuhan without Seligman's permission or even awareness. Seligman doesn't mind, he's 81. In fact, this answers the question what's going to happen after I go? I think this is fine. There are others Belgian celebrity psychotherapist, esther Perrell who were not so happy. In Southern California, a tech entrepreneur created a chat bot of her scraping her podcasts off the internet. Anyone would ever scrape podcasts off the Internet.
01:42:15 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He actually Belgian Dr.
01:42:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Phil, I guess. So what's interesting is the guy who did this, Alex. Alex, for Mansky did it because he had a recent heartbreak and he and he built it to counsel himself. So he was kind of sad. He says I know, here's his medium article instead of simply speaking with a therapist, I created an AI one. Actually, it's cheaper, yeah, probably. So we come a long way from Eliza. I don't know if Pearl was unhappy about this. She, like Seligman. The article goes on to say she was more astonished than angry. She called it artificial intimacy. I think this is a good thing. Now Congress may not. In fact, Congress has a good old Amy Klobuchar as a bill she's one of the co-sponsors called no Fakes, the no Fakes Act, which is a I'm sure it stands for some.
01:43:22
It's of course an initialism. Let me look it up.
01:43:25 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I want to be at the bar when the staffs come up with these names.
01:43:28 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, I would like that job. I just like the job of making little acronyms.
01:43:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're really retronyms because they start with what they want it to say, right. Of course.
01:43:39
Yeah, they would penalize AI for doing for generating someone's likeness without their consent. Chris Coons, marsha Blackburn, amy Klobuchar and Tom Tillis Amy, come on, just knock it off the no Fakes Act. Let's download the text of the no Fakes Act and see what that stands for. Now you've got me. What do you want to know? Title to protect the image, voice and visual likeness of individuals and for other purposes. Oh, get ready, here we go. What is no Fakes? Stand For? Nurture originals, foster art and keep entertainment safe. Act. Oh well, that's wait, wait, wait.
01:44:32 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's the no Fakes Act, no Fakes.
01:44:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it spells it. I mean, yeah, I guess you should have to give permission. Honestly, if somebody wanted to create a Leo report, I don't think there's a problem with that.
01:44:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No, it depends on how they use it.
01:44:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What if the Leo bot became more popular than you, leo, would you have a problem with that, fine, but I'm at the end of my career and someone is making money on it. It might be different for you. Right, I'm at the end of my career and I would be fine with that, but you might not.
01:44:59 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
The issue isn't making it. The issue is how you use it. If you use your image in an ad and you don't give permission, that's already illegal. It's already illegal. Yeah, you use it for a commercial purpose rather than an editorial purpose.
01:45:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
By the way, it's not illegal if I'm dead is it.
01:45:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It's not illegal if it's an editorial purpose.
01:45:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know.
01:45:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I have a mixed feelings. If you're dead for a certain period of time, because, I mean, isn't that how the estates of famous people work. Until it's cold.
01:45:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So you're cold and in your grave.
01:45:31
The no Fakes Act has received support from multiple organizations across the arts and entertainment industries. The RIAA, of course, describes the use of unauthorized AI performances as theft, the actors and writers union, sag-aftra and WGA, of course, one of the reasons they struck was they were concerned about AI. I don't know. I think I have the same position, which is it's probably already illegal to do certain things and we've got to be careful about too much regulation on this stuff because we want the innovation to happen. I think there's a benefit to it.
01:46:08 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I don't know, but I mean what innovation is happening by making an AI chat bot based on one person based off of publicly scraping all of their appearances?
01:46:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah you're probably right. Maybe the real benefit is that we learn something about it. Not necessarily that thing that they created is of that much value.
01:46:28 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, yeah, if you want to do something in private to learn something, I don't think anyone's stopping you from doing that. I think that probably what? Obviously, I don't know the text of this bill and whatnot, but I assume it has something to do with commercial use of these.
01:46:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think it just prohibits it outright, whether you make money on it or not. Good article. This is the one I would point people to, john Lacoon, who is one of the founding fathers of LLMs and is very well known. He's at Facebook. He's the Meta's chief AI scientist. Go to interview with him in Wired. He scoffs. Wired writes at his peers' dystopian scenarios of supercharged misinformation and even, eventually, human extinction. He's not a doomer, he's a voice of sanity at all of this, I think he is. When his former collaborators Jeffrey Hinton and Yashua Benjiu put their names at the top of a statement calling AI a societal scale risk, lacoon refused to sign it, he said. Instead, he signed an open letter to the US President, joe Biden, urging an embrace of open source AI, declaring it should not be under the control of a select few corporate entities. Exactly what I've been saying, but I somewhat Leo, here's a question.
01:47:51 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Here's a question when Lambda kind of leaked, the presumption of many was that, oh, they didn't, facebook wouldn't do that, they didn't want to do that and this open source stuff is accidental. I don't think so. I think Lacoon is so religious on the point. Did Lambda leak or was?
01:48:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it intentional, I think. It initially leaked and then Facebook released to the open source community a public version of it called Lama 2. Lama, yeah, lama, so I think yeah, lambda's Googles. So they're all plays on.
01:48:25 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
LLL. That's the one that's alive.
01:48:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right Lama is, too, is widely used in open source. I have some open source tools that use it as a model. The who wrote this? I'm gonna get his name. This is Steven Levy, my good friend. Steven. Hi Steven, he says. When I sat down with Lacoon in a conference room in Metta's Midtown office this fall, we talked about open source, why he thinks AI danger is overhyped and whether a computer could move the human heart the way a Charlie Parker sax solo can. Lacoon is a jazz fan.
01:49:05 - Paris Martineau (Host)
What a Steven thing to ask.
01:49:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, it is, isn't it?
01:49:08 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I love it.
01:49:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I love it. Why are Steven asked? Why are so many prominent people in tech sounding the alarm on AI, To which Lacoon?
01:49:19
says some people are seeking attention. Other people are naive about what's really going on today. They don't realize that AI actually mitigates dangers. This is interesting, like hate speech, misinformation, propagandist attempts to corrupt the electrical system. At Metta, we've had enormous progress using AI for things like that Five years ago. Of all the hate speech that Facebook removed from the platform, 20 to 25% was taken down preemptively by AI systems before anybody saw it. Last year, 95%, which I think is interesting.
01:49:55
How do you view chatbots? Steven asked are they powerful enough to displace human jobs? Lacoon said they're amazing, big progress. They're going to democratize creativity to some extent. They can produce very fluent text with very good style, but they're boring and what they come up with can be completely false. He is a voice of reason. He says Mark Zuckerberg's very involved in the AI push at Metta. Why did Metta decide that llama code could be shared or would be shared with others?
01:50:29
Open source style, lacoon says when you have an open platform that a lot of people can contribute to, progress becomes faster. He's been saying this all along. The systems you end up with are more secure. They perform better. Imagine a future in which all of our interactions with the digital world are mediated by an AI system. You don't want that system controlled by a small number of companies on the west coast of the US. He says Americans might not care, but I can tell you this In Europe they won't like it. He said they say, okay, well, this speaks English correctly, but what about French? What about German? What about Hungarian? Yeah, he is a proponent of open and I think open is the right way to go. What's sad is that was open AI's initial thesis and they they come because the cost one point, $8 million now.
01:51:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, I started listening to a podcast called mystery AI height theater 3000. Emily Bender, who's she's a co-author of the stochastic parents paper, alex Hanna, and the interesting thing is here is that I look at the code as a voice of reason. They still they, they, they, they puncture all the hype of the, of the, of the doober boys, but they also try to puncture the code for being too enthusiastic. It's really hard to get the scorecard here of who stands where on AI these days.
01:51:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, he says. I don't like the term AGI artificial general intelligence because there's no such thing as general intelligence. This is what we've grappled with. Intelligence is not a linear thing. You can measure. Different types of intelligent entities have different sets of skills. Wow, how do you define it? What is general intelligence? What is intelligence? He says? Eventually, there's no question, machines will be smarter than humans. We don't know how long it's going to take. It could take years, it could be centuries and define the spartar. At that point, leave, he says. Do we have to batten down the hatches? No, no.
01:52:29
Well, all I love this vision, by the way. The future, well, I'll have AI assistance. It'll be like working with a staff of super smart people. They won't just won't be people. Humans feel threatened by this. I think we should feel excited. The thing that excites me the most is working with people who are smarter than me, because it amplifies your own abilities. It's true, we like, we like working. I like working with you too. You're smarter than me. That's, that's, that's what makes the world go round. Why would I not want an AI assistant who's also smarter than me, right?
01:52:58 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He says, and you know what, it's not going to be the same order as that. It wouldn't suggest going to different lines of the rundown when you don't want to Exactly my point.
01:53:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's no reason.
01:53:08 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I would never watch this talk.
01:53:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's no reason that Coon says to believe that just cause AI systems are intelligent, they will want to dominate us. People are mistaken when they imagine AI systems will have the same motivations as humans. They just won't. We'll design them not to. That's what Ray Kurzweil always said to. Anyway, I think it's very interesting. Have you tried to get him on? No, but that's good. Benito, make a note of that. Beyond would be fantastic on this show. I'll try Love to get him. Yeah, here's a great piece in the tech dirt, mike Mazdik nailing it again. The FTC continues to wade into copyright issues in AI without understanding anything.
01:53:53 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I love that the kind of subhead is the from the. Why is the FTC even looking at this department?
01:54:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
on the article he says uh seriously, what the F is the FTC doing? Endorsing any of these bonkers points without pushing back on why they themselves are anti, competitive and problematic? Instead, the FTC endorses the untested idea that all training data must be licensed. It also argues that style mimicry is a concern, when that's kind of the basis of almost all creators learning and building their own styles. The problem old training data must be licensed, geez. The problem is that the FTC brought in a bunch of creators. He said it was a very one sided round table of people from the creative industries who more or less all agreed everyone should be forced to give them money at every opportunity.
01:54:49
Uh-huh, uh-huh, this is Mike, he's so great he says hey, this is not part of the FTC's portfolio, it's not part of their mandate, they shouldn't be weighing in and they're wrong, they're misguided. Um, he's you know. So I agree with him. Uh, the F, this is not the FTC's concern. I'm not sure why they think it is. And, by the way, you want to encourage competition. That's how you do it, you don't. You don't shut down AI, you encourage it. Uh, all right, I think that was our AI segment, unless you guys have a line number to fire at me.
01:55:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Actually this week I think it was all crap.
01:55:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, there is, as I mentioned, we're going to do the uh. Uh, I don't know if it's worth doing, but we're going to do the Samsung unpacked event which is coming up. They, they announced that CES is next week, right? So for some reason, samsung, instead of announcing this at CES or concurrently with CES, is waiting and will announce the galaxy S24 with AI, by the way. That's a big part of this. Uh, and they're going to do that. Uh, 10 am Pacific. They're coming to California to do it, which is interesting. That's what they did was in Korea and at an ungodly hour. Uh, the Samsung event will be at 10 am. On the galaxy unpacked event on the 17th.
01:56:16 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'm so hoping. I'm so hoping for a new galaxy Chromebook that would be good.
01:56:21 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Can you just get a Chromebook?
01:56:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No, well, no, I have. No, I return the, I return things oh you return the Chromebook, you return the Acer.
01:56:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Why?
01:56:31 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, I have an ASUS that I hate Okay.
01:56:34 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's the last, thing, but you got the case I tried to return it and they would want it.
01:56:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You got the ACE, so the Kevin Toffle recommended right.
01:56:42 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, and it it um. He said, uh, he was very unhappy for me, um, but yeah, it was the lemon. I think it was just bad.
01:56:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, you just got a bad one, but you're not going to get another one.
01:56:53 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No.
01:56:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, samsung uh is, of course, using the latest Qualcomm chip, which has a uh ML processing unit built into it, as do all iPhones nowadays. And uh, samsung is going to tout the fact that AI will be available with a push of a button. So I don't know if it'll be Bixby or something smarter, but we will cover that, we'll. We'll do that live right before when it's really two weeks.
01:57:16 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I hope it has a better name than Bixby.
01:57:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I like the name Bixby. It's kind of nerdy and it's like somebody would wear really dark glasses and it's like a sixties sitcom character. Yeah, it does feel like it's Bill Bixby. Yeah, and Amazon's planning to make its own hydrogen powered vehicles. Oh no, he's going to, and Amazon's going to make hydrogen to power vehicles. Okay.
01:57:43
Amazon, because I guess they use a lot of hydrogen powered stuff and they're, they're they're in warehouses, yeah, forklifts and things yeah. So they partnered with hydrogen company plug power to install the first electrolyte extra electrolyzer which splits water molecules to produce hydrogen and a fulfillment center in Aurora, colorado. It will make fuel for 225 forklifts.
01:58:07 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's pretty fun.
01:58:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, clean hydrogen is a little problematic. There's not like any green hydrogen really yet, but maybe this will help move that why?
01:58:20 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Because it consumes energy to make it, or, um, I can't To make truly green hydrogen says, the verge.
01:58:25 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Amazon would have to make sure it's new electrolyzer runs on renewables. The company is looking into pairing it with renewable energy generated on site, but doesn't have a concrete timeline for when that might happen.
01:58:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Most hydrogen is made with fossil fuels, uh, which releases obviously the same stuff that your car releases. Uh, there's also a methane leak issue. So, yeah, hydrogen is not super clean at this point. Someday, actually, solar splitting of water would be awesome, Wouldn't it? Poor Elon Musk. According to Fidelity, which put money into Twitter, the value of Twitter has fallen 71% since he bought it. They're writing down the value of their shares.
01:59:11 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
All does he blame but himself?
01:59:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love that clip of him saying it's the advertisers fault. He says the whole world will know.
01:59:20 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
The earth will know, the earth will know. And then advertisers. I'm on.
01:59:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Mars.
01:59:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Elon Ended, ended Twitter. Yeah, okay, okay. Um, wired is 30. Did you go to the party, uh, paris?
01:59:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, I did not get invited to the wire 30th party. It's in San Francisco, though, so I don't feel bad about that 30 years.
01:59:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's hard to believe it's changed a lot since 30 years ago. When it first came out in the 90s, you could barely read it Cause it was at this weird high contrast or low contrast page design and all that stuff. But then there's line 92, the podcast police. Oh wait a minute. We already did that.
02:00:06 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It would have fit in so much better now it would have just been perfect right now.
02:00:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, it sucks the transition.
02:00:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We can edit it around. Uh, I think we have come to the end of the line. Could that be?
02:00:24 - Paris Martineau (Host)
wait, you're not going to go to the super important one of don't forget to wish every horse in the Northern hemisphere happy birthday, because all Northern hemisphere horses are have the recorded birthday of January 1st. That's super important and relevant.
02:00:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So wait a minute. So two year old, it means they're not two years old from their birthday, but two years old from January 1st. January 1st.
02:00:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yes, what if that's how? Every horse that races at the Kentucky Derby is the same birthday, january 1st. So wish your local horses happy belated birthday.
02:01:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Just one more reason. The whole thing is bizarre. I think we should do the Google change lock you ready, here we go, the Google change log. It's nothing in the change.
02:01:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
What is in the change log Leo?
02:01:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's absolutely nothing in the change we already did, though that's it. Thank you very much. Good night everybody.
02:01:33
When we come back your picks of the week. Prepare them, if you will. You're watching this week in Google. Little plea, by the way, just before we get back to the action, to take our survey. We do this every year Twittertv slash survey 24. It's pretty quick 10 minutes but it helps us understand you, what you like, what you don't like. That's become very important. We want to make sure we're giving you the material you want, but it also helps us sell ads, because we don't give advertisers tracking information, so that means we have to give them aggregate information like our audience is 58% male, is 28% college educated, whatever those kinds of statistics. So help us out, go to twittertv slash survey 24 and take the survey you have to the end of the month, but don't put it off, and I thank you in advance. We do this every year. It's very, very helpful. Paris.
02:02:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I have two this week. One is the failure museum which I believe is failure dot museum, which is an online collection of failed companies and products. That's really fun. One of my friends, I think I tweeted about it because they recently added a mug from a convoy which was a recently recently imploded freight and shipping start. But it's just a very fun little website cataloging all the failures, from juicera to FTX to blockbuster and more.
02:03:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We had these when I was a kid Jarts lawn darts with metal spikes.
02:03:13 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Banned by the consumer product safety.
02:03:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And rightly so. These things had. Look at them. They're big, they're heavy and they have sharp points. Yeah, yeah, we had these when I was a kid Jarts, we didn't know.
02:03:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Second amendment requires that we, we are we every nation.
02:03:32 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I do think there's something in the constitution that says we have to have Jarts.
02:03:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We have a well regulated Jart team. I love the FTX. Uh, Schwag, that's kind of nice. I wouldn't mind having some of that. Yeah, FTX pool party limited edition bobblehead of.
02:03:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Samuel.
02:03:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Bank and freed.
02:03:52 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Forbes magazine where he's in the cover.
02:03:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Fantastic, so by the way, there was a story I put in that, just while we're on this, I'm not going to go to a line number, but his anthropic investment is is potentially going to turn out so well. All of his people could have been getting paid back.
02:04:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh my God, so he wasn't such a scammer, right.
02:04:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Great for shareholder value.
02:04:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, I think he invested himself, but anyway, uh, like a three to four billion dollars, and it may, uh, the law firm has already gotten a lot of money together. So they may, they may be whole.
02:04:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here's my favorite. I don't know why Mattel killed. This is called growing up, skipper. Uh, you twist her arm and her breasts grow.
02:04:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
See her grow slim and tall and curvy it says for a little girl, skipper, turn her arm all the way around clockwise, then she's cute and young. Wow, cute little girl. Sassy Tall, curvy teenager you choose.
02:04:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, growing up skipper at the failure museum. This is so fun. I love this.
02:05:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
My second pick is equally as fun, it's a letter of recommendation for visiting your local medieval times. On Friday, me and my recreational ski ball team went to the Lenders New Jersey castle. We all dressed up and it was honestly a fantastic time. We were mostly going there for the bit. We're like oh, medieval times, it'll be very funny but honestly, they put on a fantastic show. The horses danced, they jousted Are the nights cute. The nights were cute also. There were female nights as well, who were also cool Everybody there.
02:05:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Enjoy your turkey leg.
02:05:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I did enjoy my uh turkey. Honestly, the food was fantastic. They had a tomato bisque soup to begin, yeah, then no utensils, right, no utensils.
02:05:56 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
All with your hands, all slurp.
02:05:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I love medieval times. I've been to the medieval times in Southern California.
02:06:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Uh, you were the little hat the crown. Oh, we did wear the hat. Yeah, I'll find a photo for you guys. Yes, there are, we dressed up also.
02:06:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I like, I like you and your friends. I really think that's awesome. You have a good group of friends. That's fantastic.
02:06:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yes, we uh here. How do you know there?
02:06:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Are they college buddies? Are they just people you met on the streets? There are friends.
02:06:28 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Just I know through um journalists. Maybe Technically all of these people are on my recreational ski ball team.
02:06:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, you mentioned that Called Bougioiski.
02:06:36 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, bougioiski, which is we Bougioiski, we play in the fall. I know them originally, uh, a couple of them through journalism, but the rest don't work in journalism. Um, here I'll post, I'm posting.
02:06:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I've seen your ski ball pictures on your Instagram and. I realized this was a serious thing for you.
02:06:57 - Paris Martineau (Host)
This is, oh, I mean serious, is a an interesting word. Um, we are a famously losing ski ball team this year we won zero games. Is there? Yes, there's a league. There's a league that we play in every fall during the fall. It's called um, it's called volo Uh is the actual.
02:07:19 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You catch that the season.
02:07:21 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yes, Thank you, um, during the yeah, during the season we compete. Last year, when I first joined this ski ball team about three years ago, the Bougioiski had never won a game. I will say, the first two years I was there we did win multiple games. Whether or not that was related to me, I guess, is a good question, because this year we won zero, but a lot of people are traveling for weddings.
02:07:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh so this ski ball game, for those of you who don't know you roll a ball up an incline and you try to get it into the target areas. It's kind of like uh, rolling darts and you get points.
02:07:58 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it's something you'll often see at arcades or, um, you know, in a corner of a bar it's is it hard to get them? In various. It is. Well, it's hard to be good at it because the thing is it's a very specific skill. You both have to roll the ball up with precision but then give it the right amount of lift and it changes depending on the uh the machine. So it's kind of hard to practice.
02:08:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Do you have uniforms for your ski ball team?
02:08:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, but we for next year want to make custom leatherman Jack letterman jackets. I think it would be very fun.
02:08:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I do see some of these teams have outfits and they give us volosports is like a intramural recreational sports league. This is such a smart business.
02:08:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They give us um.
02:08:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is what you need T-shirts. That makes me want to do, you know, the chat. I love it.
02:08:54 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
There's also a Paris, as the medieval dining room winch.
02:08:59 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yes, I did post photos of us going when she went to the chat. I did, I did dress up. It was perfect. My outfit was pretty good, honestly it's very good.
02:09:10 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It's very good.
02:09:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
One of those things I had to buy.
02:09:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The next one you can see my full outfit if you want. There you go. Right next to the night there's a full winch mode.
02:09:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, that's wearing a long skirt and a little uh sash and I've got a a leather little top. The leather top is the one thing I bought from a little.
02:09:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was going to say, if you owned that I would be a little more. No, everything else.
02:09:34 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Everything else was normal.
02:09:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it was very cute, so it was a fun time we were the only people dressed up at medieval times. Well, the only adults on the only adults.
02:09:44 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Do they have beer?
02:09:46 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh yes, they have alcohol.
02:09:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Okay, okay.
02:09:50 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We had a portion of Ironic's.
02:09:53 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I already seeking adults versus children and families.
02:09:58 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Um, I would say there were a lot more children and people celebrating birthdays than I would have thought. They had a segment where they went through and announced all the birthdays and it lasted five to maybe 10 minutes, Although I think it could have been. If you're buying a group uh package, you can put in like a little message and obviously, if we had had the foresight to do that, I'm sure someone in our group would have celebrated a fake birthday for one of us as far as like humiliation. But honestly, it was a great show too. There was a falconer, a falcon sword throughout the stadium and did the little tricks and you came to New Jersey.
02:10:36
I did come to New Jersey. We took an Uber from Manhattan to the castle.
02:10:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's better in Jersey, I think we the one in Southern California is full of failed actors, so they really hand it up. It's kind of. Jeff we have the New.
02:10:53 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Jersey one is unionized. Oh, a SAG after a sure sure.
02:10:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Or is it the steelworkers union? What is the? What is the union?
02:11:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I do think it might be SAG after a performance union Yep.
02:11:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Interesting. We're all equity here, jeff, your pick of the week.
02:11:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Oh, you know, it's the first part of the year, there's just not much. So I hate demographics and I think that's the ruin of society, is putting people in the buckets. But Axios is insisting that there's a new generation. Oh, oh no, the oldest, or 13, the youngest, will be born in the coming year, the first generation born entirely in this century. Okay, and so they're going to be miserable young people who are going to be mad at us for pandemics and and climate and all of that. They're going to be unhappy.
02:11:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think there's probably a competition among blogs to be the first to name the generation and clearly. Axios has scooped everybody else on this one. They're not the first generation to be born in this century. This century is 23 years old.
02:12:04 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I know, so that doesn't like a lot of things.
02:12:06 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, it's got to be the first entirely online cohort.
02:12:09 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
No, maybe they were born of parents that were born in this century.
02:12:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I think that's more like it. It's more like the children of millennials is what it is, born between 2010 and 2024. It is expected to be the largest in history at more than two billion, but of course, that's just because the world is getting.
02:12:27 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Meanwhile, everybody's predicted. There's stories this week too, about how the population is going to peak and go down. Yeah, everybody says.
02:12:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, mostly the children of millennials. They are the successor to Gen Z. That's why we have to go to Greek letters. We're out of we're out of Roman letters. So from Gen Z to Gen Alpha.
02:12:44 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
We started at X though, so we didn't start the end yeah, we can just go back.
02:12:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We can start with a All right.
02:12:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Why don't we start with X?
02:12:53 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
Because we're the coolest generation.
02:12:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, no start with baby boomers, no, no, baby boomers.
02:12:57 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, boomers, okay, I know, but as far as letters, letters, no, no no, was that the next after baby boomers?
02:13:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It was Gen X, yep, and then Gen Y and then Gen Z.
02:13:06 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
Gen Y is the millennials.
02:13:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, huh. So these, these alphas are the most of the children of millennials, which is about right, yeah, what are you guys? What do you mean? You guys Me, no, not you. I know your goal I'm a baby boomer.
02:13:24 - Leo's Lapotop Audio (Other)
I'm a Gen X. I'm a Gen X.
02:13:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He's a Gen X and and your Gen Y probably Paris, right.
02:13:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I'm, I'm cusp, depending on what you I'm pretending on what you ask. I'm either millennial or Gen Z.
02:13:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right in the right in the border there. Well, there you have it. That was exciting. Don't forget to get the audio edition of Jeff's book, which is equally exciting. You'll find it on audible and elsewhere. It's Jeff reading his own.
02:13:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And it will freak you out that I speak like a human being but you can speed it up, so it's normal you will get headache from it.
02:14:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Gutenberg parenthesiscom. That's also where you can get his new, newest book magazine object lesions magazine the Gutenberg parenthesis, and he's working on a new one, kids. He never stops.
02:14:18
Just like we, we, what's called the web we weep, web we weave, a weave that makes it Makes more sense. The web, we weep. That's the book. All right, jeff Jarvis is, ladies and gentlemen, the director of the town night center for entrepreneurial journalism at the now Craig Newmark graduate school of journalism at the city university of New York. For now Emeritus the orbiting. Soon, soon you got through August, don't, don't rush it, don't rush it. Paris Martin is working hard on a super secret project at the informationcom. If you're not a subscriber, that's true.
02:14:59 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Not too late to subscribe schedule first, as do we know when.
02:15:03 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I cannot confirm or not even that. No, I do have to take some calls immediately after this podcast.
02:15:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So do with that information, do they?
02:15:13 - Paris Martineau (Host)
give you a deadline. Well, it depends. Once, like the reporting and stuff is there, certainly will schedule something for it. I mean, I think a large part of what my editor has to do is be like all right, Paris, time to come out of the rabbit hole now.
02:15:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Stop reporting.
02:15:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's enough, but that's an editor's job so cool, so cool.
02:15:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, I can't wait to see it. And of course the informationcom is well worth subscribing to. I do so does Jeff. We really love this. It is one of the great sources of information.
02:15:48
It's actually, honestly, it's much more useful for people covering technology than the times or anything, or even Bloomberg. It's really good. Thank you for that. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us and for you club to members. Thank you so much for making this show possible to our advertisers as well.
02:16:06
We do this week in Google on Wednesdays, 2 pm Pacific, 5 pm Eastern. That's 2100 UTC. Sorry, 2200 UTC. The website is twittv slash twig. We do stream on YouTube during the live show. So if you want to watch us do the show, you can go to youtubecom slash twit. Whenever a show is in production, you'll see a live stream there. After the fact, download an episode from the website or go to YouTube. There's a this week in Google channel on YouTube. If you like the video. You can also subscribe to audio or video on your favorite podcast client. We like pocket casts, but you know, pick the one you like and subscribe. That way you'll get it automatically the minute it's available. Don't forget the survey If you haven't yet join club twit. Thank you for being here and we'll see you next time on this week in Google. Bye, bye.
02:16:59 - Rode Pyle (Announcement)
Hey, I'm Rod Pyle, editor in chief of Ad Astra magazine, and each week I joined with my cohost to bring you, this week in space, the latest and greatest news from the final frontier. We talked to NASA, chief space scientists, engineers, educators and artists, and sometimes we just shoot the breeze over what's hot and what's not in space books and TV. And we do it all for you, our fellow true believers. So, whether you're an armchair adventurer or waiting for your turn to grab a slot in Elon's Mars rocket, join us on this week in space and be part of the greatest adventure of all time.
