Windows Weekly Episode 778 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for windows weekly. Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo are here. They are back from their hosting duties at build. Have lots to talk about including the inside on project. Volera there's a new dev box net Maui, his general availability. That's a big deal and windows 11 version 22 H two is here. It's all coming up next with a lot more on windows, weekly Podcasts you love

Mary Jo Foley (00:00:31):
From people. You trust this.

Leo Laporte (00:00:38):
They ask his windows weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley episode 778 recorded Wednesday, May 25th, 2022. Undo your ink windows weekly is brought to you by it. Pro TV. Give your team an engaging it development platform to level up their skills. Volume discounts. Start at five seats, go to it. Pro.Tv/Windows, and make sure to mention WW 30 to your designated it pro TV account executive to get 30% off or more on a business plan. And by Tanium Tanium, unites operations and security teams with a single platform that identifies where all your it data is patches. Every device you own in seconds and implements critical security controls all from a single pain of class. Are you ready to protect your organization from cyber threats? Learn more at tanium.com/TWiT and by Intel orchestrated by the experts at C D w to deliver multilayer security and remote manageability with the Intel vPro platform powered by 12th generation Intel core processors.

Leo Laporte (00:01:52):
Learn more at cdw.com/intel client. It's time for windows weekly to show where we cover the latest news from Microsoft, just off their appearance on the build stage. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Mary Jo Foley and Paul Thurrott very important. Paul goes in the left. <Laugh> Mary Jo Foley on the right. Paul is of course thera.com. Mary Jo Foley at CD net. I guess they got it wrong at build. Huh? Did I didn't even notice. And then after someone pointed it out, you can't unsee it. Yeah. Yep. You know, it's so fun. I mean, you know, it's completely arbitrary, but it's kind funny that, you know,

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:27):
It's a habit.

Leo Laporte (00:02:28):
It's a habit. Mary Jo should always be looking to her. Right. To see Paul tht. That's just the

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:33):
Way it is. I'm always right. So that's why I'm on.

Leo Laporte (00:02:36):
Oh, there you go. That explains it's good. And Paul, oh, I gotta fix your lower third cuz you are no longer. Oh

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:43):
Yeah. Is

Leo Laporte (00:02:44):
There a nickname for me? Mexico city? Like, does it have a, like C DMX,

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:49):
C CDX or max? What do you always put?

Leo Laporte (00:02:52):
But isn't there like the CD MX taco VI USA or something there's gotta be no, I guess it's not. I don't think so.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:58):
I know. I, I, a few people there, but I

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:02):
<Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:03:04):
Don't think that's gonna

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:04):
Work. It's like calling San Francisco Frisco. It's a no. Oh

Leo Laporte (00:03:07):
Definitely a no, definitely

Paul Thurrott (00:03:09):
A no are you're looking for like a bean town type thing?

Leo Laporte (00:03:11):
No, not bean town.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:13):
Well Bo I mean like Bo for Boston.

Leo Laporte (00:03:14):
Boston. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Like bean town. Yeah. Do they don't call it be town. Definitely. that's out call they should have a name. I bet it does have a name among its, you know, amongst its 

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:28):
Right. Like the big apple. What's the equivalent,

Leo Laporte (00:03:30):
The big apple.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:31):
Right? I don't know. It used to be the

Leo Laporte (00:03:33):
Soy Mexico city or

Paul Thurrott (00:03:35):
The district federal. 

Leo Laporte (00:03:37):
No, no, no. You're thinking formal names. You're talking nicknames.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:42):
Well, but people would refer to it as the DF, you know, like

Leo Laporte (00:03:45):
Back the DF. Okay. But now it's the DF.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:48):
I like it. That's like a, I like it. It's like an east Germany thing. Like we don't really use that anymore.

Leo Laporte (00:03:53):
Yeah. I don't

Paul Thurrott (00:03:54):
Know.

Leo Laporte (00:03:55):
We need to, you know, that's all right. We'll work on it. We show, oh God, I just erased whatever I did. Oh man. I was just stalling to get the 

Paul Thurrott (00:04:05):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:04:05):
Lower third fixed. And somehow I've HMED it up. I've I I've lower maced it. Oh yeah. I should really save and duplicate shouldn't I I'll let, I'll let you do it, John. We just won't have them be anywhere.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:19):
There

Leo Laporte (00:04:20):
You go. You're nowhere.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:21):
The limbo that's

Leo Laporte (00:04:21):
Good. There you go. LDF,

Paul Thurrott (00:04:28):
LDF,

Leo Laporte (00:04:28):
That sounds like latter day something or day some things <laugh> I dunno what, anyway, you, you had a good visit. You came back I saw your, you know, wife, we followed your Instagram food blog and welcome home.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:43):
That's all we did was go shopping and eat. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:04:46):
You know? Well, good thing to do in Mexico city.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:50):
<Laugh> I mean, I would've enjoyed relaxing. Maybe seeing something, but

Leo Laporte (00:04:53):
You will next time this was getting ready. Getting ready. So build is build over or is it as there's a date another day, day,

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:02):
Another day tomorrow. Tomorrow,

Leo Laporte (00:05:04):
Tomorrow. Oh wow. Yep. Okay. But yesterday was such as keynote, which I maybe made a mistake, not streaming. Was there anything very exciting in it?

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:14):
We talked about that yesterday. If was, if it was good or bad that we didn't stream it on windows weekly. And so, you know what? It was a, it was a keynote for developers. Right. Very developer heavy, which was great. Right. That's what it should have been.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:29):
I thought it was great. I, I don't know that it would've mixed well

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:33):
With, and it didn't have the big bang excitement stuff, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. Like not like a WWDC or Google IO. It didn't ha they didn't show a lot of futures. They showed a few things that were futures, but not a lot. Right?

Paul Thurrott (00:05:47):
Mm, no. And not I, and not what we would call kind of consumer oriented. Right,

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:53):
Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:54):
Which I think would've suck it for a lot of people.

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:56):
Yeah. I, I think they, other other years with build, they've tried to do more of a Google IO, WDC type keynote, and people criticized it because they're like, this is a show for developers. Right. And we want developer news. So this whole thing was all developer news all the time. Like there was nothing you would say wasn't developer news, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:06:16):
<Laugh> that's, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's what I liked about it. I, you know, I, same build is typically my favorite Microsoft show. I it's, because of the developer focus mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, back in the day when build started, whatever year, that was 2011, 2012, it was windows <laugh>, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> OT was just coming, starting to happen or embedded or whatever. And of course Azure was a thing, you know, and, and mm-hmm, <affirmative> the, the tables have flipped a little bit it's, you know, largely Azure these days, but windows got a lot of time on my thought.

Mary Jo Foley (00:06:50):
It did. I thought keynote. I thought that it

Paul Thurrott (00:06:51):
Generally. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:06:53):
Yeah. You know what they did this year? I don't know if you noticed this Satya starts out and he's like, here are the 10 tech things I'm gonna talk about. I love that they did that because it helped you follow along where he was going. Cuz sometimes I gotta say, I feel like he he's a very nice man, but he wanders when he gives these keynotes. Right? Like you're like, what are we talking about now? Like where are we going with this? I don't see where we're going. And he just had these 10 talking points and he just went through and boom, boom, boom, boom. Here's the 10 things. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:23):
I don't mean to completely sidetrack this, but the congee is not likem. Conge it's

Leo Laporte (00:07:27):
<Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:07:28):
Where like mice,

Leo Laporte (00:07:29):
We're trying to, we're trying to SP we'll fix.

Mary Jo Foley (00:07:31):
He can't he can't unsee this. He cannot, he's gonna distract

Leo Laporte (00:07:35):
Him. Is it M a C? Is that what it is?

Paul Thurrott (00:07:37):
Yeah. M a C U N G I

Leo Laporte (00:07:38):
Is it a capital

Paul Thurrott (00:07:39):
C?

Leo Laporte (00:07:40):
No. Okay. Like this like this? Yeah. Yeah. It looks like MCLE if I do that though, it does. Sure.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:48):
Okay. Well Google maps depending yeah. Google maps, depending on which street you're on. We'll call it because their roads around here are Mckenjie and lower Mckenjie we'll say GY

Leo Laporte (00:07:59):
MCCE. Oh, I know. I love

Paul Thurrott (00:08:00):
It. When you turn around the corner and it says Mckenjie and it's I,

Leo Laporte (00:08:03):
I love on Google maps. Attempts to pronounce things. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna put

Paul Thurrott (00:08:09):
Township shop. It looks like it's like Mace's golf and Emporium is what that looked like before.

Leo Laporte (00:08:15):
Yeah. Okay. Your guy with like a mace, the good Scottish township of mace <laugh> and by the way we're gonna call it Mexico. 10 Olan from now on that's the year. Oh wow.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:29):
Original, simple name. That is easy to

Leo Laporte (00:08:31):
Spell. It's very catchy. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:33):
It's I like that. You went with the Aztec by the way.

Leo Laporte (00:08:35):
That's good. Yeah. Let's go with the Aztec name during the 19th century. This all comes from our friend 7, 7 0 7 1 5 com 1 0 2. His, his confer address. Sure. it was, I know it's a him, like we don't know <laugh> but I know he lives in Mexico or, or they live in Mexico. Okay. Laquida de Los PIOs. The city of the palaces lately. Qui city's

Paul Thurrott (00:09:01):
The original Venice

Leo Laporte (00:09:03):
Informally. Mexico city is known as we gotta go there now because it got cut off day Fe. Oh, that's DF. Okay. D DF a yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:09:16):
Yeah, yeah. See people still call it that

Leo Laporte (00:09:18):
DFE or old DFA. DFA. That's what they call the Kinji township. The mace DFA, DFA.

Paul Thurrott (00:09:30):
L

Leo Laporte (00:09:32):
<Laugh> Laak Laak alright. Lower, lower Mac. Now let us lower continue on with the boring. I mean the fascinating,

Paul Thurrott (00:09:42):
Let us actually start,

Leo Laporte (00:09:43):
Let us talk about build 2 0 2, 2.

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:47):
I think you're gonna care about some of these. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:09:49):
The biggest I'll tell you what the story, that, the only story that came out of it in mainstream media was this little Mac mini, like arm dev machine mm-hmm <affirmative>. That was that.

Paul Thurrott (00:09:59):
This says so much about our industry. You know, that it does like people like, oh, look, it looks like a Mac Mac mini. Let's write about that.

Leo Laporte (00:10:05):
Yeah. It's project ter, which sounds like a Marvel comic universe of evil villain. I was gonna say star Trek. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:13):
Italian city. Isn't it?

Leo Laporte (00:10:15):
Yeah. Probably something like that. It's lower McKenzie. It's the nickname for lower McKenzie. <Laugh> so it's a dev kit. It's

Paul Thurrott (00:10:22):
The original Aztec name? The lower

Leo Laporte (00:10:24):
Mckenzie. What kind of, what kind of, is it a Qualcomm processor? What is it?

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:28):
Yes. Okay. We don't know what the processor is, but we know it's much as we know

Leo Laporte (00:10:32):
<Laugh> okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:34):
<Laugh> they haven't told any of this text specs yet to the public. But they said, it's coming out later this year. They showed it pic. They showed us pictures of it. A mockup of it. It looks like a little box. You can stack them up and or you and or put them in racks. The, as you see on our header on notion, that's a picture of it at the top. I

Leo Laporte (00:10:56):
Will, I will show everybody our notion header, just so that you can see it. It's kind of alongside Satcha. It's it's kind of cute. Why are there two is

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:04):
They're showing you can stack 'em.

Leo Laporte (00:11:06):
Oh, okay. So, so there's two on one on top of the other is what we're seeing.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:09):
Right? Okay. Exactly. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:11:13):
Why would you stack them?

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:15):
If you want multiple

Paul Thurrott (00:11:17):
Stacked, come on.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:18):
<Laugh> you want multiple boxes? I don't know.

Leo Laporte (00:11:21):
Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:22):
Working in conjunction. And

Leo Laporte (00:11:23):
How did they say a price or anything like

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:25):
That?

Leo Laporte (00:11:25):
No,

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:26):
No,

Leo Laporte (00:11:26):
Nope. Nope.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:27):
They did not. No, no risk.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:29):
I like that. Leo has instantly gotten to everything they haven't talked about. Yes. Because this is the big conversation. No, it's good. It's it's right. Because same thing. What, what processor is this? What's the point of this? When's it coming down? How much does it cost? Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:42):
Now the one thing we can guess on is the point of it. Right. Which we were talking about right before the show started. Right. So when Microsoft taught

Leo Laporte (00:11:50):
Mean <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:51):
Right. Well, they gave so few details. They gave us a sizzle video, right? Like they showed a very, probably very expensive to produce sizzle video from Panos and team about what this thing looked like, spinning through space, things exploding. Right. And then I'm like, yeah. But yeah. Okay. What about the specs guys? <Laugh> no. So they, the thing they highlighted about it was it's gonna have a CPU. GPU, NPU, NPU is neural processing unit.

Leo Laporte (00:12:20):
Is this the video?

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:21):
This is the video. Oh

Leo Laporte (00:12:23):
My God. This is absurd.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:24):
Remember this is, this is like all the surface videos, right? Nonsense. It is. It was made, made by the same team that made Prometheus, I guess. I don't know what the point of this

Leo Laporte (00:12:33):
Is. They spent you're right. They spent a ton of, yeah, they

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:36):
Really, they spent a lot of money on this video.

Leo Laporte (00:12:37):
It's crazy. And it it's just rocks breaking up and then spitting out this box, which is completely bland.

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:46):
A little square box. Johnny

Leo Laporte (00:12:47):
Ive would logo. What is the point of this? Of, of plastic. Yeah. Yeah. It's got a snap. Dragon's snap. Dragon. We know it's snap drag. Although

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:56):
Neural processing unit right there.

Leo Laporte (00:12:58):
As you point out in your article, there is no kind of desktop class Snapdragon until later next year. Right. Right. Made from plastic recycling.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:07):
Right? Recycled. There's all the port.

Leo Laporte (00:13:08):
Multiple parts.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:09):
Lots of ports all over it. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:13:11):
Okay. Stackable

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:12):
Designing

Leo Laporte (00:13:13):
For desktops and rack deployment. Yeah. But this is a dev kit. It's not, or is it intended for network operations center? Is it, oh, look, you can have three of promoting

Paul Thurrott (00:13:24):
It. Right. Now's

Leo Laporte (00:13:24):
A dev

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:25):
Kit.

Leo Laporte (00:13:25):
Why would you want three then?

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:29):
We don't know. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:13:31):
Is it three times faster?

Paul Thurrott (00:13:33):
I, I,

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:34):
We don't really

Paul Thurrott (00:13:34):
Know. Let's let's speculate about the point. What's the point. Right? So we have discussed this amongst ourselves because Microsoft has never really come out and explained it. So what was your, what was your theory? Mary Jo?

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:46):
So my theory is they've spent almost a decade, if not a full decade, working on windows unarm, it still has never taken off. There are a couple machines out there that have arm processors. They underwhelmed for the most part, right? Like they don't even give you the right battery life for the power consumption savings you're supposed to get with arm. So Microsoft doesn't wanna throw away all this work they've done on arm. And especially now that everyone's saying Apple's doing arm, what are you doing, Microsoft? So that they they're like, what could we do with windows on arm? That would make sense. Okay. What if we made it an AI development machine? Like what if we said it's a development machine for the development community and it's gonna be extra well suited to building AI applications because it has an onboard NPU, neuro processing unit

Paul Thurrott (00:14:31):
NPU. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:33):
So I think they've given up on making it a general purpose computer, I think,

Leo Laporte (00:14:38):
But wait, excuse me. But the pixel six has an NPU. The iPhone has an MPU. Yeah. All M one, but

Paul Thurrott (00:14:43):
You know what? Doesn't have an

Leo Laporte (00:14:44):
MPU. What?

Paul Thurrott (00:14:45):
Yeah, but X 86 ships do not,

Leo Laporte (00:14:47):
Not any Intel things.

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:48):
Yeah. And neither do AMD. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:50):
I mean, maybe that, maybe that comes

Leo Laporte (00:14:51):
Right. 13Th generation. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:54):
Yeah. So I think that could be it. So I like this. I do.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:57):
<Laugh> I like that idea, but I, I, I guess I would just, ASTE the bit about them giving up. I, I don't, I don't think they've given up on arm as a general purpose computing platform. You don't, I I believe

Leo Laporte (00:15:07):
Clearly not. I mean, you won't, you don't make this, if

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:11):
You, no, you make this as a dev.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:12):
No, no. Not because of, no, sorry. Sorry. Not because of this, although we don't know what the chip is. So what if the chip is the next gen Nuvia? Is that the name of the company they bought Nuvia? Yeah. A Nuvia based chip set. And it's coming out very late in the year because that's when the first samples are happening and it is aimed at developers. It may be a little expensive cuz they're new. But that if, if Nuvia based chip sets do what Qualcomm says, they will do it. It, and not the core, I five nonsense. They talked about two years ago. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but actual core, whatever performance. I don't see any reason why Snapdragon or arm couldn't be a mainstream windows platform, but we just have to let that happen to see I, yeah, looks, I think I've been at the forefront of the stuff we have now does not work <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:16:01):
Arm, arm stuff, you mean?

Paul Thurrott (00:16:02):
Yeah. On windows, right? It just no way, but there's been such an investment. They bought that company, they have this roadmap it's happening, you know, we'll see

Leo Laporte (00:16:13):
The fact that they emphasize stacking, which makes absolutely no sense in a normal

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:18):
Right.

Leo Laporte (00:16:18):
Desktop dev environment, but makes a lot of sense in a network, you know, a network

Paul Thurrott (00:16:23):
Center. Well, because these things could be right. In other words, you develop those things locally on one and then deploy them to some data center cloud.

Leo Laporte (00:16:31):
Right. So that sounds to me like there plans for it and this makes sense with arm. Cause it's a low power mm-hmm <affirmative> processor is in a network environment and that you might put an NPU in there because now, you know, like the tensor chip that Google offers and others and Microsoft does too, don't they have TPUs for Azure. Like that would be something you could offer as a network center.

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:55):
Right. So the diagram they showed that kind of explains at a very, very high level, what they're trying to do. They showed a box with a CPU, GPU MPU, and then the fourth thing that looked like a port was Azure. Right. And they're like, this is what we want you to think about like using the cloud as, as like a processor. Right. And you do some of the processing in the cloud, you do some locally. Right. And then, oh,

Leo Laporte (00:17:19):
That's interesting.

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:20):
That's kind of how they presented it at the three.

Leo Laporte (00:17:23):
So this could be the thin client maybe,

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:25):
Maybe, huh? Maybe.

Leo Laporte (00:17:29):
Oh, that's interesting.

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:30):
Yeah. The best. If you wanna watch something from bill that shows how they think this could work, the Stevie Batist demo. I forget what the session was. We, you saw that yesterday, Paul, right? Like where he's showing the facial recognition running on one of these boxes. Right. And how

Paul Thurrott (00:17:48):
It was the, it was the main one. If you search for windows that has PPE Stevie. Yeah. I think Kevin

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:55):
Gallo.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:56):
Gall. Thank you. Geez. Yep. I think it was that one. It was, that was actually a very good session. If you care about windows, definitely watch that one.

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:03):
They were showing. They were saying, you know, like GE, if you try to build an AI application these days on an existing PC it's so resource constrained. Right. And, and it's just maxing out your GPU. But what if you had a processing unit that had CPU GPU, TPU, and then you could also access Azure as part of the dev environment. This is what it would look like. And then they showed them training a facial recognition model locally and in combination with Azure. Right. And I, I, how much faster it was,

Paul Thurrott (00:18:35):
I keep forgetting the, the number they use, but people who have kind of come up and seen how hardware has evolved. We talk about this, you get a GP and it offloads those activities from the G the CPU, right way back in Longhorn timeframe. When we were talking about hardware, accelerated graphics, that was the story that, you know, this is what was gonna happen. And now that's very common. And now they're talking about doing the same thing, but with an MPU for AI

Leo Laporte (00:18:58):
ML and the Azure and this new Azure compute co processor coprocessor. Right. So, but, so that's interesting. So at this point, the arm chip is really just a controller. It's not gonna be doing a lot of work.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:12):
It's that arch, it's that architecture, right. I think that's the, we call this a hybrid architecture. Now it's just been the arm architecture for a long time. But this notion of, you know, if you think you look at the map of a, like an M one chip and how it's like this, part's the CPU, this is the GPU, this is the MBU mm-hmm <affirmative>, this is the Ram. This is the, you know, it's that's how these things are designed. And 

Mary Jo Foley (00:19:33):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:34):
You know, I, I, I hope it's not just that. I, I feel like that probably is it's the primary purpose of this particular box mm-hmm <affirmative>, but I, I still hold out hope is maybe the wrong word. I, I, I still believe that arm will succeed as a mainstream compute platform on windows. You know, I dart, obviously it succeeded everywhere

Leo Laporte (00:19:54):
Else. I don't think that's any the intent at all. And I think there may be acknowledging that that's not gonna be me too happening, but they're

Paul Thurrott (00:20:01):
Envisioning connected. I know, I

Leo Laporte (00:20:03):
Think they're envisioning a new hybrid different things, a new hybrid form of computing. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:20:09):
So here's the question. So we don't know what the, we don't know what this chip said is, right. So we've talking is that H CX is that this Nuvia thing, it could be something completely different. This could literally be designed for this new workload, this new type of AI type thing. It could just be, you know, not completely unrelated cuz it's arm or whatever, but right. It's just unrelated to the mainstream PC stuff that've been doing so far. I mean it, although it's could be running windows 11 on arm, I mean, it's not, it's not like it's gonna be running some Azure sphere or

Leo Laporte (00:20:37):
Yeah. But it kind of is what I have been thinking all along Microsoft would do, which is basically introduce a thin client. They don't wanna call it a thin client, but a terminal almost for your desktop. Like remember Larry Ellison's think PC. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:20:53):
That the network,

Leo Laporte (00:20:54):
The

Paul Thurrott (00:20:54):
Network call the net network,

Leo Laporte (00:20:56):
Computer, computer. Yeah. And so it, it sits on your desk. It has some compute power, but not mm-hmm, <affirmative> a huge amount enough to draw windows on the screen, that kind of thing. And then it has additional code processing and much of it, it sounds like in the cloud with, is this Azure compute, is this something new?

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:14):
There is a piece that's new on the Azure side.

Paul Thurrott (00:21:17):
Yeah. But it's not a new Azure computer itself is not new. I mean they,

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:19):
No Azure compute is not new as a co

Leo Laporte (00:21:21):
Processor for a desktop PC. Well,

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:24):
Yes, that is new. I believe

Leo Laporte (00:21:26):
So. That's I think that's very interesting. I think, I mean, it's possible maybe I'm giving it too much weight, but it sounds like they're announcing a new PC architecture.

Paul Thurrott (00:21:34):
I don't know. I don't know. I, I, I look the raspberry pie is today more powerful than the NC thing that Larry Ellis thought about the 1990s, you know, we, we have phones that are more powerful. We have far more, you know, everything. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I don't, I, I think the point of any AI based anything these days from a client perspective is that you can do a certain amount of it on the client. It's better when you can interact with that thing in the sky, you know, which in this case is Azure mm-hmm <affirmative>. I think one of the big innovations that occurred in recent years with phones especially is AI happening on the device without any need for connectivity or for the privacy concerns for hitting an online service, whatever. So I don't think this is, I don't think the point of this is like an Azure client per se. I, I, I think that's gonna be an element of it, but I, I, I, I don't, I think you need, this requires

Leo Laporte (00:22:25):
Azure compute because you don't have that much horsepower in the box.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:33):
Well, we don't <laugh> we don't

Leo Laporte (00:22:34):
Know. We don't know. I mean, clearly

Paul Thurrott (00:22:36):
That's the problem. You

Leo Laporte (00:22:36):
Know, the, the thing is the iPhones processor is the same processor. The iPhone twelves processor is the same processor as ZM one. So you have, and which is no one doubts a a, you know, competitive desktop processor. So no one doubts that our arm architecture could be powerful enough. They keep going to Qualcomm. That's the problem. Qualcomm hasn't demonstrated that yet. But what if they, what if they're saying, okay, well we can make windows and arm. Okay. And then with the addition of Azure compute and a GPU and an NPU, they didn't, he say something about Adobe,

Paul Thurrott (00:23:16):
Get sidetracked by this arm thing. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:23:18):
I don't think it's a sidetrack. I feel like this is Microsoft saying, this is where we, you don't think it's a big deal for them that this isn't where they're going.

Paul Thurrott (00:23:26):
No, no. I think this is, this box is I think for, I think Mary Jo is kind of hinted at the not hinted cuz she doesn't know. I mean, I mean, I think she's get, I think she's in the right space, like for what this is for. I just don't think this is the future of arm and windows or windows and arm like it's

Leo Laporte (00:23:41):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:23:41):
Okay. So I think these are two different things. Like I, I, this will be an okay general purpose computer. Probably. We don't know what this,

Leo Laporte (00:23:48):
But it's not intended for that at all.

Mary Jo Foley (00:23:51):
It's a dev well, okay. So I wait, I saw rich Turner or somebody from Microsoft say yesterday on TWiTtter, all devs will be interested in the power of this box. You won't be disappointed. So I don't know if they're gonna like position it as a dev box in general. Right?

Leo Laporte (00:24:07):
Huh? That's interest. That's really interesting.

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:10):
I don't know. Okay. 

Leo Laporte (00:24:12):
There's how do you think it

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:12):
Runs list? You don't know. There's more things we don't know then now, so here here's the thing you were asking about, Leo's it, it's not Azure compute that's new. They talked about this thing called the Azure execution provider in Onyx, which has to do with a neural network run time. Right? So they're, they're connecting the stuff happening on the client through this pattern. They're calling hybrid loop up to the Azure through this new Azure execution provider in Onyx. So it's not something like a new, a new piece of Azure.

Leo Laporte (00:24:42):
No, but what they, what they described is using Adobe for instance. Yeah. And it's AI capability. It's what do they call it? Smart sum. So you're running Adobe, you're running Photoshop on this thing. Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but as soon as you need AI powered something, it connects with the Azure component or this was unclear. Sounded like maybe the Azure components used for training and then you download it. But when that, if that's the case, you don't need to ever be connected to Azure because you ship the training models.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:14):
Right. I think the, the nice justification they made for this involved, the MPU itself, right. They were talking can get the number wrong. But if we had to do the, they were saying, if we had to do this AI, whatever it was, maybe it was the facial recognition thing against the CPU. It would have pegged,

Leo Laporte (00:25:29):
Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:30):
The CPU. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:25:31):
And

Paul Thurrott (00:25:32):
That would've generated heat, everything would've slowed down. It would've been horrible. We do this against the MPU. It is a single digit percentage. Nothing. You don't even notice it's happening.

Leo Laporte (00:25:41):
Right. So analogous to a GPU, right. This is the new exactly. Third chip. That's gonna, you know, GPU's come with all computers now the, and then they say, NPUs will come with all computers now. Right. That's independent of arm, right. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:54):
Right. They're saying NPUs for whatever processor, right. At some point will be on all computers. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:26:02):
Yep. Which means Intel must be working on that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:05):
Yeah. They're hinting. Like this is not just an arm thing. Like this is coming to Intel too. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:10):
It's arm it's here now an arm. I that's, it is maybe

Leo Laporte (00:26:13):
The point of this. Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and then, so really the Azures for developers, they're gonna use, they're gonna use that to train models, load the models. And then when you ship the software, you ship with the model and the end user doesn't have to go out of the computer. They've already,

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:29):
Like, they're saying

Paul Thurrott (00:26:30):
Bit more detail than Microsoft has.

Leo Laporte (00:26:31):
The, the NPU can

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:32):
Read that. Read

Leo Laporte (00:26:34):
The, yeah. Influencing this you're re the NPU is needed to understand and read and use the models. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, so maybe the Azure component is just a part of the developer kit and not of all computers going forward.

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:47):
Yeah. I think that sense. I think you're right. At some day they want it to be, you're always cloud connected or some of the pressing happens in the cloud. I,

Leo Laporte (00:26:54):
I just keep, I know I'm wrong, but I keep thinking that this is where windows is headed.

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:59):
It is, but you know what? It's far away, like, remember 10 X, 10 X was gonna virtualize all parts of the operating system. They couldn't pull it off. They couldn't

Leo Laporte (00:27:06):
Do it. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:07):
<Laugh> and so they that's their goal. I think that's still like, they're ideal. But instead now they're trying different ways like windows 365 connected to windows 11, like, and some things happen in the cloud and something's happen locally. Yeah. They're trying that, I think instead, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:27:22):
Yeah. I think this whole, a lot of, I, I sort of, we talked about this a little bit yesterday, this notion of virtualization containerization that there's some future here for windows, you know, where, like you said, maybe some of it's in the cloud, some of it's on some local machine, if windows 10 X, it happened, there's your lightweight operating system that, you know, maybe they clearly have been thinking about, they showed it. We tested it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:27:46):
Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (00:27:46):
<Affirmative> you know, it was a thing. This was not just like an idea someone had in a room somewhere. Like they created something. It didn't come through. Yeah. So we get the UI and windows 11 now, and there's, you know, there's some connection between Microsoft or windows 365 and windows 11 that's whatever. It's not the same thing, but

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:06):
No.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:07):
Yeah. Maybe we maybe step our way to that thing that they've been trying to do for a long time. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:28:11):
Yeah. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:13):
Maybe,

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:15):
Maybe if

Leo Laporte (00:28:15):
You, the thing is, if you roll something like this out at build, gosh, they really ought to give us a more clear explanation. I know what

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:23):
They, well, they're trying to, they're trying to build momentum cuz they keep saying later this year, we're gonna tell you everything else. Like this is just showing you the thinking. Yeah. But

Leo Laporte (00:28:29):
Don't get us speculating because inevitably 90% of the speculation will be wrong. It will. And then we'll be disappointed when we don't get the thing that we, we thought

Paul Thurrott (00:28:37):
We might be. Yeah, look, we can't defend what they did other than to say build is what it is. It's not from the very beginning, but several years now it's been this time of year.

Leo Laporte (00:28:46):
Right. And they weren't ready. They're

Paul Thurrott (00:28:47):
Under a lot of pressure with the M one step apple Silicon to respond in some way. And I think this is a way of saying, Hey look, we're responding. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:28:55):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, it's interesting how the industry, how Intel has its 12th gen with efficiency, cores and, and Microsoft supply. The industry really was, seems like taken aback by what apple Silicon did and is, I don't think anyone

Paul Thurrott (00:29:09):
Scrambling because apple is a, the hyperbolic or hyperbolic <laugh> whatever you say, company. And this time the reality matched <laugh> the promise. Yeah. And I think everyone was taken aback by that. It was just like, wait, what? They did it. I

Leo Laporte (00:29:26):
Actually have started with a little contrarian point of view, which is mm-hmm <affirmative> they got this big boost. They're gonna have to manage expectations cuz with M two M three, you're gonna expect an equivalent boost. And I think you're really only gonna see now you

Paul Thurrott (00:29:43):
See two X, three X

Leo Laporte (00:29:44):
Go. You're not gonna see that at all. You're gonna see 10%, 20%. And I, so I think that they have a little bit of an issue and we'll see it, their

Paul Thurrott (00:29:52):
We've seen how they did it. Right. They had to double up the dye. Yeah. They, they, they, they never had to do anything like that with the a series chips. Right. So a series every year they could count on something like, oh the ML, this year is 50% or five 50 X faster.

Leo Laporte (00:30:05):
A 15 is only about 10 say percent faster. Yeah. Depends on. Don't

Paul Thurrott (00:30:09):
Slow down. 14. It's matured. And

Leo Laporte (00:30:10):
Yeah. So they're gonna have a little bit of an issue. I think there, I mean, God knows they've got a big jump here where there's still lacking as in GPU and and because they did this, they eliminated Invidia and AMD from the mix. So it's, you know, I think that all the good stuff from M one has happened. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:32):
Interesting.

Leo Laporte (00:30:32):
And so it's interesting to watch the scramble.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:35):
I can tell you all the good stuff on windows and arm has yet to happen. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:30:39):
So

Paul Thurrott (00:30:39):
Right.

Leo Laporte (00:30:40):
<Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:30:40):
Right. We'll see. We'll

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:41):
See where to go, but up right.

Leo Laporte (00:30:43):
People are scrambling for sure. That's it very interesting. All right. So anyway, that's project, Volera the dev box. Yeah. No price, no known availability, no known processor. No,

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:53):
Just

Leo Laporte (00:30:54):
This fall. You think

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:56):
Later this year,

Leo Laporte (00:30:57):
Later this year, December 31st midnight. Yeah. <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:31:02):
I, in, in my gut, I have to think this thing is either literally that NextGen chip or they're counting on this data center. Well, I guess we'll call it cloud rack thing and you have one of these on your desk and it's just AI workloads. And, but when it becomes AI workloads, what are we talking about?

Leo Laporte (00:31:18):
And then it's not for all developers by any means.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:21):
No, not at all. I mean, this is very esoteric. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> that that's

Leo Laporte (00:31:26):
If they said all, if rich Turner says all developers, then there's gotta be

Mary Jo Foley (00:31:30):
Well, something. So the other part of this announcement, we didn't really dwell on much is they're doing native versions of all their dev tools for arm 64.

Leo Laporte (00:31:39):
That's huge. Including right. Visual studio. That's huge.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:42):
Yeah. It's not just the developer tools. So it's visual studio, but also right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:31:47):
WSL, right. Plus

Paul Thurrott (00:31:48):
Plus

Leo Laporte (00:31:49):
WSL really framework. Yeah. Interesting.

Mary Jo Foley (00:31:52):
Yep. Yeah. So if that is the case, which it is, they, they said that also coming later this year, then this could be a general purpose workstation, if you say, okay, run these dev tools on this. If you don't care about AI, you can still benefit from running arm 64 dev tools on this thing.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:10):
Yeah. But <laugh> so, but, but what are you doing on that thing? I mean, unless it's literally AI workloads or this thing that's specific farm, right? The majority, why would you, 100% of your market is Intel or you know, X 86. Why on earth? Would you ever do that

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:27):
On an arm box? I know, I know. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:30):
You know,

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:30):
Agree.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:32):
The one thing Mary Jo and I were talking about before we started recording was this notion that you're a developer and you it's a checkbox in visual studio. You can create an application. We'll say it's using the windows app SDK and win I three with a modern app, new app, like no one ever really does, but let's pretend and you can target X 86 and well X 64. You can target arm 64. Great. Now, if it's a big deal, unless it's a little silly utility, I mean, you gotta want to test that thing on hardware. Right. And there really isn't a lot of hardware to test it on. You could get a prox, which is about a thousand bucks of service prox. And maybe a handful. I know like an HP elite folio for example, is probably over a thousand bucks. You know, it makes it a little prohibitive. There are no nice inexpensive arm tablets. So maybe this thing fills that gap. And, but it has to be more than that. Right? You you're buying a computer literally just to test your one app on this one platform. And you're like, yeah, it runs great. Okay, fine.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:38):
Yeah, but when you think about the reverse, if you were on arm as a developer, which would be insane at this point in windows 99 point something percent of your customers are gonna be running it on Intel. You have to have to run it on those, those machines. It would be silly to just develop it on an Intel machine. Or I keep saying Intel, but an X 64 computer of any kind am B or Intel

Leo Laporte (00:33:59):
Right

Paul Thurrott (00:34:00):
Today. Yep. Yeah. Maybe that changes

Leo Laporte (00:34:06):
Maybe. Well, they gave us a lot to talk about, so I'm glad <laugh>, I'm glad for that. Well, I more build conversation coming up in just a little bit, but first I wanna talk about our sponsor or for this segment of windows weekly, it pro TV. We love it. Pro TV. We talk about all the time, how great it would be for you. If you're interested in getting a job an it, or if you're an it professional wants to keep your skills up, get new skills re-certify but let's not forget it pro TV's great for it teams as well. They have a great teams platform, just like an individual, your it team needs skills and knowledge. This time though, is to make you sure your business continues successfully with it pro TV. You're giving them something they will love. They will use. They will learn from it's engaging the it pro TV entertainers are professionals in the field, but their passion for it is so great that it, it makes it engaging and fun and you wanna participate.

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Mary Jo Foley (00:38:17):
Oh, wait, we have to talk dev box before

Leo Laporte (00:38:19):
We go. I thought that was the dev box.

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:21):
That's a dev kit. What about the

Leo Laporte (00:38:24):
Dev box? What's the dev box? Well, Leo pay attention. I'm confused. <Laugh> I thought it was what's that? What is that? They're both Deb boxes. Really? Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:33):
Yeah, they are.

Leo Laporte (00:38:34):
So that

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:35):
The box, this is the one I think you might like this is running a developer workstation on Azure virtual desktop.

Leo Laporte (00:38:45):
Oh, okay. In the cloud. So I could do it in a Chromebook or a Mac or whatever you

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:50):
Could. Yeah. Yes, you could.

Leo Laporte (00:38:51):
Nice.

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:53):
So the idea is Microsoft will set it up for you and have everything you need all ready in a VM in the cloud. And they haven't, again, haven't told us pricing, but you as a dev would just be able to automatically start working on your code in these different VMs that are hosted on Azure, actual desktop. Neat.

Leo Laporte (00:39:11):
Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:13):
How much? So the big, yeah, that we don't know. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:39:16):
No one knows. No one knows a big

Paul Thurrott (00:39:19):
<Laugh>. So I like, I like that you cut to the heart of the matter in each topic though. Yeah. yeah. We don't know. We really don't know. This is interesting because it's it will work for game developers apparently, which is wow. Why game developers? So you could

Leo Laporte (00:39:35):
Do Xbox obviously on it.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:37):
Yeah. Or yeah. Or at least PC games. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:39:41):
Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (00:39:41):
<Affirmative> so, yeah. Interesting. It's just a preconfigured VM, I guess the big deal here is it spins up pretty quick and you can just plug in what you want also it's manageable through Intune and Microsoft's other 

Leo Laporte (00:39:54):
AAD based. So what do you think what's the market for this

Paul Thurrott (00:39:59):
Big businesses with lots of developers

Leo Laporte (00:40:01):
They don't, and they don't wanna set 'em up with their own hardware and just,

Paul Thurrott (00:40:04):
Well, they're gonna be set up with their own hardware, but maybe they have to test it against, or, or they can know whatever they're doing. Maybe they're rendering levels or something in some 3d game. And it's just faster to do this in the cloud because right. They can spend that hard to properly easily.

Mary Jo Foley (00:40:18):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:40:19):
Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:20):
I guess it, it kind of democratizes software development in the sense that you could just be running it on an ultra book and hitting all your, you know, all the hardwares in the cloud, you could do it

Leo Laporte (00:40:30):
Anywhere. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> right. Most, I mean, if you have a team time is of the essence, you're gonna give that team. At least I know this from our experience, you're gonna give that team as much hardware as you can so that mm-hmm <affirmative> they can code and compile and yeah. Do that fast.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:50):
This came up yesterday. I was thinking back to the origins of cloud computing and the big, you know, how do you sell people on this? They're like, all right, area, listen, you're like a retailer and you're busy for like three weeks in December, the rest of the year, you just see didn't even keel. Right? So in the past you used to have to buy all this hardware and just keep it sitting there all year long, consuming energy, doing nothing. Now you can fire it up as you need it. And you could, you could actually apply that to so many different things. And you think about software development just to use my one stupid example. You're rendering levels for a game. You're not render rendering those levels every single day. Right. So you don't have to buy that harder and leave it sitting around. You can spin it up virtually when you need it. Okay.

Leo Laporte (00:41:30):
Okay. So, you know, yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:34):
I'm just, I feel like I'm selling

Leo Laporte (00:41:35):
It. Yeah, you are. So you're doing a good job.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:37):
It's my it's my understanding is what I should say. I think that's, that's the

Leo Laporte (00:41:41):
Idea I see, to me, the, the real virtual of windows in the cloud is for like first line people and, and, you know, yeah. Lesser users, not power users, lesser users lesser.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:54):
Well, I, no, I, I, so that's one use, right? I mean, I think, I think Microsoft is trying to expand yeah. Number of scenarios

Leo Laporte (00:42:02):
For you, but power users want power, but I guess if you can make the case that there is more power rendering in the cloud, then okay. That's

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:08):
Their case, right. They're saying you could, yeah. You could go buy the most expensive workstation to develop something really high end or why not use cheaper hardware and develop it in the cloud

Leo Laporte (00:42:18):
Because developers, I know we're making hundreds of dollars an hour and you don't wanna waste. It's like someone time. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:23):
I just wanna use an iPad. Pro could I, could I just have my thing in the cloud and who cares?

Leo Laporte (00:42:29):
I guess?

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:30):
Okay. Chromebook Chromebook.

Leo Laporte (00:42:31):
Maybe. No, no dev wants to use a Chromebook. I mean, right. And you don't want your devs using Chromebooks.

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:37):
I know I'm being facetious.

Leo Laporte (00:42:39):
You give, you wanna give them, you know,

Paul Thurrott (00:42:42):
A Chromebook, you do visual studio code. It runs Linux. I mean, yeah, you could, there are certain,

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:48):
It depends what you're running. You know, what, what it's all gonna depend on is pricing. Cuz Azure ritual, desktop by itself is not cheap. Right. It's very expensive. So

Leo Laporte (00:42:57):
Yeah. Oh,

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:58):
Maybe damage is costed.

Leo Laporte (00:42:59):
Maybe the idea is hybrid work because you've got developers all over the place. That's right. Yeah. So maybe

Paul Thurrott (00:43:06):
Back and forth between an office and home

Leo Laporte (00:43:08):
Maybe. Yeah. And that's the advantage is that they can collaborate and work together in your cloud wherever they are and yeah. And they have the same setup everywhere they go. And maybe that's, maybe this is about hybrid. Did they talk a lot about hybrid during the 

Paul Thurrott (00:43:23):
I think the word hybrid came up 1.1 million times yesterday.

Leo Laporte (00:43:26):
Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:26):
Exactly. That's what I <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:43:28):
So yeah, they did, they did mention

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:30):
Hybrid. Everything was hybrid hybrid compute hybrid work.

Leo Laporte (00:43:33):
That's the new challenge, you know, it

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:34):
Is right.

Leo Laporte (00:43:35):
Yeah. And it's kind of unexpected and I think it's here for the long run, so yeah, I think so it's reasonable to kind of approach it. All right. Can we talk

Paul Thurrott (00:43:44):
You little work from home phase? We'll call that the puberty of the

Leo Laporte (00:43:47):
Situation <laugh> exactly on hybrid. Exactly. Yeah. Alright. Can we talk about adaptive cards now? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:57):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:58):
You're gonna like this one, Jay. Leo, cuz it's J

Leo Laporte (00:44:02):
Oh, you know, J and I go way back. <Laugh> Jason and bur baby.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:07):
So for people in the windows space you'll know that there have been many initiatives to bring like, like little web based UI elements to windows. Right. So there's active desktop back in late 1990s. We had the sidebar in windows Vista and briefly in XP as well. And windows suddenly got rid of the sidebar, but they kept those things, which I think were called gadgets, not widgets if I remember correctly. Mm. But they would be on the desktop, you know? And now there is this new technology called adaptive cards, which is how widgets in windows 11 are built. And interestingly, it's gonna be, I don't know if it's the way, but a way, right. That loop components will be built. Do you know if that's the only way or is it a way

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:52):
I don't know. That came outta nowhere. Yeah. Like Microsoft, didn't talk a lot about loop at this event, but they're like, oh, but by the way, you can build apps, your own loops using adaptive cards, like, wait, where did this come from?

Paul Thurrott (00:45:03):
Yeah. Like, wait, what?

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:05):
So

Paul Thurrott (00:45:05):
That's, it's interesting to me that those two things are the same thing. Yeah. You know, apple guys will remember the, I guess they called 'em widgets. So they had maim back and they go to a screen and they had those little web based widget things. Right. I think they were called widgets. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> that's what these are. I mean, well, that's not what they are, but this is kind of the modern version of that. They obviously adjacent, you are connecting to backend services. So you might have, you know, simple things like weather data or money conversion or whatever it is, you know, but I, I was kind of fascinated to find out that widgets, which I can't stand and loop components, which I'm very interested in are apparently both gonna be built using the same underlying technology. Yeah. Yep. And yeah. So there it is. And I guess this stuff is compatible with every platform on earth. There there's an adaptive cards website mm-hmm <affirmative> and you can build these things and they run an Android, iOS and Chromebook, and they run on the web and they run a Mac and windows and Linux. And they're, they're just totally cross platform. I, I never heard this term before in my life until a few days ago.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:10):
I think you have to build something now with adaptive cards, Paul.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I could, we can do it. Frank suggested <laugh> which was created a Paul Thurrott bot <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:21):
That could <laugh> yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:24):
Oh man.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:25):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:27):
Just to deliver the news slightly sarcastically. I dunno.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:31):
<Laugh> should we just keep running through build?

Paul Thurrott (00:46:35):
Sure.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:36):
This

Paul Thurrott (00:46:36):
Will be cool. Intelligent data platform is all you <laugh>.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:39):
We it's all me that way. Yeah. So there were quite a few announcements about databases, analytics, governance at build and the way they pulled all these things together was they said, by the way, we're creating yet another new Microsoft platform it's called the intelligent data platform. And I was like, oh man, my eyes started blazing over <laugh> yep. <Laugh> here we go. Another platform. Right. But this is kind of interesting because it encompasses everything that comes from the data group at Microsoft. Right. So anything that's like SQL server, Azure SQL Azure synapse analytics, right? Not the graph. No. Oh, not the graph. Oh, not the graph. Geez. Nope. The co plastic, everything, but the graph Cosmo DB.

Paul Thurrott (00:47:27):
Oh, this literal date. Oh, you're talking literal like

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:29):
End point like data base. Yeah. <laugh> yeah. Okay. Yep. And if you think about it, Satya always talks about data estates. You know, the, how data is the new oil, all those metaphors we have for how developers need to be thinking about adding data, adding the ability to analyze things quickly, using analytics products right into your app. And the missing piece was the governance piece. So, you know, Microsoft just rebranded all their compliance and governance products as purview a couple months ago. So now, so now in this platform, you've got the databases, you've got the analytics products, including power BI, and you've got the governance so that if you are developing an application that uses any of these things, you'll be able to make sure you are building something that will be compliant and will make your chief data officers very happy. So yeah, <laugh>, that's that's data platform, Microsoft intelligent data platform in a nutshell, how's that?

Leo Laporte (00:48:29):
Oh, sorry. I fell asleep. What?

Mary Jo Foley (00:48:31):
<Laugh> Leo just like walked off and disappeared data,

Leo Laporte (00:48:34):
Data, data, data.

Mary Jo Foley (00:48:35):
I know it's important, but it's not the most exciting thing in the world.

Leo Laporte (00:48:38):
It is important. It is. Let's let's not forget it is.

Mary Jo Foley (00:48:42):
I it's really not. It's really not something you can just gloss over, although we just did,

Leo Laporte (00:48:48):
Although we just over it. Yeah. Let's please over it. Let's gloss

Paul Thurrott (00:48:51):
It. I beg to differ. I think we can gloss over it. <Laugh> yeah. So there were a bunch of power platform announcements at the show, which this

Leo Laporte (00:49:01):
Is great. That no code low code thing of Maji mm-hmm <affirmative>

Paul Thurrott (00:49:04):
Yeah, yeah. And there's a bunch to this and they, they pulled something called power pages out of power apps. And this, I think it used to be called power apps, portal or portals, I guess,

Leo Laporte (00:49:14):
Are people using this stuff?

Paul Thurrott (00:49:17):
Well, that's a good question. Yeah. So

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:21):
Power platform. They are, but power apps, portals, I don't know.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:24):
Yeah. Maybe not. Well, this is kind of new. This is like for designing business websites, but the, a lot of what they're doing here is like AI based. So they're taking these capabilities or they're adding capabilities to the power platform where you can say, Hey, I have this drawing of something that I think would make a nice app, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and it will actually,

Leo Laporte (00:49:41):
That was a weird example that they gave. Yeah. You draw it on an app and you, and they go, okay, good. We'll turn that into an app.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:47):
Now you but least I understand you didn't just build an app. Right. What you built was an app. You,

Leo Laporte (00:49:52):
You made a front end. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:53):
Right, right. But the point of this, like the point of power in this case, power apps, I guess, is you are, you've constructed a UI. Like if you're a developer, like if you're doing like a.net app, like the apps I've created, like a lot of what you're doing is connecting UI and then events that can occur with that UI to some block of code. So someone clicks a button and something happens, someone clicks a menu, something happens, someone clicks in a text box, something happens, you know, that kind of thing. And a power automate or should say power apps rather kind of works the same way. I mean, it's just that you, you have this visual thing and you're like, well, what do you want to put here? And you connect it to a backend data source or

Leo Laporte (00:50:32):
Whatever. This is visual basic. Yes. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:35):
It

Leo Laporte (00:50:35):
Is. It is. I mean, that's what visual basic you would draw, you would draw the that's right. Components. Yep. And then you'd say, okay. And when you push that button that does this and you'd write some code.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:44):
I honestly, that was always super powerful. Right? Yeah. I mean, and I think I, you know, I, I kind of compare this to what they had done with power shell back in the day, which is still around. Right. So power shell is, is a command line environment that is designed for automation. You can, instead of adding one new user or something to a

Leo Laporte (00:51:00):
Domain, oh, power, Shell's huge. Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (00:51:03):
<Affirmative> but power shell is, I thought, I reremember, this is 20 years ago now, but I re I remember being confronted with PowerShell back when it was still called Mo ad right back before it was out and thinking, you know, it was.net base, which as a developer, I kind of thought was cool, but I was like, I don't know how a, I don't know hows are gonna respond to this. Right. Because this isn't really in their warehouse, at least some of them. And you know, I think it, it, you know, it's a learning curve. And I think with this, what they're trying to do is bring a similar automation capability, but to end users like just average users. And I think for a lot of those people, that's scary and it seems impossible. And how I can't program, how am I gonna do this?

Paul Thurrott (00:51:38):
And I, I think the visual stuff helps get them over that hump. Right. I think that's kind of the point. So, you know, power automate is built into windows. Now it's part of windows as sort of a end user automation tool. Like I got an email from someone important, do this thing or whatever you know, power apps, power pages now, power virtual agent, which is, I mean, I'm interested in it. I, I don't, this is the thing, actually that Frank was talking about, you know, you can create like a, a bot, it's kind of like, you're creating a, like a, an Infocom game, right. You're basically, mm-hmm, <affirmative> plotting out possible things that people can say and what your response will be to those things. You know, that type of thing.

Leo Laporte (00:52:17):
Programmers always hate. I mean, I'll speak for myself as a programmer. <Laugh> I always hate these things because yeah. But it's but so I think what Microsoft's goal is, and they've done it in the past, they did it with basic. That was how they started that it with VB the idea they even do it with Excel is to take for normal people who have some repetitive tasks to somehow make it a little easier for them. Right. To get stuff done. Yeah. programmers hate it, cuz it's a different paradigm. And it's like, I that's confusing to me. You know, I don't, well, the other citizen developers, citizen developers, I like that. That's good.

Paul Thurrott (00:52:56):
But an average user's gonna get in over their head and say, I just

Leo Laporte (00:52:59):
Can't quickly last you're gonna need a developer. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:02):
And then you're gonna have to hand it to a

Leo Laporte (00:53:03):
Developer and the developer's gonna go, oh God, what is it? What are you doing exactly the square. Does

Paul Thurrott (00:53:08):
It go in the circle?

Leo Laporte (00:53:09):
What are you doing? Yeah. The developer basically it's a spec. And now you start from scratch you I think.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:16):
Yeah. Maybe.

Leo Laporte (00:53:17):
Yeah. Maybe, maybe not. I don't

Paul Thurrott (00:53:18):
Know. Anyway, but, but the point of, I think a lot of the advances they announced was using AI to get over that last.

Leo Laporte (00:53:24):
Right? Right. No, it's this has been the holy grail forever. Yeah. There's

Paul Thurrott (00:53:28):
A co-pilot feature in GitHub. Leo, have you seen this?

Leo Laporte (00:53:31):
Actually? That's so weird.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:32):
Like white code

Leo Laporte (00:53:33):
For you. Yes it is. So it's very problematic for a variety of,

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:37):
But when generally available, it's gonna be generally available very soon. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:53:41):
Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:42):
Yeah. Okay. Crazy. People are interested in it. They're intrigued. They're afraid and intrigued both.

Leo Laporte (00:53:48):
Well, a lot of people in the, in the open source community are saying, it's just stealing code from our public GI GitHub pages. They better not steal code from my public GitHub page. They'll be very sorry. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:53:58):
Well, I was gonna say they they're welcome to mine, but that's not the decision I would make. You know, you take it if you want.

Leo Laporte (00:54:06):
Yeah, go ahead. Have it. Yeah. It's an interesting idea. I mean it really, what it is is they notice that every, every developer cuts and pastes from us from stack exchanges. So might as well just automate the process. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:21):
Really? I was a kid. I used to sit there with like a run magazine and type it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:54:24):
Type it in me too.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:25):
Yeah. Just type in, it wasn't even software code. It was just codes and it would you'd

Leo Laporte (00:54:29):
Magically turn into something. Yeah. Yeah. It was just hacks probably. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:33):
Yeah. I think it was hacks actually. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:54:37):
Yeah. I, I would say you'd want to discourage that behavior, to be honest with you. <Laugh> probably better to write code. You understand what it's doing?

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:45):
It's called AI pair programming. So it's all okay.

Leo Laporte (00:54:48):
Right. Yeah. And it's been the holy grail forever. Right? We've always talked about computers, writing their own code. Yeah. And you

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:53):
Know, helping you out, not replacing you, not

Leo Laporte (00:54:55):
Replacing, if you could develop an AI that could write itself, then it would, it could iterate and iterate faster than a human and pretty. You'd have a kind of artificial. You'd have Skynet. There

Paul Thurrott (00:55:06):
You go. You'd have Skynet.

Leo Laporte (00:55:08):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> okay. So thank you Microsoft for pushing us one

Paul Thurrott (00:55:11):
Step. It's not like those movies are dystopian. That would be fun.

Leo Laporte (00:55:17):
Paul's little head on the on the on the notion has moved ahead. Passed. You

Paul Thurrott (00:55:26):
Saw, okay. Skip pass. I see that. I see that too. That's not me.

Leo Laporte (00:55:30):
Oh, well who was the,

Paul Thurrott (00:55:31):
Before? There were two little faces in there and I don't know.

Leo Laporte (00:55:34):
So there's a, we got a little you know, a little M little M so now know that Mary Jo wants to do this.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:40):
Wait, you just made disappear. It's gone over there. It's

Leo Laporte (00:55:43):
But your head was on net Maui, Paul and I thought, oh, he's trying to skip the teams section.

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:50):
We should mention the teams quick.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:51):
Let's move it right down. Xbox done. Xbox

Leo Laporte (00:55:53):
<Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:55):
The teams. One is kind of interesting too. I thought,

Leo Laporte (00:55:58):
All right.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:58):
Follow, bouncing head.

Leo Laporte (00:56:00):
I know. That's what I was doing. Does he want me to skip teams? How

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:03):
It's like giving you a cue? Like where are we? I don't know what I'm going. The beer pick. I'm

Leo Laporte (00:56:07):
Going down to the beer. I, I hope loop is as good as notion, but I, I I'm loving notion. I just think it's so fun. So

Paul Thurrott (00:56:14):
I like notion too, but the, the offline thing,

Leo Laporte (00:56:17):
You know? Yeah. Well maybe loop will have some offline capabilities.

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:20):
Well, okay. I'll tell you something about the loop app, which both Paul and I thought would debut probably at build. Right? It's not ready yet. It's not ready yet. It's okay. They get good. Yeah. They're like, it's coming later. Like this isn't where we're gonna show that off. And like you said, like loop components, they talked very limitedly about that too. Right? Like just said, okay, you, you can use adaptive cards. The other piece of the loop related stuff that was having to do with teams was this new feature there introducing to teams called live share, and live share, and teams. So there's already something called live share and visual studio. This is not the same thing, even though they're both called live share. Right. That's

Paul Thurrott (00:56:59):
Because

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:59):
It's Microsoft. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. This live share in teams is based on fluid framework. Fluid framework is the stuff that underlies loop. Right. right. So if you think about it, you're in a team's meeting, you're collaborating on something together, say a document, a diagram. You really can't actually like you could both like look at it together, but you couldn't really work on it together. All

Paul Thurrott (00:57:23):
You could do is you can share your screen is what you can do. Right, right, right. So someone would bring up the application and everyone else would watch.

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:31):
Right. Which is

Paul Thurrott (00:57:32):
Not the same. It's a form of collaboration, but it's not. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:35):
Yeah. Not really though. Right. So this team's live share is gonna let you actually more naturally collaborate together inside of a meeting or an inside of an app and do things in conjunction.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:48):
Yeah. So you actually have an app, like third party app. Yeah. I don't remember the example they use, but it wasn't a Microsoft app, but

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:53):
No, it was just thing that this picture is here. Yeah. there's a picture on my post that I forget who the vendor is, who did this, but they're showing like people working together on a design of like some kind of a, I don't know what that thing is.

Leo Laporte (00:58:06):
That's a jet engine.

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:07):
Hmm. Jet engine. But those,

Paul Thurrott (00:58:09):
But those are all those colored things are all people, the different people. And they can each work on different parts of

Leo Laporte (00:58:14):
It's it's like blind men in the elephant. They all have a difference.

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:17):
<Laugh> right. Yep. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:58:20):
But it remain the turbines in front it's in back. Yeah. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:25):
That's interesting. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:27):
It is. Yeah. It's like they is this really

Leo Laporte (00:58:28):
How you wanna work?

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:30):
You know, it's funny.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:31):
So I asked, ask the same question and the answer is no, but this is the hybrid world thing, right? This is the

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:37):
Points

Leo Laporte (00:58:37):
Is how you are working. You may not want it, but this is how

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:39):
You're gonna, we said this on the feed yesterday. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> like already teams is a collaboration environment. How can you make it even more collaborative? This is how you do it. You add something like this live share thing.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:50):
It is how you can make it more collaborative, go to the same room. <Laugh> you know, Hey, Hey,

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:54):
That would like, you're talking crazy here, man. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:58:56):
No, it makes it really though. What you're really on is a conference call. And you, as in any conference call, you share a screen in this case. Right. You share an image and then people can noodle on it

Paul Thurrott (00:59:06):
All in, but you're all in teams and you're working on it in your teams and they're working on it in their teams. Yeah. And it's in, it's informing the same thing.

Leo Laporte (00:59:14):
Yeah. But I mean, you probably can't do more than point at annotate. Right. I mean, you're

Paul Thurrott (00:59:19):
Not, I don't know. It looked like, I don't know. I

Mary Jo Foley (00:59:21):
Mean, it said cocreate co co collaborate. Yeah. But look at the co annotate.

Leo Laporte (00:59:27):
You gotta pencil <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:59:30):
No, I bet. I bet it's like whiteboard, right? This, I mean whiteboard

Paul Thurrott (00:59:32):
This specific app. I mean, whatever this is, but okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:59:35):
No, like white board something

Paul Thurrott (00:59:36):
Simple, like a document. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:59:37):
Right. And notice, by the way, you still have to request control. So it's still one at a time. Yeah. I, yeah. Okay. You know? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:47):
I

Mary Jo Foley (00:59:47):
Don't know. Yeah. I mean, okay. You know, when you're in a meeting and everyone's talking over you, like on windows weekly, you know, network sometimes what? This is trying to prevent that by getting, letting people go in turn, should we

Paul Thurrott (00:59:58):
I don't know that the control is what you think it is. I think that might be the primary view that everyone sees. Who's not working on it. I think I do believe this is real, real time collaboration. Like I think people can work on it at the same time. That's what they showed.

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:13):
Yeah. They did show that they did. I think, I think it's like whiteboard. Right. You know, when they showed notion the notion app, the whiteboard app, they show people like interacting simultaneously together on a single document or a single diagram. Right?

Paul Thurrott (01:00:30):
Yeah. And by the way, wait

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:31):
Framework,

Paul Thurrott (01:00:31):
We've done like 12 of these shows. Now we have never had a single issue.

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:36):
I know we have

Paul Thurrott (01:00:36):
Collaborating on one of these things ever. Not once

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:38):
We have not <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:00:40):
We

Paul Thurrott (01:00:40):
Have not, we have this M thing popping up. I don't know what the heck that is. But other than that, I mean, it's haunted, but you know what? It's getting the job done.

Leo Laporte (01:00:47):
No works great.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:48):
We might need to have an Exorcist step in to fix this,

Leo Laporte (01:00:51):
By the way. That's the reason that you have to do it in the cloud, Paul. I mean, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise you're gonna have incompatible merges and you're gonna have, somebody's gonna win. And someone's

Paul Thurrott (01:01:01):
Going every, every week, Leo, that's what we had

Leo Laporte (01:01:03):
Incompatible merges conflict.

Paul Thurrott (01:01:07):
I want something that resolves

Leo Laporte (01:01:08):
Conflict that's because makes yeah. But that's cuz one note was offline. Right? You could work on it offline and then, or no, no.

Mary Jo Foley (01:01:15):
We were working online and that was it still had conference screwed up. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:01:19):
Terrible. Well, I'm glad not notion's working. I look at least loop will have to work as well as notion.

Paul Thurrott (01:01:25):
I think so. Right. I hope so. Yeah. That's counting on it.

Mary Jo Foley (01:01:28):
Yeah. Let's hope. Let's hope. Yep. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:01:32):
Let's talk Maui.

Paul Thurrott (01:01:34):
Yeah. So as long promised and expected dot net Maui, which God, this, the multiplatform app user interface, right? The Samin forms basically is generally available. Oddly, it still requires a preview version of visual studio. I think sometime later in this year that's gonna change. So you have to run that kind of side by side with the normal version. I don't know that there was a lot of news there beyond that being the case. So that was expected. No, no surprise there. Back in February, March or something Microsoft started talking about the windows app, SDK 1.1. This is the former project reunion. I was in a session yesterday and I actually asked about this, cause I thought it was gonna ship this week and it's supposed to ship today, which is why it's in the notes to this, to the start of the show. I hadn't seen it. So anytime now 1.1 should be out. What does that entail? I honestly, I have no idea. So there are new features coming, new capabilities, et cetera, but I, you know, they have announced it.

Leo Laporte (01:02:37):
So will you start doing some stuff with it?

Paul Thurrott (01:02:41):
Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was actually when was this? I was just playing with it. Yeah, I think so. One of the things, okay. I should say one of the things they did show off is one, one, the, this is the taking UWP technologies, decoupling them from a specific version of windows 10 are now 11 making them broadly available to any supported version of windows. And then adding all those new wind UI three capabilities, which is the stuff that makes windows 11 look like windows 11. Right. So and the thing you create is a desktop app. It's not a, a mobile app. Okay, cool. And I like this idea, but man, it's, it's hard to get started. So one of the things they did show off was you can download an extens. I don't to call it an extension or add in.

Paul Thurrott (01:03:27):
And it actually provides you with templates to start with. So if you're gonna create a app that has like a toolbar, a navigation bar, it's gonna have a settings interface. You can actually just kind of check through and say, yeah, I want all these things and it'll actually build the app skeleton for you. And you get like a basic toolbar. You, you know, a lot of modern apps have this kind of NAB bar concept. And then the setting span that slides in. So like when I did my UWP stuff, which is probably now a couple years ago, year and a half ago, whatever it was you had to build all that stuff yourself. And I did, I did that all manually. Actually. I have to say having that stuff built for you is really nice. And I think we'll go a long way to helping people, you know, get started. So yeah, I was just looking at it with the eye an eye towards maybe doing a I keep, I think of it as reunion, a windows app, SDK version of that notepad app. Just to kinda see what that looks like. So I, I probably will be doing that. So

Leo Laporte (01:04:19):
The summer. Yeah, yeah. Fun. Yeah. Then you can give us a, you know, from the front lines report.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:25):
Yeah. It's not gonna be positive <laugh> but, but yeah, it's

Leo Laporte (01:04:30):
Okay. Going with it

Paul Thurrott (01:04:33):
Gives you auto. Oh, it does auto stuff like auto themes, like dark and light themes, automatic. That's part of that settings thing, actually. That's really nice. Honestly, I found that stuff to be really tedious and need everything

Leo Laporte (01:04:43):
So good. Yeah. So anything that makes your life better is good by me. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:47):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:04:50):
They did talk about windows store, which I guess that's developers care about that. That's where they're gonna distribute ultimately everybody. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:57):
It was actually a lot of this stuff. So I, I, I guess we'll, we should talk about the Android stuff as in here. Right. there was, or should we, yeah, that we should,

Leo Laporte (01:05:06):
Oh, well we have it later, I think, but yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:05:08):
Well that was, that's the subsystem part. So as far as like the announcements from build, I, I just wanna throw out this notion that Microsoft, this is out in a public, it's not a press release. I guess the blog post, it says Amazon has released thousands of apps to the Microsoft star. No, they haven't <laugh> that is not true. Amazon has not released hundreds of apps. They have released dozens of apps. Wow. And 95% of them are crap. Like they're just games like terrible.

Leo Laporte (01:05:34):
And those are the only things you can get is stuff that Amazon has released. Yeah. Yeah. Right,

Paul Thurrott (01:05:38):
Right. So there's, I mean, look, there's 12 to 15 good apps like United audible, Kindle, Washington post stuff like that. Like the like apps you would recognize as being from actual mainstream big developers that you might want. So supposedly that's gonna change. The, so is coming, I should say the Amazon app store for Android is coming to five more countries. I believe it is by the end of the year, but that's not happening now. Like that didn't just happen. But if you live in France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and the United Kingdom that will happen toward the end of the year. And I guess implicit to this, because they said thousands, like there have to be more apps at some point. I've gotten a lot of questions about the slightly people, like what's going on. Are they ever gonna add any apps?

Paul Thurrott (01:06:24):
It's like it it's the thing to remember. It is, it is still a preview. So it's not generally available per se. I mean, you can get it in the store if you have to kind of go look for it, but you can get it if you want even on like the shipping version of windows 11, it doesn't require like the dev channel or anything like that. But it's a little, I don't know. <Laugh>, that's been, we kind of disappointed. Yeah. So yeah, in more pertinent news, I guess for the store, there's been a wait list up to date up until now for people of 1 32 apps. And that I shouldn't even say 1 32 like desktop apps. So it's 1 30, 2 it's dot net apps. It's windows, presentation, foundation apps, win forums, apps, react, data apps PWAs, you know, cetera, anything that's not a, what we used to call a Microsoft store or a window store app.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:11):
That stuff is, is just brought, is wide open. So if you have an app and you want to get it into the store, you can just go through the normal process. It could be up potentially within hour, certainly within days. So that's happening. They're gonna have an ad platform for Microsoft store apps, I guess. And that's interesting because they're doing what apple and Google won't, which is you can bring your own payment systems. You can do your own ads, you can do whatever you want, but if you wanna use our stuff, it's there, you know, and mm-hmm, <affirmative> okay. That's cool. That's probably most of it, right. I mean, it's, I think that's most of it. Yeah. So it's just, it's this maturing, this thing, that's honestly, 10 years, that thing has been around you believe it's been 10 years. It's been 10 years.

Leo Laporte (01:07:57):
Wow. Are they eventually they want all developers to put their apps in the, in the store. Is that, well,

Paul Thurrott (01:08:04):
It's not a reason goal.

Leo Laporte (01:08:06):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:08:07):
We saw this with the Mac app store as well. Yeah. You know, these app stores work really well on mobile they're walled gardens. That's your only choice basically.

Leo Laporte (01:08:14):
No, the Mac app store on desktop. Huge, huge success. Exactly what you want. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (01:08:20):
Oh, okay. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:08:22):
Well there's not a lot of crap when you download it and install it. It 

Paul Thurrott (01:08:26):
Oh, not a lot of crap. No. Then it's nothing like them. <Laugh> there's

Leo Laporte (01:08:30):
Very little crap. And when you install it if you have a family you know, oh, they all get it. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:08:36):
The benefit. Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:08:37):
It updates automatically. And most apps are in there now you know, a lot by far. And, and because of apple security stuff, gatekeeper most users have it set. You kind of like windows S where that's the only place you can get apps. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:08:54):
Kind of like, I would just say, I, I prefer to have stuff in the store. So I, I, I know there are technical people out there who don't see the need for this. They would just like, I can just download my apps from the web, blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know, what it is, the licensing that makes the win Microsoft store now makes sense to me. So if I buy something like Adobe Photoshop elements, or if I buy something like affinity photo or whatever it is, this thing just, I can just install it. I, everywhere. I don't have to worry about typing in codes and deactivating and reactivating.

Leo Laporte (01:09:24):
Look what what's on the front page of, of apples, Macintosh app store accessibility. And Microsoft's 365.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:31):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:09:32):
Yeah. You know, this is, I guess they're doing a lot of accessibility stuff, but this is honestly, this is fantastic.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:37):
Fantastic. Here's here's the, here's the, the fundamental difference between the two stores is that when apple started their store, they didn't have a new app model. Right. They were just,

Leo Laporte (01:09:47):
No, no, that's right. We're we're just Mac apps.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:50):
We can submit your desktop

Leo Laporte (01:09:50):
Apps. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:51):
We'll look at them. We'll think about it. We'll say yes or no.

Leo Laporte (01:09:54):
They do. That's smart though. Is these apps are more secure. They did prohibit what you could do in many degrees and some, a lot of developers okay. Famously said, well, I can't put my app in the app store cuz I need to do X, Y, and Z. Yeah. But it also means that stuff that's in the app store is really secure. Okay. And so and you could, they've done a great job of highlighting stuff as always with apple. You know, if you get, if you get on the front page here, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna get a lot of download. Yeah. I think this is a good model for what Microsoft should be doing. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:10:28):
All right. That's well, I think this is what they're trying to do. So I will say the Microsoft store, as we call it now has improved a lot. It supports different app types, you know, PS, I think we're one of the early ones that's been, you could wrap desktop apps in some sort of a container thing. Remember they had this process for going through that and there, there were weird things like the Firefox is a good example. If you get Firefox from the store, it's not a hundred percent like the one on the web

Leo Laporte (01:10:54):
Because it's some, yeah. That's been a problem on the Mac app store as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:10:57):
So I, I think with, as of today, I guess we'll call it, I, I think it, this it's kind of wide open now. So if you wanna be in the store and you didn't wanna do all that container, blah, blah, blah, whatever stuff. I mean, I think you can pretty much get your stuff in the store. You, you might get a note from Microsoft similar to what you just described from apple, where they say, Hey, you can't do this thing or whatever it might be. And you have to make those. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:11:20):
The developers sometimes will send you to their website saying, you know, if you want the full version, but that's, you know yeah. For instance rich Siegel, who does BB edit for years kept his app off the app store. Right. Right. And just recently has re added it to the app store cuz he now feels like he can do everything he wants to do in it. So

Paul Thurrott (01:11:40):
This is an app that has like an extensibility model and

Leo Laporte (01:11:43):
All sort stuff you

Paul Thurrott (01:11:44):
Could, you could kind of imagine this might not have been allowed back on day one or whatever.

Leo Laporte (01:11:48):
Yeah. He used to have a, a kind of simplified version that you could get on the app store and then a version the for website. And right recently he said, you know what, I'm gonna keep it in the app. I'm gonna put it all in the app store. So they've changed what he can do.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:01):
Well, that's good. I, I just, I, I, I know there's a need jerk reaction to stuff. And I think a lot of people listening, just like, eh, I don't want anything to do with that, but honestly, for apps that you pay for, 'em like the ones I mentioned and probably others, I, I, if there is a version in the store, I will always get that

Leo Laporte (01:12:17):
Version. Yes. And I think that's, that's exactly right. By the way. Here's another thing that they can do. Great iPhone and iPad apps for max with M

Paul Thurrott (01:12:25):
One. Yeah. So, well that's the way this star has evolved. Right. They have those catalyst apps. Right, right. Called and yeah. You, now you can run iPad

Leo Laporte (01:12:32):
Apps. You don't need catalyst anymore. Cuz the M one is the same

Paul Thurrott (01:12:35):
Ship. It's M yeah. It's the same.

Leo Laporte (01:12:36):
Okay. So

Paul Thurrott (01:12:37):
This no. Well that's great. Cuz these things are known to work all in

Leo Laporte (01:12:40):
The strategies. Very interesting. Yeah. If you wanna see all the stuff from the from the iPhone and iPad, you can run on the, on the Mac. It, it it's a long, it's much better than the, the, the Kindle store list. I gotta say, which

Paul Thurrott (01:12:53):
Is terrible. Yeah. So, well, in, in the early days when this was windows eight, I mean the only apps in there were the, you know used to call Metro apps or modern apps or whatever. And you know, it was, it was garbage. Yeah. And the nice thing on apple side is, you know, you bring like the iPhone and iPad apps to that, to the Mac. It's like, oh my God, it's like this incredible collection of apps, like as windows eight, it was like, okay, how many farting apps? Exactly,

Leo Laporte (01:13:17):
Exactly,

Paul Thurrott (01:13:18):
Exactly. You know, it's this, like, it was, it was really bad. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:13:22):
You know, I, I do have to, to say though, if you search for that, you, you will find a couple sure. Three, just

Paul Thurrott (01:13:30):
Three. Yeah. But, but guys, these have been highly curated. They're known to be every relationship sounding

Leo Laporte (01:13:36):
There. There's burp and fart piano. There's Mo DACT action, which is just funny. Sounds a soundboard. And then this is odd that this $30 app button shortcuts is in is, is under, under farts. But <laugh>, there you go. There you go. And there's a lot more at work. Yeah. Plumber check. That's good. Whoopy cushion. Yeah. There's little bit more on it. Rubber checking on the iPhone, but this is, this is, these are iPhone, you know, if you've been waiting for butts in space you can now play it on the Mac, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So

Paul Thurrott (01:14:08):
Play is your

Leo Laporte (01:14:08):
Favorite, but play is your favorite butt. That's that's their slogan. You must know it. So yeah. The, as you see, there's quite a few more iPhone far apps than there are. They're all

Paul Thurrott (01:14:19):
Imported from windows phone. When that plan from

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:21):
Under exactly.

Leo Laporte (01:14:24):
Well, apparently apple does not have any stricture against restrictions on that particular on as

Paul Thurrott (01:14:30):
We call them guys who like

Leo Laporte (01:14:32):
Lance apps.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:34):
Yes. Yes. Nice. You're like the app approval guy at Sunday night at three o'clock in the morning. And you're wondering why on earth. This is how your life has turned out. Yeah. You have to go through the Flashline apps and just make sure they reach a

Leo Laporte (01:14:44):
Certain quality. Harrington is telling me apple actually sent out a memo to developers saying we have enough flashlight and fart apps. That's right. Stop now.

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:53):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:14:54):
Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:54):
I remember that. No, that was, that went public at the time. Yeah. Cuz everyone came up. It's like, look, you can use your screen as a flashlight. Please stop.

Leo Laporte (01:15:01):
Stop. It's enough. One is enough. Really? Technically

Paul Thurrott (01:15:04):
You have created an app that displays the color white. Congratulations.

Leo Laporte (01:15:08):
Yeah. I can't tell you how many times though. I kind of redownload the B lighter app. <Laugh> cause every time I go to a concert, I like a concert. Forgot my lighter. And so now I can do it on my phone. People do that by the way. That is the thing you do now. So hold up your phone

Paul Thurrott (01:15:23):
And, and my kids will never understand that they used to be actual lighters,

Leo Laporte (01:15:27):
Lighter people, cigarette lighters burned. Why did everybody have lighters? Yeah. What was that all about dad? Well,

Mary Jo Foley (01:15:34):
<Laugh> dad. We were killing

Paul Thurrott (01:15:36):
Ourselves in different ways back then.

Leo Laporte (01:15:38):
That's right. And we had different ways of doing different era. That's right. Yep. Continuing on the promised new, I hate to even say this word and you've put it in notion and I, I thought maybe it would cross

Paul Thurrott (01:15:51):
It out. Great exception to the word new here, but please

Leo Laporte (01:15:54):
Continue. The new OneNote app starts.

Mary Jo Foley (01:15:56):
It can be very fast, a fast

Leo Laporte (01:15:58):
To take shape

Paul Thurrott (01:15:59):
<Laugh> oh, it's gonna be slow. Cause I'm gonna dump all over

Leo Laporte (01:16:02):
<Laugh> but please, your OneNote

Mary Jo Foley (01:16:07):
Was it last year that they said they were gonna combine the UWP mm-hmm <affirmative> and the existing OneNote app rate. So this is the start of that, but what was kind of interesting to me is there are actually some new features. I don't even know how many of these are in the, the new bits that are coming out yet or if they're just promises, but there were things like I forget what you call this, undoing your inking. So if you create diagram, you can go backwards and see what you did and how you got to the that's. That's cool. That actually is cool. Okay. Yeah. There's more voice sanitation. So you can dictate to the app and have it do things. There's gonna be some new transcription things coming, but you know what? There's not in this list.

Leo Laporte (01:16:50):
What,

Mary Jo Foley (01:16:51):
The thing that Paul and I have complained about one note, right? Which is co-authoring doesn't work. And there's nothing about that in here. I'm like, wait, I thought that would be the one thing they would.

Leo Laporte (01:17:02):
They fixed all the things you don't care about. Exactly.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:05):
The issue with this app is that it is what they did to like the paint app and windows 11, which is it's the same app. They just put a win UI front end on

Mary Jo Foley (01:17:15):
Rounded corners. It's

Paul Thurrott (01:17:16):
Little, it's a little prettier, you know? It's yeah. Rounded corners. Yeah. It's the same app and I don't

Mary Jo Foley (01:17:20):
Smaller toolbar, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:17:22):
Yeah. But it's just this just visual. This is lipstick on a pig thing. Yeah. And I, I don't, this is not what the world needs, you know, we need something better. We need love.

Leo Laporte (01:17:33):
Sweet love. <Laugh> oh no. That's something else.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:37):
We, yes.

Mary Jo Foley (01:17:37):
We just wanna coor. I buy the world of color.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:40):
That's what I'm saying is

Mary Jo Foley (01:17:42):
We wanna coauthoring and all we got was the lousy ribbon. I don't know. Yeah. Like, yeah. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:17:48):
Yeah, no. It's like we wanted coauthoring and all I got was this lousy t-shirt would be the perfect <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (01:17:53):
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Although this isn't all the features, they say it's just the start of the features. So maybe somebody listening will help us out with this.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:02):
Here's an idea, guy, guys, less features. I just want to take notes <laugh> yeah. You know, like what

Mary Jo Foley (01:18:08):
I don't they need one note light. They need, they need us a family. Yes. Notepad. The simplest OneNote light. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:18:14):
That's a great idea.

Mary Jo Foley (01:18:16):
Brilliant. They need a whole little family. That's

Leo Laporte (01:18:18):
A brilliant idea.

Mary Jo Foley (01:18:19):
They'll never do it.

Leo Laporte (01:18:21):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:21):
Well they talk to me about this a few years ago. Probably several years ago, now that there was some discussion about this, they, they saw that this kind of markdown based world was taking over and they know that ode had grown into this giant pig of a program. Yeah. But you know, it's, it's like anything else it's like, outlook is like this. Any, any, what word is like this? I mean any big application that's been around for a long time. Anytime you start talking about taking stuff away, people start complaining. Cuz there's always that one guy who needs that one feature that no one else uses. And that's a nice segue to windows 11, cuz that's the problem with windows 11. Right? Because the complaints about windows 11 are always from the person's like what's going on? I need this one thing and it's gone. You're like, I am the one human being that puts the task for on the left side of the screen. I can't do that in windows 11. And you can't simplify something without taking stuff away. Right. It's just the reality.

Leo Laporte (01:19:12):
That's fine. I don't, you know, that's fine.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:16):
It's fine. But I left because they're not gonna do its one. So I'm just done. I'm not, I couldn't care less what they do now. I'm not, I'm never looking at that thing again. So

Leo Laporte (01:19:24):
It's really interesting. I mean you made us use one note for years, Paul. Wow. <laugh> okay. We've been using notion I've been using notion for four years.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:37):
Yeah. Dictatorship. You

Leo Laporte (01:19:38):
Made us, I made you, you made us use one. Not, but there's nothing, you know more virulent than a lapsed OneNote user. Shall we say? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:53):
There

Leo Laporte (01:19:54):
You go. There's no hate. No

Paul Thurrott (01:19:55):
More great. Like the hate of a former

Leo Laporte (01:19:57):
One, one note user.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:59):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:20:00):
We're gonna take a break. I do wanna mention, remember I ordered a Dell XPS 15. Yeah. Cause I wanted a 12th generation. It's built, built is complete, but

Paul Thurrott (01:20:10):
Oh no.

Leo Laporte (01:20:11):
Oh no. Thank you for your order. The current lockdown in China is restricting logistics and delaying order deliveries. So they've built it. They've got a factory in China. Some probably Q right. The tracking number for your order will not become active until the system arrives in your country. This may take up to 30 days. Please check back here for the most update information on your tracking. Speaking

Paul Thurrott (01:20:33):
Of virulent, the Chinese person that built this, put a moth in there and it's probably gonna destroy the

Leo Laporte (01:20:38):
Eastern seaboard. I have to wear a mask when I opened the laptop. So did they originally tell you to explain, no, this is the, this is the good news. Is they correctly estimate? Well, we'll find out when I get it, but they correctly, I think estimated June 11th and this is still the estimated arrival date. So I ordered it in April late April. I mean, that's not awful, but it's interesting.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:00):
Remember you were hoping you'd have it before July for the trip.

Leo Laporte (01:21:03):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and, and I probably will. I think I will. I will be I will be taking it. You're

Paul Thurrott (01:21:08):
Roughly positive about this. I would be spiraling right now. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:21:11):
But that's,

Paul Thurrott (01:21:13):
That's how I handle things.

Leo Laporte (01:21:14):
So this was about this, this was three or four days ago. I got this note that Hey, we built it. Yeah, but <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:21:21):
Was the headline just China,

Leo Laporte (01:21:23):
China,

Paul Thurrott (01:21:24):
China.

Leo Laporte (01:21:26):
So yeah, I mean I'm presuming they build it you know, in Shanghai where they're completely locked down and mm-hmm <affirmative> I, I guess it's just a pallet of laptops, just sitting by the door, just

Paul Thurrott (01:21:37):
Get a bunch of bat wings in there and it'll be like,

Leo Laporte (01:21:39):
<Laugh> little put a few monkeys in there. Yeah. For fun.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:44):
Yeah. Remember all those sanctions had nothing to do with

Leo Laporte (01:21:47):
Them. Nothing to do with it. <Laugh> I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, I don't mind. It's not, you know, it's not the end of the world. I knew it was gonna take a while. Like, as you said, I just hope it comes before we said sale for Sitka July 16th through the 23rd. I think there's still slots. It's not too late. Although I'm guessing that people have probably gonna wait and see what happens with COVID before they sign up, but oh God. Yeah, you'll get, I'm pretty sure you get your money back if they cancel the cruise.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:15):
If you guys, yeah. If it you've seen Gilligans island, I think you have a rough idea of how this is gonna

Leo Laporte (01:22:20):
<Laugh> wait, you're gonna hit me with your hat all the time.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:22):
Is that well, you're gonna, well, I was thinking

Leo Laporte (01:22:24):
We're gonna skipper here. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:22:26):
There's Gilligan Gilligan.

Leo Laporte (01:22:29):
Anyway, it's gonna be a lot of fun cruise at TWiT do TV. And you know, when you, when you fill out the form there, you talk to a, a travel agent at travel store and you could ask them, you know, what happens if COVID breaks out or something. But I think, you know, it's they reduce the number of people on the boat. They you know, they have lots of, they have a good code of COVID protocols and stuff. I think it's gonna be fine.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:51):
And there's nothing safer than being a C when it comes to stuff

Leo Laporte (01:22:55):
Like this. Well, yeah. UN unless people on the boat have it, in which case there's no worse place to be. There

Paul Thurrott (01:23:00):
Are no stories about people being on a cruise ship, having problem with, I dunno what you're

Leo Laporte (01:23:04):
Talking about. Oh Lord. Why did we think? You know, when we planned this? Yeah. A year ago, I know we thought, oh, it'll be over by then. So everything should be fine by then. No, but it's gonna be a lot of fun. Paul and Stephanie Lisa and I, and a bunch of rabid windows, dozers. <Laugh> dozers at sea dozers at sea. That's the name of it. And I put together IPO presents a little kit so that we can we can do some little podcasts or social media or something while we're there. So it'll be a lot of fun. Our show today brought to you by Tanium. There's a name, Mary Jo knows mm-hmm <affirmative> one of the big disruptors, one of the one of the little guys who is really changing the industry's approach to cyber security, because early on Tanium realized there is a fundamental flaw.

Leo Laporte (01:23:58):
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Leo Laporte (01:24:55):
Sure. You might have a tool that does just that, but Tanium does so much more and there's no silos. So it knows everything. So you got risk and this is important compliance management. You could find and fix vulnerabilities at scale in seconds, threat hunting hunt for sophisticated adversaries in real time, client management, which lets you automate operations from discovery to management, sensitive data monitoring, which lets you index and monitor sensitive data globally in seconds. Tanium is one of those companies. One of those startups that has transformed the security landscape and, and they're very popular with organizations where other endpoint management and security providers have failed. Maybe that's you or maybe that's could be you and you don't want that to happen with a, a single platform. Tanium identifies where all your data is across your entire it estate patches, every device you own automatically in seconds, implements critical security controls.

Leo Laporte (01:25:53):
And it's all from a single pane of glass. Look at some of the testimonials@tanium.com, including Kevin Bush, he's VP it ring power Corp. He says quotatium brings visibility to one screen for our whole team. If you don't have that kind of visibility, you're not gonna be able to sleep at night <laugh> with real time, data comes real time impact. So if you're ready to unite operations and security teams of the single source of truth and confidently protect your organization from cyber threats. Well maybe it's time you met Tanium T a N I U M tanium.com/TWiTt that's tanium.com/TWiTt. Let me thank 'em so much for supporting windows weekly. I it's really great because a lot of these really exciting new companies are now kind of getting that this is a great place for them to be, to introduce themselves to our audience. So thank you, Tanium and thank you windows weekly listeners dozers for going to tanium.com/TWiTt. So they know you saw it here on, we go with the show. Let me go back to our notion and see what we're talking next. Windows 11,

Paul Thurrott (01:27:13):
Any other week, this would've been a soft story.

Leo Laporte (01:27:15):
Really? Yep,

Paul Thurrott (01:27:17):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:27:17):
Really? Yeah. Yeah. Should I play a fanfare? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:23):
So the next ver the second version of windows 1122 H two is complete. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:27:30):
But that is a big story

Paul Thurrott (01:27:31):
And yeah, they didn't announce it <laugh> per se, but a, a Microsoft, was it a Microsoft tech community blog basically confirmed that the build that went out about two weeks ago to both beta and dev channels is the final build. That's it? So it's 22, 6 21.

Leo Laporte (01:27:48):
I had somebody calling the radio show saying I can't get past 21 H one. <Laugh> now we got 22 H two.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:00):
Yes. So

Leo Laporte (01:28:02):
Wait a minute. Why isn't it? 22 H one,

Paul Thurrott (01:28:05):
Because they're only doing once a year now.

Leo Laporte (01:28:07):
Oh, right. But, but we're still in the first half, so I'm confused.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:11):
Right. But they've completed this. So in other words, it's gonna go to PC makers sometime over the summer.

Leo Laporte (01:28:15):
Oh, okay. So we won't get it until September, right. At the earliest.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:20):
That's the, that's the kind of hints. There's a, there's a September date. That's in this document that has something to do with what PC makers can do. And by when, and that kind of suggests like, you know, like we don't have RTM anymore. Right. We just have to cope with this windows. I've since actually since windows 8.1, there's been this notion of, you know, okay. We put the, we, we kind of finalize the code, but we're gonna keep updating it. Before it goes out on PCs, there's gonna be all these updates, you know, you'll get a new PC, you'll have to install updates. Like there'll be updates posts. Whenever that date is, of course, as we saw for the original version of windows 11. Right. So it's kind of a, it's a moving target.

Leo Laporte (01:28:58):
It's anti climactic. Now it

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:00):
Is right.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:02):
It is. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:03):
And also, I bet we're still gonna see them roll out some new features to windows 11. Like they did earlier this year outside of this update. That's right. Like maybe in the summer, you'll see. Oh, here's three new features. We're rolling it out on patch shoes. Here you go. That's weird.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:18):
Well, we know what one of them is. Is that well, it could be, I should say, is that tab, file Explorer experience,

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:25):
Right? Yeah. Well that

Paul Thurrott (01:29:26):
Was something, well I know. Well,

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:27):
It could be no, no, no.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:29):
Okay. <laugh> You're like the crusher of dreams what's

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:33):
Going on. I know, you know what I feel like that has to be tested more cuz didn't they pull that out of the build and say, eh, we're not ready for that one yet. Hey look, did they? I thought they did. I thought it was in dev channel and then it never went to the least preview or beta. Right. But there's other things smallest

Leo Laporte (01:29:51):
Two. What's what I mean, we've seen everything right. Or no. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:55):
Yeah. You have. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:56):
Yeah. So here's the thing. So I'm gonna talk about this in my tip section, but I've installed this now on two computers especially for the idea of just seeing what that experience was like. And if you're <laugh>, you know, if you're using windows 11 today, you're not gonna notice a lot not right off the top, not right. Not off the front or whatever. There, there's a bunch of things cuz a lot of the stuff, you know, it's been in the insider program for while. So like one of the complaints about windows 11, one of the million complaints was, you know, you right. Click things and the menu looks a little different. So when you right click the recycle bin on the desktop, it's the same as when you right. Click the desktop. Okay. It's like a little thing, right. There are these personalization things related to the start menu, for example, that I think are pretty good where you can not great, but pretty good where you can determine how much space each one of the sections gets. Right? That's that's new. So you have layouts, you know, that kind of thing. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but as far as like, and as the microphone, the, the microphone feature in the task bar, which only works with teams is present in this. You won't notice that unless you use the commercial version of teams, you know honestly from like a, like a noticeable something perspective, there's not,

Mary Jo Foley (01:31:09):
No, almost

Paul Thurrott (01:31:10):
Anything <laugh>,

Mary Jo Foley (01:31:11):
You know, wasn't that the search, the search box has a different design where you're using like image of the day stuff in there. And

Paul Thurrott (01:31:20):
So I don't see that. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, that's not your name. You see that? I'm sorry. Excuse me. You're right. I don't see cuz what happens is I type, I, I don't just bring up search I type, but if you just bring up search, yes, you will get this nonsense display <laugh> by the way, on this day in 1977 star wars debut, there you go. So I guess it's not completely, but it has nothing to do with search. It's just, here's some stuff we thought you might find.

Mary Jo Foley (01:31:44):
It's another way of showing you MSA news and B stuff.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:47):
It's a little, yeah, it's a little widget. Like it's like a widget preview. You can turn that off. At least I will point that out. Yeah. And if you just start typing, it goes away <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (01:31:58):
So

Paul Thurrott (01:31:59):
Yeah. Start typing and it's gone. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:32:01):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:02):
It's not a lot. So sometime in the near future, I'll, I'll kind of try to list through what's new. I'm not gonna do that today, but it's there's nothing profound. Unfortunately,

Mary Jo Foley (01:32:15):
You know, it's not too late for Thurrott.com to become an Azure watching site. I'm just saying there's a lot happening every day in Azure, not maybe, you know, not a new widget or something stuff

Paul Thurrott (01:32:26):
I hear. You's a lot of, and I, I will raise you one Microsoft team. So something I would do before I would ever do that. But 

Mary Jo Foley (01:32:33):
Yeah. I don't know. I dunno. I just feel like our expectations about windows have to change. Like we, we used to be thinking there'd be some huge feature, something secret, some big thing would come over the, the goal line. That's not, that's not gonna happen anymore. Right. You're gonna get these incremental updates.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:52):
It's worse than that. That's the, it's the other thing, the other thing that's not gonna happen is you can make a list of like the 10 things that I really just don't like about windows or anyone doesn't like about windows 11 and you could pretty much guarantee none of that's gonna change, you know? Right. They are, they're just heading down this path and this is that simplification thing I was talking about this. They wanted to do 10 X, they couldn't. So they're gonna force part of that on us with just windows, those 11 and right. You know, for power users. That could be hard. I, I think for average users, my wife, for example, non-technical people. Yeah. I

Mary Jo Foley (01:33:24):
Don't think

Paul Thurrott (01:33:24):
They care. That's okay. And I think I don't care. Maybe that's what yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:33:29):
Yeah. As SPC Casey says in the discord, I am a professional crusher of dreams. I just want everyone to know that's my title. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:33:39):
Okay. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:33:40):
<Laugh> that's my job. And I'm here for it. Dream crushing. No I'm bringing, I'm bringing a little dose of reality on windows. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:33:48):
All. Yeah. Well, wow. Sorry. It's nice to have that thrown back in my face. 

Mary Jo Foley (01:33:53):
Sorry. So

Paul Thurrott (01:33:54):
<Laugh> no, it's okay. So this thing's done so to speak and we know that doesn't mean anything. There are two other things going on with where there's 11, right? There's there's a release preview thing. That's just doing app updates and blah, blah, blah. That isn't really amount too much. But there's also the dev channel, which is stuff that might appear in a future version of windows 11 or like Mary Jo said at some interim time in windows 11, like, you know, just could be dropped on us at any point. There have been two builds since we last met because last week's build, I think went on Thursday. Yeah. Last week's build had something really interesting in it. I just talked about what did I talk about? What was the not active desktop, but the, well, I guess active desktop, you know, that kind of stuff and the, the HDML interfaces, widgets and gadgets and so forth.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:44):
They're bringing some of that back or I should say they're thinking about bringing some of that back. So one of the things that's in the second most recent dev channel build is a desktop based. They don't really call it this, but I'm gonna call it a search widget. And it's a desktop search widget. No, no, no. I'm sorry. It's an internet search widget course of it opens Microsoft edge. Of course it searches with thing. Of course you can't change either one of those things it's on the desktop, which is kind of weird because you can't see the desktop unless you close it or you minimize everything. Right. this has always been the central problem with these UIs. Like when they put the gadgets, I think they were called from windows Vista only on the desktop and windows seven. I think people stopped using them cuz you couldn't really see them unless you hit everything.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:30):
And I think that's the issue or like the live tiles in the windows 10 start menu, you know, the problem there is like, you they're live data, they're showing you how glance information, but you're not looking at that screen. So it's kind of worthless. And so this is a feature that may or may not you know, we'll see, they may not make it all the way through. Just while we were, I think right at the start of the show, they released a build on time this week <laugh> so we did get a new build this week to the dev channel. And again, one new feature. This is even less monumental <laugh> if you go into settings, in fact, I should do that. That's one thing I have not looked at and I don't, I do not see it. You that's weird. It's not even in my thing.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:09):
So whatever. So they're adding an interface in in settings. So you can manage your Microsoft 365 subscription. So it's, it's gonna be up there at the top sort of a header in this new build. They're experimenting with also doing that for perpetual office licenses. So you're not paying for Microsoft 3, 365 subscription, but you bought office 2019 home and whatever it's called student, if they have such a thing. And we will give you the license information about that there. I don't think that's a big deal. I don't know what the point of it is, but there it is. So, okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:36:43):
I think they're just trying to make it. So when you go to this account page, you'll see everything, something that you buy, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:36:50):
Yep. Yep. Let me go back. Where is this out there? It is now it popped up. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:36:54):
I did. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:55):
Yeah. It's kind of, it's a fun little thing. I, if, if you were using windows 10 or 11, the first version of windows 11 today, what you'll see on this account page is none of this stuff. So you can click links and it will open on the web and then you can go to the Microsoft account website and you can see information about subscriptions and whatever else. And so they're kind of putting it into the settings interface, which I,

Mary Jo Foley (01:37:15):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's good. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:37:18):
Yeah. Didn't hurt anybody.

Mary Jo Foley (01:37:20):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:37:20):
Which is all we're looking for at this voice system. Like lack of maliciousness. And then the, yeah, so I mentioned there was a windows subsystem for Android update. This is true just on windows 11. So if you have the shipping version of windows 11, I believe you'll be getting this and this is not something well there's little bits you will see. So mostly it's backend stuff. Some of the stuff you'll see as an end user is Android notifications will now appear as windows toast notifications. So they'll look seamless, which I think to me is the way it should have always been. And then there's a bunch of little things around how microphone, location, system services work. There's some keyboard improvements. If you have a scroll wheel in your mouse, it will work with that. It does better hardware, decoding, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So just some kind of backend stuff. They, they upgraded it to Android version 12.1, I think the original must on 12 point. Oh, so

Mary Jo Foley (01:38:10):
It looks like a lot of stuff in this, right? Like in this update

Paul Thurrott (01:38:14):
It looks like a lot of stuff. But when you actually go through, you're like, well, what am I gonna see? Like what I notice the settings page has been updated. Yeah. I think the toast are the big thing. Yeah. That's the biggest one. And then <laugh>, this is not as offensive as that's stupid start menu video that we talked about when Mary Jo was up. But Microsoft released a video in context or in the context of comp Utex, which is a trade show that no one's actually going to in person right now, I guess. So what they did was they made a video. So it's Panos pane who is executive vice president and chief product officer. Cuz you have to have 117 characters in your title. <Laugh> and then corporate vice president of device partner sales Nicole desen or is it Deen? Desen

Mary Jo Foley (01:38:59):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:00):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so I, I can help me. I watched this thing. I, I

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:06):
Wrote, I tried, I gave up

Paul Thurrott (01:39:08):
<Laugh> even you, Mary Jo.

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:10):
Wow. I watched for like five minutes. I'm like, mm, no, not gonna watch it. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:39:14):
Wow. I feel like they need to do less of this. I, I don't, I, I don't know what to say. I, so here's I I'll just without getting into any personal issues, I guess I'll just say there are no hard numbers for windows 11. We don't know how many they've sold. How many licenses, how many to PC makers, how many people have upgrade? We don't know, but my God do, they put out statistics and they're just vague statistics. And, and depending on the statistic, I have major or really major problems with these numbers. Like they're all not believable. Like they're just not believable. So let me, I'll give you two of them. If I can find the two I'm looking for here. We it's let's see, I just wanna read this. So I get, this is exactly right. People are accepting the windows 11 upgrade offer at TWiTce.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:04):
The rate that we saw for windows 10, impossible. That's impossible. Windows 10 arrived in the wake of windows eight. They were giving it away for free. Everybody wanted to get off of windows eight, everybody. Like that's not, it's just not possible. <Laugh> like it doesn't make any sense. Windows 10 is great. Now is there some enthusiast space that wants to move forward? Yeah, of course, of course you had to. I mean, they really siphon this thing down so that only some people got it too. The rollout has been very slow. If you look at any external data from IDC, Gartner the stuff we looked at from ad duplex, whatever you choose your source, every one of those people, those companies will tell you, this thing has been going out really slow. And Microsoft's like, Nope, it's fastest. We've ever had like, okay, impossible.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:58):
But there's the thing. Business adoption of windows 11. Now this one <laugh>, this is the worst one. Th this is the faster adoption than we've seen in every, any previous version of windows. Impossible. And I say that because I've been alive because we witnessed windows Vista, we witnessed how long Vista took to come to market. We saw what it was. We saw that nobody wanted it, and there's not a, a major business on earth that upgraded to windows Vista. They all waited for windows seven. And then they went to town and we know for a fact that Microsoft sold an average of 20 million copy licenses of windows seven over its entire three year timeframe, every single month. We know that this is a fact it's documented there's this has not happened there. This is impossible. There is a low single digit percentage of windows computers in the world that are running windows 11 right now, period. This is not true. <Laugh> so I just don't, I don't know, you know, quality windows 11 has the highest quality score of any version of windows that we've ever shipped. What <laugh> what does that even mean? I don't, what do you, I don't know. I don't know where these things come from. So yeah. Again, this is not, it's not offensive. Like that start menu video, which is gross, but it's like, I don't, I don't know where this stuff.

Mary Jo Foley (01:42:25):
Yeah. I don't,

Paul Thurrott (01:42:26):
I don't know how to, to make this make sense with reality. I don't know how to, I just don't know what

Mary Jo Foley (01:42:31):
To say. Can't I dunno, <laugh> you can't <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:42:35):
He even says here's one. He says he talks about this new era of windows. This is brand like it's some, you know, like it's not a minor, like feature update to windows 10 hybrid work for us, blah, blah. The PC is more essential to everything we're doing. You know, this, we have, this is how we said it more than 1.4 billion users around the world. Wow. Well, I've been writing about the history of windows and I know that in 2014, someone stood up on stage and said it was 1.5 billion. So has that number gone down? And if so, how is the PC more essential to everything we're doing than it was eight years ago? Yeah. Or whatever that is.

Mary Jo Foley (01:43:16):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:17):
I have trouble with the numbers, so

Mary Jo Foley (01:43:21):
That's why I didn't watch it. I saw, I kind of saw where it was going and I'm like, eh, no. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:26):
It never gets better. It never gets better.

Mary Jo Foley (01:43:29):
Yeah. I don't know why like

Paul Thurrott (01:43:31):
This. I, I just, I, I like windows 11. I really do. And I, it, it, it, I, I have a problem with this stuff. There there's stuff that they talk about. That's fantastic. The accessibility stuff in windows 11. Awesome. The UI, great windows 365. Fantastic. you know, those PC market has kind of rebounded because of COVID excellent. I have no problems with that secure, you know, secured core PC and Pluton. Yeah. Their first part is ship this stuff, disabled. Intel has already said, this is superfluous because what they're doing is already better. And I, we don't even know why Microsoft is doing this, you know, there's, there's stuff like that. So, and that's whatever we can talk about anything, but I have a problem with the numbers, the two X stuff. Yeah. You know, fastest, best, most high quality. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:21):
I feel like in general, this is the direction we're going with numbers. Right. Like we see this on earnings calls too, right? Like, yeah. It's five times the demand that we had last year. Yeah. Well, we don't know what that number was. Was the who knows, right? Yeah. Yep. Right. Yep. Yeah. I think this is a new normal sadly. And we gotta just, yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:44:40):
This

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:40):
Is, except it <laugh>. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:42):
This has been going around for a while. I, the thing I really miss though, are I miss hard numbers of any kind like, so windows eight although eventually that went south and then windows 10. I did <laugh> there were regular updates about, well, this is what we sold. How

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:56):
Far along? Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:58):
Yep. And we have not gotten a single number. We get a lot of platitudes, you know? Yep. But we are closing in on the one year point from when they announced it. And then we're, I guess about nine months into the year mm-hmm <affirmative>, since they started selling it and they have yet to provide us, not even once, not one number. Cause I think that number I'm gonna undercut the other stuff you're saying.

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:21):
I, I don't think we're gonna see a number. I don't, I I'm pretty sure we're not <laugh>. Yeah. Not for a long time. Not until maybe windows 10 is obsolete, then maybe we'll see a number. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:45:33):
Yeah. I don't mean to obsess over this stuff, but I feel like someone has to hold these guys accountable and they're not gonna do it themselves. That's for sure.

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:40):
That's why we need the thro bot.

Leo Laporte (01:45:43):
<Laugh> wait a minute. What's the thro bot, is this gonna be like a robo cop? Is he gonna come in and say, hello, citizen surrender.

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:52):
Whenever you need a snarky comment.

Leo Laporte (01:45:54):
<Laugh> oh, that's

Paul Thurrott (01:45:55):
Good. Yeah. Frank Shaw came up with this. He's the, what is he? What's his story? He's like in charge of

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:59):
The head of communications. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:00):
Communications at Microsoft. So he does like a little intro video for the press before build, before every show. And in this one, he mentioned that he was gonna, he, he said something like that wanted to create a, a bot that would be like sarcastic and mean. And then he is like, oh, I made a Thurrott bot.

Leo Laporte (01:46:15):
<Laugh>. That's awesome. That's great. You're famous.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:20):
I don't think I'm mean no

Leo Laporte (01:46:22):
Sarcastic.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:23):
I wouldn't. Right. Yeah. I wouldn't, I wouldn't think that.

Leo Laporte (01:46:25):
Yeah. You might feel that way. If you worked at Microsoft, if you're Frank shine,

Paul Thurrott (01:46:30):
Microsoft, <laugh> sure.

Leo Laporte (01:46:31):
He's so mean.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:32):
He made me grow. You don't understand. There are people behind these products. You're like, all right. I don't believe there are no

Leo Laporte (01:46:37):
<Laugh>. No, but that's okay. That's the eternal issue. If you're a journalist of any kind. Sure. You might have empathy, but you also have to tell the truth and my lies with users, not the company. Yeah. Right. You

Paul Thurrott (01:46:53):
Guys have watched well, maybe may not marry show, but there's a, there's a show on apple TV called Ted lasso, which is yes. One of the best TV shows ever made. And I feel like I, I am that journalist guy and the, the guy from the independedependent <laugh>, you

Leo Laporte (01:47:08):
Know, he stands up. He's so funny. Yeah. He

Paul Thurrott (01:47:10):
Always stands out and he says, I'm whatever his name is from the independent. And like, everyone just repeats it back. Like now he stands up and everyone just chant it to him. It's so funny. I love it. He, he always says exactly the thing. Yeah. But he's just kind of a jerk and he, he kind of, you know, he is very sour and I'm like, yeah, that's pretty much what

Leo Laporte (01:47:25):
Yeah. You could be, you know, the anti-hero in the Ted lasso show. Yeah. That'd be good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Thau thau.com. Yeah. Why do you guys suck so bad?

Paul Thurrott (01:47:39):
I also feel like the guy, when the that player goes on to TV and he's just so brutally honest. Yeah. He's like, well, what do you think about Ja? He's like Jamie, Todd is a Muppet <laugh> You know, he's just like so brutal. I just I'm like, that is just it's perfect. He just doesn't care. They ask him a question. He just goes,

Leo Laporte (01:48:01):
He

Paul Thurrott (01:48:01):
Doesn't answer

Leo Laporte (01:48:03):
It's

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:04):
It does sound like you

Paul Thurrott (01:48:06):
<Laugh>. You should watch this show. Mary Jo. It's fantastic. Anyway, you'd have to pay apple for

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:11):
Something that I know. Yeah. That's a, no,

Paul Thurrott (01:48:14):
I know

Leo Laporte (01:48:15):
You wouldn't even give them $5 a month to watch Ted lasso. Really?

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:19):
No, screw those guys.

Leo Laporte (01:48:22):
And they call Paul was great. Mean and sarcastic, you know, there's people who work at that product.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:29):
Yeah, exactly. You know, you know what, you know, there are people work at apple there,

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:33):
Joe, are they? They Muppets. I think they're S

Leo Laporte (01:48:37):
Muppets. You're probably right. Probably no. We know that there are people in all of these companies and they work hard and they care and they do a good job and they, yeah. And they wanna make the best product. And you know what, this is part of our job is to tell them when they don't. Right. And and they should appreciate that. We're we're feedback. Tough

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:55):
Love,

Leo Laporte (01:48:55):
Tough love.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:56):
I know Steve jobs appreciated it. So you know, why wouldn't everyone else.

Leo Laporte (01:48:59):
I'm still not invited to apple events. <Laugh> all these

Paul Thurrott (01:49:05):
Stone. When he says something gets

Leo Laporte (01:49:06):
Over, it must be there's a gold plate somewhere inside apple. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> these people must never come to an apple event. Exactly. And I'm on it.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:14):
There's not enough time can pass

Leo Laporte (01:49:16):
<Laugh>. Where are we? 

Paul Thurrott (01:49:20):
Xbox.

Leo Laporte (01:49:21):
Oh, really? We did the subsystem. Yeah. We kind of talked to Ben. Android. Yeah. Okay. yeah. Let's let's do it. Mary Jo, you have the rest of the day off. Let's do it. Paul Thora. Well, this is, oh, it's a short one. It's a little tiny one. So I,

Paul Thurrott (01:49:34):
I didn't realize this was news. I, in, in the Nadella keynote, he just kind of casually threw it by the way, a hard number. He said there are over 10 million people using Xbox game pass.

Leo Laporte (01:49:44):
That's good. He thought,

Paul Thurrott (01:49:45):
Yeah. I was like, yeah, good. Okay. But I thought we already knew that. So then the next, later in the day or whatever, I, you know, people were writing about like, oh, he finally revealed a number. I'm like, wait, but that was new. I thought, huh?

Leo Laporte (01:49:57):
I thought, well, is it? Or isn't it?

Paul Thurrott (01:49:59):
I don't know. I thought, I thought it was known, but I guess this is new.

Leo Laporte (01:50:02):
It's a reasonable number. Is that yeah. Is that, does that match their hopes?

Paul Thurrott (01:50:08):
Well, we're never gonna know that, but I will. I'll put that in a little bit of perspective. I just off the top of my head, I think the only numbers we ever got for Xbox live gold, which is sort of the start of this subscription, kind of a thing was in the mid forties, like 46 million, something like that. So for them to have a quarter of that paying to actually, well, not stream games, but to in most cases, download the games, but you know, to have access to library kind of a Spotify model, which is streaming. So maybe that's not exactly the right model, but you know what I'm saying? <Laugh> the idea is you have this access to this tremendous collection. You can download to console and plan. If you pay for the most expensive version, you need to get Xbox cloud gaming as well, which is the streaming service. So we don't know how many of each one, et cetera, but the two the console and the PC version of the service are 9 99 a month. So I would say Xbox live gold was, you know, five bucks a month. And then the big expensive one ultimate with the streaming is 1499 a month.

Leo Laporte (01:51:03):
So yeah, they didn't break it down. So we don't know which is,

Paul Thurrott (01:51:07):
We'll never, they'll never no, no, no. That's way too much detail. They'll never do

Leo Laporte (01:51:09):
That. <Laugh> that's, that's crazy. What would you guess? Half and half?

Paul Thurrott (01:51:15):
No. well, oh, okay. Hmm. Yeah, maybe. I think, I mean, honestly I think the, the ultimate version is a great value. If you're gonna play those games, like you have to wanna play a lot of games. That's true of any of those subscriptions, but you wanna play games all the time and, and do it on across various devices maybe while you're commuting or sitting out at the couch or whatever, watching TV. I think it's an, I think it's an awesome value. So yeah, it could be as high as 50 50.

Leo Laporte (01:51:44):
Yeah. So do the math kids. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:48):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it kind of, when you stack it up, money wise,

Leo Laporte (01:51:51):
It's good money.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:52):
It's probably pretty damn close to what they were getting on a hundred

Leo Laporte (01:51:55):
Million. Yeah. Live no more than a hundred million live gold 140 million, 70 million plus 1500 it's lot. My head <laugh>, it's a lot.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:07):
It's a lot. All I know is a lot. It's a lot. So it's,

Leo Laporte (01:52:11):
It's, it's it's good money. It's good money. 140 million plus 300 plus <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:52:20):
Here we go. See,

Leo Laporte (01:52:21):
It's hard.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:22):
Plus with people not getting the consoles for while

Leo Laporte (01:52:25):
I need to plug my brain into an Azure compute instance, you got one mm-hmm

Paul Thurrott (01:52:28):
<Affirmative>. If we only had an MPU,

Leo Laporte (01:52:30):
I need an NPU

Paul Thurrott (01:52:31):
Times. How many times have I said that?

Leo Laporte (01:52:33):
I need an MPU said that any ni you

Paul Thurrott (01:52:35):
Zero. Okay. Okay. This is potentially big. Oh no, this is literally big news. So one of the open secrets in the Microsoft world with Xbox is this console, no matter which one we're talking about has never sold well in Japan. And back in the day, you know, when you think about the original Xbox consoles, kind of this huge heavy tank, the story was always, you don't understand people in Japan are all kind of, you know, highly dense areas, small apartments, they can't fit this thing in there. You know, they would buy PlayStations. Although I, you know, honestly, PlayStation three PlayStation five, those humongous consoles, but sta PlayStation and has always outsold Xbox. They also have those Japanese games. It's a very particular market. And Microsoft has kind of struggled in that area, but apparently, and this is according to two different sets of data, the Xbox series S which is that small, cute one has outsold the PS five in Japan for the first time ever.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:27):
And I, I mean, this is the first time Xbox has ever outsold any version of PS five. And there's a figure here. I gotta find this number. This is crazy. Microsoft. Over 20 years sold 2.3 million Xboxes. That's it in Japan, over three and a half generations. Wow. That's nothing. It's nothing. And for them to have the one they did the best with, but with, by the way, it was the Xbox 360. And that was the version. You know, the first one was white, kind of like an apple product. And then they got smaller and even sleeker, you could make a case. Like you could see where that one would've been something the Japanese market might have embraced the Xbox one. Remember they went back to that ginormous thing. It got smaller over time, but that was the one that did the worst. So this is not only doing better than the previous generation, but it's, it's kind of the best they've done comparatively.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:18):
They've never beat. Like I said, they've never beaten Sony. So to even do that for a couple of months, which is what I think the timeframe is here is, you know, it's pretty good. Now. They gotta work in the game situation. Obviously they're certain final fantasy type games that are really available in Japan, but that's still big news. And what's the last one. This is nothing. What? I don't even know why this is here. I think I was patting it. I was like, go trying to get back at Mary Jo. I wanted more Xbox

Mary Jo Foley (01:54:44):
Stories. <Laugh> I know your tricks. Just patted it's okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:49):
Pat it, man. Yeah. Anyway, Microsoft just has a new ad campaign for the Xbox series S and this, the deal here is you gotta remember when they launched this console generation Sony had two versions. One had an optical disc, one didn't, but on the Microsoft side, the Xbox series S actually has really serious differences in the configuration GPU CPU, et cetera. It's kind of aimed at this market where it's like 10 80 P 60 frames a second. The big console of the series X is 4k 60 frames. A second. It depends on the game. It depends on what you're doing and what they're, what they found is that actually a lot of games run well, all games run great, but I mean, games run better on the S than I think even Microsoft expected. And I think they're starting this new marketing thing where they're like, look, this is actually an excellent NextGen console. It's really competitive. And by the way, it's very available and super inexpensive. It's small and cute. I I'd love this thing. I've been using it probably for the past six since Christmas, at least. What is that? Almost six months.

Paul Thurrott (01:55:53):
That's all I got Mary Jo. I'm sorry. I tried to keep it going. Oh man.

Leo Laporte (01:55:57):
Oh man. I was hoping so much more.

Paul Thurrott (01:56:00):
Yeah. You know, I'm sorry. Me too. There was that one weird week when she was gone. There were like 12 stories. Yeah. It wasn't, it, it was like the, the stars just kind of along so weird.

Leo Laporte (01:56:10):
<Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:56:10):
Yeah, no, it just happened. It was the weirdest thing. It was good. Good timing. Good timing. Get it out of the way. Exactly. I mean, I can go through it again now. If no, no,

Leo Laporte (01:56:19):
No, no. It's okay. It's fine.

Paul Thurrott (01:56:21):
<Laugh> it's

Leo Laporte (01:56:23):
It's we don't want

Paul Thurrott (01:56:24):
We some break back of the book

Leo Laporte (01:56:25):
Stories. Oh, good. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> that's coming up in just a second. We go to the back of the book, but first a word from Intel orchestrated by the experts at C D w today's <laugh> days. That's a good word for it. Bumpy hybrid work world. We know <laugh> the knowledgeable people at CDW really get what it takes to keep your business productive and pro protected. They understand that while your needs may change today, tomorrow and next week and all the time securing your hybrid workforce will always be a priority. That's why CDW works with Intel and can help design a secure remote management solution that works for you with Intel's vPro platform powered by 12th, gen Intel core processors and custom configured by CDW, you get hardware based multi-layer security that will protect against threats, but Intel's vPro platform. Doesn't stop there. It gives you peace of mind for your business and business class performance.

Leo Laporte (01:57:27):
All in one let's talk remote manageability, no matter where your hybrid workforce is, management can access control and fix devices from anywhere, even outside the firewall, which means no matter where your teams are working from you're still in control. And when you are in control, I think you can breathe a little, little bit better, a little sigh of relief with Intel's vPro platform powered by 12th gen Intel core processors. Your teams will be more productive and power through disruptions, letting you and your business focus on the things that really matter for secure remote management and security trust Intel vPro and it orchestration by C D w people who get it, or is it people who get it? I guess it's both learn more at cdw.com/intel client. And thank you, Intel and CDW for your support of windows weekly, you support us by going to cdw.com/intel client looking forward to my 12th gen Intel core processor with a vPro platform. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> someday it's in China right now, but someday <laugh>,

Paul Thurrott (01:58:38):
It'll be in June.

Leo Laporte (01:58:39):
It'll be here. No, I think, you know, they said it's on track to be delivered on time. So I think they probably have some idea of how long these holds take and et cetera, et cetera. Tip of the week from Paul Thurrott.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:55):
Yeah. So it's never too early to upgrade 2011 and 22, 20 22 H two.

Leo Laporte (01:59:01):
Can I get it now? Do I have to be in the, yes, you can. The Nope. Fasting. You

Paul Thurrott (01:59:04):
Can get it now. No. so there's two ways to do it. Well I should say two easy ways to do it. The first is to just enroll in the beta channel of the windows insider program and settings, right? You go to windows, update and windows insider a program, and just enroll it's like before you, you, you have to reboot and you you'll get the build, right? The thing to remember to do there. And I would tell you what it was if this thing ever just came up, but there's a, there's an interface in windows, update windows, insider, a program, or where you can check a box that says when the next version of windows is released, unenroll me from the windows insider program. Right. You wanna do that, right? Oh, there it is. It says stop getting preview builds. Right? So I am now cued cued for UN enrollment. It says unenroll, this device, is this

Leo Laporte (01:59:51):
The, the windows slamming

Paul Thurrott (01:59:54):
Windows slamming. Is

Leo Laporte (01:59:55):
This your slamming? The window closing the window, closing the magic window.

Paul Thurrott (01:59:58):
Oh, closing the magic window. Yeah. So they, they give you, they give you a way to get out of it. The idea here is you want to get into the, where, where can I get this built? Now I can get it in the beta channel. Right. Okay. So I enroll in the beta channel. Right. But I don't wanna keep getting beta built.

Leo Laporte (02:00:11):
CLA so you open and close the window at the same time. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:00:16):
Basically. Well, they'll they do it. They'll do it automatically. Oh, okay. Microsoft will automatically close it for you when it's, when it's time. Okay. So that's a nice, that's actually a nice feature. That's cool. You can do that. Yeah. So I've done that on one computer that works fine. Actually, I will say installing windows 11. That way to me took a long time. I wanna say from start to stop, it was over an hour, which, you know, if you're a Mac user, you're probably okay with, but on windows. Hey it's actually, Hey,

Leo Laporte (02:00:41):
Hey.

Paul Thurrott (02:00:42):
See what I did there?

Leo Laporte (02:00:43):
Yeah. It's usually two hours actually, to

Paul Thurrott (02:00:44):
Be honest. Yeah. No, it's what Mac updates are tough. Yeah. even small ones, but yeah, this one supposed to take, remember these things are supposed to take like 20 minutes. I don't know. That's a long time on this computer I'm using now, I will now say I downloaded the ISO because one of the interesting things about this release, so they don't do this for every build. In fact, they don't do it for many builds, but two weeks ago when they released this build, they made the ISO available. So I downloaded the ISO, ran set up from there, upgraded that way, rebooted cetera. That one actually took 20 to 25 minutes. That wasn't long at all. The interesting thing about doing it that way is my, this computer is not enrolled in the insider program. Right. So I got that from at the time it was both beta and dev channel. That's what that build is associated with. So when on this computer, when I go to windows, update windows, insider a program. Again, I, I, I just added up, why did I 10 minutes?

Leo Laporte (02:01:39):
Don't

Paul Thurrott (02:01:39):
It return? I know. Okay. I did check the box that said unenroll this thing, even though I'm not enrolled it, actually let me do that. I think somehow it understood that the code installed came from the windows insider program. So in both on both installs, regardless of how I did it, it's giving me the option to automatically unenroll. And that's what you're looking for. Right? So it's, it's may this thing probably won't be generally available until, you know, September at the earliest, I'm getting, it's gonna be October, but let's say September, October, it doesn't really matter. I never enrolled in the windows and insider program, but it knows that's where this came from. And I queued this thing. I said, I queued it for an UN enrollment. You could also unenroll this device immediately that will wipe out your <laugh> version of windows and install a fresh copy windows. Don't do that unless that's what you want to do. Anyway, the point of this is you can get this now, if you want it. I, I, is there some compelling reason to get this? No, but you're watching the show. You want, of course you want this you're this is what we do. So it is available if you want that now.

Paul Thurrott (02:02:43):
And I think next week, my app of the week's probably gonna be this camo thing I'm using. Cuz I think, I think like this has worked out pretty well, but I'm gonna test it more. I'll do it. I'll do some more shows and see how it goes. But this week it is YouTube. So YouTube is I don't talk about YouTube a lot. I actually use watch, I should say YouTube every single day. It's possibly the video streaming service I use the most. But there was a feature that was available to YouTube premium subscribers, which I am one, by the way, I have to say one of the things about YouTube. If you're gonna watch it a lot, pay to get rid of the ads. I don't know how anyone watches YouTube with ads, but there's a feature available to everyone now. Not just premium subscribers, but also just regularly users that actually shows you a graph of the most frequently replayed parts of any video.

Paul Thurrott (02:03:31):
So you can actually use this to jump to the parts of the video that people watch the most, which is kind of interesting, right? Like if you're a YouTuber, like you make YouTube videos, one of the things you learn is where people drop off in a video. So like a lot of people watch the first 30 seconds and go, eh, and then they leave. But if people watch it all the way through, there might be interesting parts where they go back and they watch it again. And again, you can actually get that in the player now. That's pretty cool. So also if you were in if you buy movies from Google or if you buy movies from services that are in is it movies anywhere or whatever that's called

Leo Laporte (02:04:07):
You have that old Disney movies anywhere it's

Paul Thurrott (02:04:09):
Movies, anywhere that pops. Yeah, yeah. Pops up on YouTube too. Right. And one of the things I found with YouTube is like, when we've done home swaps is sometimes I can't get my apps working on a TV, but YouTube works everywhere. <Laugh> right. So like a lot of my content we've only been able to play through YouTube. Works's fine. So nice. Yeah. That's actually

Leo Laporte (02:04:28):
A really good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Put it in the movies anywhere then you can always

Paul Thurrott (02:04:32):
Play it on YouTube. Yep. Yeah. And play it anywhere. I'll play it as in more places. Not anywhere. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's movies in more places of what they should call it.

Leo Laporte (02:04:40):
Movies in more places, but not exactly anywhere and empty to

Paul Thurrott (02:04:43):
It's not anywhere asterisks, but also SB

Leo Laporte (02:04:45):
Two <laugh>. Yeah. Should I my new Dell, should I push for windows? 22 H two or just stick with the, what? The windows

Paul Thurrott (02:04:54):
I, you know, I feel like I'm gonna be blamed when something goes wrong. Oh

Leo Laporte (02:04:57):
You are? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:04:58):
That's I don't see any reason not to,

Leo Laporte (02:04:59):
I don't see any reason. I'll do the magic window trick. Good.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:04):
This version of windows was tested <laugh> oh, like the last by last one by dozens, you know, I just I'll just throw that out there. It's been, that's a good point. Been testing for nine months. It's you know, so, so

Leo Laporte (02:05:14):
It should be in theory, even more stable.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:17):
Mm. No promises, but yeah. Should be okay.

Leo Laporte (02:05:20):
No, no. I'm not gonna hold you. I won't hold you responsible.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:24):
Yes, really? Yeah. I promise you say that. You say that now I promise <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:05:29):
I promise no, you know me, I'm gonna be asking you all sorts of windows questions as soon as it gets here, all

Paul Thurrott (02:05:34):
Sorts of you're gonna say, why are there, why is there a picture of a balloon when I go to search,

Leo Laporte (02:05:38):
I what's that Mary Jo Foley time for your enterprise pick of the week,

Mary Jo Foley (02:05:46):
Doing another Lennox pick, I've been doing a lot of these, which is kind of disturbing. Thank you. I talked recently about Microsoft's internal Lenox distributions. They have two that I know of. One is called CBL, common based Lenox Mariner. One's called CBL Delridge. It turns out the Mariner CBL team just started a blog, which is very interesting. They started it at the start of may. It's on GitHub. So if you go to GitHub and you search for the Mariner dev blog, it's there and in the blog introduction, they say we're highlighting the features and changes to the CBL Mariner distribution for the broader Linux community outside Microsoft.

Leo Laporte (02:06:36):
Oh, interesting.

Mary Jo Foley (02:06:37):
Huh. Yeah. Our intent is to update this blog monthly and give you more of a technical perspective. We want to outline the changes and the reasons behind some of our design decisions that we're making. So that's kind of interesting that they're doing that and you, it kind of makes me say, why are they doing it? But yeah, if you care about that and you're kind of intrigued what Microsoft is doing with its own Lenux you should go to GitHub and search for the Mariner blog. And then I also just wanted to remind people, if you too wanna follow along with all the build news we talked about earlier today, you can download and check out the build book of news, just search anywhere for build 20, 22 book of news. And you get the full book that we got when we were being briefed even a little more than we got when we were being briefed all with hyperlinks so that you can go right to the posts that explain all the features that you care about. And while we're doing windows weekly, I'm watching, there's a talk on at build right now with rich Turner who we already referenced. And he said, project, Volterra more details will be coming this summer.

Leo Laporte (02:07:46):
Ah,

Mary Jo Foley (02:07:47):
So you're not gonna have to wait till the end of the year to find out

Leo Laporte (02:07:50):
That's somewhere in Australia. Probably <laugh> yeah. That's a good point. A summary. Isn't the

Mary Jo Foley (02:07:56):
Summary. No, I bet. It's I bet it's here cuz he lives here. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:07:59):
So cool. That's good. Yep. That's exciting. Yep. You got a code name for us. Mary Jo.

Mary Jo Foley (02:08:07):
Yep. So Zach Boden over at windows central, who is very good at, with the code names. He said the code name for project Volera even though project Volera is a code name. It had its own code name internally and it was called black rock. That makes sense. When you see what the box looks like, it looks like a black rock black rock. It's like that's it <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:08:28):
Well, plus a video they made was all about black rocks. That's

Mary Jo Foley (02:08:30):
Right. It was and rocks. There were lots of rocks, rocks being cracked open, right? Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah. So for what it's worth, there's your code name? Within a code name? Black rock and project. Volera

Leo Laporte (02:08:44):
It is odd that a project that has a code name. Yeah. As an internal code name.

Mary Jo Foley (02:08:50):
It, it is right. It is odd. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:08:53):
All right. I'm ready for some beer. I don't know about you, but I am ready for some beer.

Mary Jo Foley (02:08:59):
Memorial day weekend. This weekend here in the United States, kind of the unofficial start of summer. Right. so I'm like, okay, what is a beer that people like to have when they're outside barbecues? Hopefully weather permitting. And there's one that immediately comes to mind from Bell's brewing called Uber on ale. They call it their beer that signifies the start of summer. And I've seen it in stores here now. It's it's a very light wheat ale for people who like wheat beers, only 5.8%. And some people drink it with a slice of orange in it. Mm I've tried it. It's not bad. Mm. But it's, it's a very good beer. One of my neighbors in my building, this is his beer. Like when this comes out every year, he just immediately starts buying cases of his beer. <Laugh> that's his beer.

Leo Laporte (02:09:50):
That's that's serious. I,

Mary Jo Foley (02:09:52):
Yeah, he's very serious about his Obon, but yeah, you can find it anywhere. Pretty much. It's in cans and it's around. It's a good one. It's a very tasty wheat ale. If you like wheat beer is

Leo Laporte (02:10:02):
What is, is Oprah on? Does that mean something? The Wordon I don't well, he was of course the king of the fairies in the Midsummer night dream, but I don't think that's what they're talking about. Maybe they are, I don't know. Maybe where is, where is bells? Is it a local? Is it New York? 

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:19):
No. They're in Michigan.

Leo Laporte (02:10:21):
Michigan? Yep. Well, over on Midsummer's night dream, I'm thinking that's that's probably it. You think that's it? Yeah. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:28):
They're in. Oh yeah. Kalamazoo. They're in Kalamazoo. Sorry. Kalamazoo. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (02:10:33):
There's an Vero.

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:35):
Are they? No, that's wrong. Wait, I have to give you the right place where bells is. I'm like, it's like Kalamazoo. Is it <laugh> where is it? They're they're blocking me for not being 21. Come on guys. I'm way past that year.

Leo Laporte (02:10:48):
Don't you hate that way

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:49):
Past don't you hate, hate

Leo Laporte (02:10:50):
That you can't even see a game trailer if you're under 21, but if you wanna buy no,

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:54):
It's it's Kalamazoo. I'm right? Yeah, it

Leo Laporte (02:10:56):
Is Kalamazoo. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Kids. I think we have to call it a day.

Mary Jo Foley (02:11:04):
Yep. I think we did as much damage as we could and build.

Paul Thurrott (02:11:08):
Now, the time has come to say

Leo Laporte (02:11:10):
Goodbye to all the family, Mary Jo, all thera thera

Paul Thurrott (02:11:17):
Bot and

Leo Laporte (02:11:19):
<Laugh> Mary Jo Foley is@herznetblogallaboutmicrosoft.com is the easy way to find it. That's really lots of coverage of build there and more to come. I'm sure. Paul Thurrott writes@Thurrott.com become a premium member. So you can read the history windows history series he is been doing. That's really great. Really interesting. And of course his field guide windows 10 is@leanpub.com. We get 'em together. The two of them he's on the left. She's on the right <laugh> every,

Paul Thurrott (02:11:53):
A little bit country. She's

Leo Laporte (02:11:54):
She's a little rock and roll. I think it's true. Every Wednesday, 11 Pacific 2:00 PM Eastern 1800 UTC. If you want to join us live, you can go to live TV, there's live audio and video streams there. If you're watching or listening live chat, live@ircdotTWiT.tv, cuz they're all doing the same thing. So are the folks in our club TWiT via our fabulous club, TWiT discord. There's some good stuff. Coming up in the club, we've got Stacy's book club termination shock by Neil Stevenson is the book of the month. Next month, Alex Lindsay will do an AMA with aunt Pruitt. We've got a lot of other great stuff planned, including we're hoping sometimes soon to launch a show with one of our TWiT stars. The nice thing about the club is it, it allows us to launch new shows like this week in space without advertising support because the club TWiT members support it with their dollars.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:49):
Did you, did you talk to the author? I forgot his name. I'm sorry. I've 

Leo Laporte (02:12:53):
Kurt fel. Yeah, that, that was great. He's fascinating. Nice. 35

Paul Thurrott (02:12:58):
Minutes away from finishing that book, according God audible. And, and I just don't want it to end.

Leo Laporte (02:13:03):
Yeah. <laugh> well, you know, I should have told him this, but I was saying in our TWiTt social, our Macon incidents instance, that it kind of reminds the three of us of those great computer science books, like show G Pasal, Zach showstopper or Tracy Kitter, soul of a new machine. You know, and so it's, it's that kind of story of an era at a, at a company. And it's fun to fun to read that. It's yeah. It's fantastic. Of course. Mary Jo has no interest. <Laugh> she's just, unless you wanna hate read it, hate, read it. No,

Mary Jo Foley (02:13:33):
I wanna hate actually way. Although there are it. No, just is apple. Right? So it's all apple. I would like it. A lot of it is, but it's all bad about apple.

Leo Laporte (02:13:41):
No, you know, I mean it's not all bad. We're all good. It's it's pretty honest. It makes you think that Johnny, I was kind of a Dick, although I asked sure.

Mary Jo Foley (02:13:50):
Everyone kind think that what Tim

Paul Thurrott (02:13:51):
Cook

Mary Jo Foley (02:13:52):
Too. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (02:13:53):
Tim cook doesn't come off all that.

Leo Laporte (02:13:54):
Great. No, I asked trip that he said, no, no, there it wasn't negative. He said, well, maybe it's just, you know, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Paul Thurrott (02:14:01):
They do such a good job of managing the message that I think to apple fans that will feel negative, but it's just real.

Mary Jo Foley (02:14:07):
Right. So maybe I'd like it then if it, if it, I think you would,

Leo Laporte (02:14:10):
I really do interest.

Mary Jo Foley (02:14:11):
It is. Yeah, no, I like, I like those kind of sagas that explain why a company is the way it is. Right. <laugh> yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:14:19):
So all the stuff like they were like, you know, iPhone production dropped like 8%, one quarter and they were like, and then you find out what actually happened. Yeah. And compare it to the nonsense that they said publicly.

Leo Laporte (02:14:28):
Right. So that's

Mary Jo Foley (02:14:29):
Really, that's cool for people

Leo Laporte (02:14:31):
That is good. People like me who are following this, you know, day in, day out. Yeah. Through that whole period, hearing this backstory is always interesting. No, that's great. Really is happening. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:14:40):
It's so great. It's a great book

Leo Laporte (02:14:42):
That is on our we actually, it's a triangulation. So even though I don't do the show weekly anymore, but every once in a while we'll get a good interview. And so I put that on the triangulation feed and on the TWiTtter events feed. So if you subscribe to either of those, okay,

Paul Thurrott (02:14:54):
I'll go, I'll

Leo Laporte (02:14:55):
Go watch that. You will get it. Yeah. He was good. At first he was a little reticent. But I think I drew him out over the period of the hour,

Paul Thurrott (02:15:02):
But he knows you're not invited to the apple events. So how trust me. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (02:15:05):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:15:06):
Oh, he's describing the Steve jobs theater where they hold these events. Now each seat in the Steve jobs, $1,700, $14,000 thousand. I'm sorry,

Mary Jo Foley (02:15:16):
What

Leo Laporte (02:15:16):
Each seat, because they're made of the same leather,

Paul Thurrott (02:15:20):
Same Italian leather

Leo Laporte (02:15:21):
Products, Italian find it, same Ferrari leather that they use in Ferrari automobiles. The, the me, the whole thing at these four there's 2000 seats in there. $14,000 each. And that's the other thing that's interesting in this book is like the money they spend on silly things. And it's all that was all Johnny ive. You know,

Mary Jo Foley (02:15:42):
I think I might like it. It sounds full enough walls,

Paul Thurrott (02:15:44):
But I built that they built that new building and everyone was walking into doors,

Leo Laporte (02:15:48):
All

Mary Jo Foley (02:15:48):
Glass

Leo Laporte (02:15:48):
Put dots on the doors, so they wouldn't walk into 'em and they call 'em Johnny Ives, tears, Johnny Ives,

Mary Jo Foley (02:15:53):
Tears. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (02:15:55):
Excellent. I really think you'd like the book I really do.

Leo Laporte (02:15:58):
Anyway yeah, that we did that, that actually wasn't part of club TWiT, but we do have a lot of stuff that is only club TWiT. Like the untitled Lennox show, Dick de Bartel's, GIZ FIS. There's a lot of stuff in there that goes in TWiTt plus feed. If you know, Paul and Mary Joe are members, if you'd like to be a member seven bucks a month, go to TWiTt.tv/club TWiT, that money goes not into my pocket. <Laugh> it goes directly to support programming. And you know, it helps us a lot to be honest with you during the ups and downs of COVID we, it's been very, very helpful. So TWiTt to TV slash club TWiTt, and you get, I think you get lots of benefits, including ad free versions of all the shows cuz you're you're giving us money. We don't need to get advertisers on those. Paul, Mary, Jo, whoops, more beer Paul and Mary Jo. Thank you. I press the beer button by accent. <Laugh> thank you for being here. Come back again please. Next week. And we will see you then on windows weekly!